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Tiler Kiwi posted:oh man I was writing a reply since i thought you were wrong, but all the while i was like, do I know what I'm talking about??? so im kind of glad i got to just delete all of it instead of trying to clumsily parse how the rules of energy conservation and force transmission work. Okay, this is right: It has to do with the momentum of the projectile. Momentum = mass x velocity and, since velocity is a vector, it has a directional (i.e. vertical and horizontal) component. Immediately after a projectile is fired it has the highest momentum. The vertical component of the projectile's momentum is constantly being reduced by 9.8 m/s due to gravity and both the vertical and horizontal component of the projectile's momentum are being affected by wind and friction with the air. The longer a projectile stays in flight, the more its velocity is reduced, which also reduces its momentum. Since force = change in momentum over time, at the point of impact you're reducing the projectile's momentum to zero over a relatively short amount of time, which imparts a correspondingly large force to the target. Since the mass of a projectile like a bullet or arrow is usually low and doesn't change, the force imparted on the target by the change in momentum is primarily due to the change in the projectile's velocity, which is usually very high and changes a lot on impact. Since the projectile's velocity is constantly being reduced the entire time it stays in flight, the longer it stays in flight, like when shooting indirectly at a target, the more the force of its impact is reduced.
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Apr 30, 2020 19:38
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the terms get kind of confusing since you generally have to fire at _some_ kind of arc to hit things; from what I know of ballistic arcs tho there's generally a high angle and a low angle you can hit things at a given velocity with and the high angle is the one people consider when they talk about "indirect" and the low is "direct" what i know about ballsitic arcs is mainly frustratingly trying to rip off other people's code and cursing their implementation decisions so take what you will
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Apr 30, 2020 19:55
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StashAugustine posted:this is where TW's hilariously unrealistic command and control plays a factor, though even with stuff like field of glory (and pike&shot/sengoku jidai using the early modern rules) you can simulate that by just limiting line of sight it does feel better with warhammer fantasy battles as the source material rather than history
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Apr 30, 2020 20:00
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Tabletop Warhammer Fantasy has (or used to have, at least) the rule that only soldiers in the first rank could fire missile weapons, precisely because the ones behind can't aim properly. There were a few exceptions (such as skirmishers, don't even have "ranks"), but most units worked that way. It also differentiated between long and short range.
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Apr 30, 2020 20:06
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Tiler Kiwi posted:the terms get kind of confusing since you generally have to fire at _some_ kind of arc to hit things; from what I know of ballistic arcs tho there's generally a high angle and a low angle you can hit things at a given velocity with and the high angle is the one people consider when they talk about "indirect" and the low is "direct" I mean you would have to arc your shots some to compensate for the distance to your target, but you are essentially still doing direct shots in that you are trying to get off a more or less accurate shot at a target you can see at relatively close range. This is borne home from contemporary illustrations of archers (which by the way often depcict the drawing and loosing technique pretty accurately) and from the evidence pointing towards the engagement range for archers equipped with long-ranged bows such as English longbows and steppe composite bows being somewhere in the order of 50-100m, with longer range shooting being only meant for harassing. Also brought up in that blog post is something that I've looked at in the past (and will have to look at again now) which is the drills and techniques practiced by Mamluk cavalry which probably reflected very much the warfare of steppe horse-archers (being that they were recruited from Turkic slaves, preferably young men, probably because these could be assumed to already have some military skills that were seen as desired).They practiced shooting while riding at targets at very close range, either targets you rode past or targets you rode at and over (you would essentially be shooting an enemy as you charged him down) and stationary and extremely rapid shooting (you hold ~5 arrows in one of your hands and go through all of them in a couple of seconds at most) at close range. I can't remember if this was from a Mamluk manual or something recorded as practiced by Turks in general, but they also would shoot dismounted at long ranged targets, this seems to have sometimes been indirectly at extreme ranges (I think sometimes lying down and drawing bows with their feet, perhaps special bows, can't remember). But this was in all likelihood harassment done without much expectation of causing serious injury or death, and probably wasn't done en masse over longer periods out of ammunition conservation concerns.
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Apr 30, 2020 20:13
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NeverHelm posted:Tabletop Warhammer Fantasy has (or used to have, at least) the rule that only soldiers in the first rank could fire missile weapons, precisely because the ones behind can't aim properly. There were a few exceptions (such as skirmishers, don't even have "ranks"), but most units worked that way. It also differentiated between long and short range. The Warhammer Fantasy tabletop game does indeed have a couple of occurences like this where it's actually surprisingly realistic, and also things such as how spears are portrayed as a more lethal weapon than sword and shield due to the reach and formation fighting advantages being portrayed as allowing multiple ranks (depending on the race an the spears in question IIRC) to attack, differentiated also from sword and board type units being worse at killing but better at staying alive and tarpitting by receiving an armor bonus from having both a hand weapon and a shield. I kind of wish that Total War games did things a bit more like this instead of the old RTS rock-paper-scissors model where spear beats cav-sword beats spear-cav beats sword. Also that they did things like perhaps having rank bonus to morale and maybe fighting stats, to encourage and actually make deeper formations at times more desirable over thin lines.
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Apr 30, 2020 20:22
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Speaking of tabletop, anyone played with boyz will be boyz?
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Apr 30, 2020 20:25
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Tiler Kiwi posted:the terms get kind of confusing since you generally have to fire at _some_ kind of arc to hit things; from what I know of ballistic arcs tho there's generally a high angle and a low angle you can hit things at a given velocity with and the high angle is the one people consider when they talk about "indirect" and the low is "direct" Since velocity is a vector, it has both a magnitude and a direction. When fired at a high angle, the direction of a projectile's velocity is mostly vertical, while the direction is mostly horizontal at a low angle. The magnitude of the velocity at firing remains constant, but the direction changes. (If you understand trigonometry, it helps to think of it as a triangle: the magnitude is the hypotenuse and the vertical and horizontal components are the sides. You can create a bunch of different triangles with the same length hypotenuse by changing the lengths of the sides.) Since shots fired at a high angle have to travel a much farther distance to the target (all the way up and down the ballistic arc compared to the relatively flat trajectory of a low angle shot), they spend more time in flight, and have more time for their velocity to be reduced by gravity, wind, and friction, which also reduces their momentum and the force they deliver to the target.
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Apr 30, 2020 20:38
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Which sucks if you're fighting knights but is perfectly serviceable when you're fighting the rabble.
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Apr 30, 2020 22:13
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dogstile posted:Which sucks if you're fighting knights but is perfectly serviceable when you're fighting the rabble. The idea that medieval armies featured masses of poorly armed, barely trained conscripted peasants or whatever one would associate with "rabble" is more or less pure fantasy. e: Feudal levies mostly consisted of professional and semi-professional (in that they were part-time between warriors and self-owning farmers) soldiers largely drawn from the nobility (the low nobility by the way is kind of a weird class they weren't especially wealthy or powerful but had privilege as being part of the free, often landowning, military elite) and their household forces supplemented by full-time mercenaries. Infantry were not the best equipped of these soldiers typically, but they would most likely have a helmet, a shield, a spear or missile weapon (professional crossbowmen were highly sought after and were highly paid and well equipped) and some kind of armor, typically a mix of padded cloth (which is more effective than you often assume) and metal pieces (chain, ring, splint, later plate). Even in societies were peasant levies figured as part of the military such as in Anglo-Saxon England and Scandinavia these were also not the conscript rabble popular culture often assumes, but more akin to the soldiers from the low nobility mentioned above, they owned land and in doing so owed military service and were required to be able to equip themselves and train for battle, so essentially part-time soldiers. This was more indicative and typical of societies which featured high rates of land ownership outside of the formal nobiltiy and a mostly or completely free peasantry. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 22:23
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Tiler Kiwi posted:oh man I was writing a reply since i thought you were wrong, but all the while i was like, do I know what I'm talking about??? so im kind of glad i got to just delete all of it instead of trying to clumsily parse how the rules of energy conservation and force transmission work. Basically yes, fluid dynamics is complicated as all gently caress and there is a reason those that do it specialise in it and will generally study it for 4+ years The fletchings on arrows are designed to make them fly true, so that SHOULD help them avoid tumbling While I don't know what the terminal velocity of an arrow might be, it's probably a safe bet to assume it'd be lower than whatever the launch speed is The other factor is the top of the curve - there's a point where your arrow's net motion will be approaching zero, at that point any wind changes will have a drastic effect on accuracy So you'd have both accuracy and loss of momentum as factors to consider when looking at indirect fire
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Apr 30, 2020 22:38
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Randarkman posted:The Warhammer Fantasy tabletop game does indeed have a couple of occurences like this where it's actually surprisingly realistic, and also things such as how spears are portrayed as a more lethal weapon than sword and shield due to the reach and formation fighting advantages being portrayed as allowing multiple ranks (depending on the race an the spears in question IIRC) to attack, differentiated also from sword and board type units being worse at killing but better at staying alive and tarpitting by receiving an armor bonus from having both a hand weapon and a shield. I mentioned it but check out Pike&Shot and Sengoku Jidai, plus presumably Field of Glory 2 but I haven't bought it yet. They're turn based and mostly focused on quick battle but they model a lot of this well, including maneuver being extremely sticky.
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Apr 30, 2020 22:38
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Randarkman posted:The idea that medieval armies featured masses of poorly armed, barely trained conscripted peasants or whatever one would associate with "rabble" is more or less pure fantasy. it's funny how this empire forces in this game with griffins and dragons and vampires get this more right than many "historical" games
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Apr 30, 2020 22:40
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StashAugustine posted:I mentioned it but check out Pike&Shot and Sengoku Jidai, plus presumably Field of Glory 2 but I haven't bought it yet. They're turn based and mostly focused on quick battle but they model a lot of this well, including maneuver being extremely sticky. These are tabletop games?
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Apr 30, 2020 22:40
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Randarkman posted:These are tabletop games? Pike and Shot is a video game, albeit only in the loosest sense of "video". I don't recognize the others.
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Apr 30, 2020 22:43
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Randarkman posted:These are tabletop games? Field of Glory is a tabletop ruleset that got adapted (with a bit of tweaking) into those games. I haven't played the last since I'm short on money and half the army lists are behind DLC but it's ancient/medieval rules and the graphics are way prettier https://store.steampowered.com/app/377520/Pike_and_Shot__Campaigns/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/397190/Sengoku_Jidai_Shadow_of_the_Shogun/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/660160/Field_of_Glory_II/
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Apr 30, 2020 22:49
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Talking of spears, I think a sort of reverse-charge bonus effect would do well for them and other polearms. Only when braced, against large, and facing-towards, give them a similar damage bonus. Because as is, most decent cavalry can charge headfirst into a spearwall, get some shock damage and then pull back with minimal damage.
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Apr 30, 2020 22:49
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Every good spear unit has a bonus to hit and damage vs large. Maybe a small snare effect, fading over 15 seconds?
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Apr 30, 2020 23:04
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Mordja posted:Talking of spears, I think a sort of reverse-charge bonus effect would do well for them and other polearms. Only when braced, against large, and facing-towards, give them a similar damage bonus. Because as is, most decent cavalry can charge headfirst into a spearwall, get some shock damage and then pull back with minimal damage. Yeah that wouldn't be too bad. Really though spears should be pretty good at charging as well if you wanted to get it a bit more right, you need only look at historical example like hoplites and early modern pikemen for examples of spears and pikes being excellent weapons on the charge or in a swift advance. Also just look at it and you can imagine the advantage a formation of spearmen have over someone not armed with spears when they're charging. The thing is that the video game representation which presents spears as kind of a rubbish weapon when not defending against cavalry is really just completely wrong. As part of an articulated heavy infantry formation spears had the advantage over pretty much all other melee weapons both on attack and on the defense. I'm not sure what perhaps the best way to represent the formation fighting advantage and reach would be in Total War: Warhammer, which generally chooses to do away with unit abilities for normal units (which I agree with). Though perhaps you could do something like give them an ability which sort of combines elements of the High Elf martial prowess and the Skaven strength in numbers buff. Whic,h if you want to do it sort of accurately, would give a bonus to melee attack and melee defence (spearmen and their comrades to their sides can swipe and parry away attacks in a pretty big area infront of them), increased model mass, charge bonus and possibly weapon strength, also tie charge bonus vs large to this. I'd actually do away with the flat bonus versus large for spears (the advantage from reach and formation fighting is now reflected in more general bonuses) and reserve this for weapons like halberdes and glaives and other larger weapons that inflict more damage. To reflect the fact that these advantages are dependent on maintaining a coherent formation I'd have the unit lose the buff if they either go below 50% health (have to maintain numbers to have an effective formation) or their morale goes to shaken or wavering, so the way to gently caress up spears would be to wittle them down with ranged attacks or hit them in the rear and flank for morale shocks to take away their buff (without which they should pretty low stats). Also like the Skaven's strength in numbers have their speed be reduced as long as they have the buff to represent having to stay in formation. Sword and board units could have higher base stats so they'll be more consistent after receving casualties and morale shocks, and articulated infantry types perhaps also should have a version of the buff, but it only provides charge defence against large, model mass and maybe some melee defence (and goes away in the same manner). You don't necessarily need a spear formation to halt a cavalry charge, what you need is a solid mass of men that horses will be hesistant to charge into, charge defence against large abstractly portrays this by taking away the charge bonus. Spears when "in formation" would still be better though (because of their combat buffs), but sword-and-board would still be capable of negating that charge bonus if braced. e: Under this system I'm sort of thinking of, High Elves' martial mastery would instead just be them getting a better bonus from this and maybe taking longer to lose the benefits (and not suffering a speed penalty). Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 23:10
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There's a "unit formation" mod which helps a bit, but it's apparently broken right now. e: Actually someone made a fixed version (which I've promptly installed). Though it does more than just spearman formations, but in general it does make things more difficult for cavalry. VVVV In fact the formations are taken straight from Attila, albeit not all of them could be ported for whatever technical reasons. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 23:13
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That was a thing in Attila, braced spears would reflect charge damage back on the charging unit. Yes, it was hilarious to watch a cav unit charge spears and melt. I played with it in a bunch of battles and I think my opinion on it was pretty mixed. It's neat from a realism standpoint, but it makes shock cav really bad. I think they found a nice balance between cav, monsters, magic, melee and ranged in warhammer 2, if they implemented damage reflect I suspect it would just make shock cav super bad again.
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Apr 30, 2020 23:15
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SFO has a thing for helfs which gives all of their basic units an effect that buffs up to 2 other nearby units. So you're encouraged to form them into lines and blocks to get maximum benefit. Archers make other nearby archers slightly better, spears make other spears better etc. It works well with the only downside being that if you form ranks you sometimes end up with your archers giving your spearmen better ranged accuracy while the spears give the archers better melee stats, because the buffs don't target the most appropriate unit. It also has the "cavalry bane" effect for halberd units which imparts major penalties to charge power and unit acceleration on contact, making it harder for them to get away and presumably blunting the charge too. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 23:15
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Play battle for middle earth and charge a unit of isengard spear uruks with Rohan cavalry That always seemed like a good way of doing it
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Apr 30, 2020 23:28
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Ham Sandwiches posted:That was a thing in Attila, braced spears would reflect charge damage back on the charging unit. Yes, it was hilarious to watch a cav unit charge spears and melt. I played with it in a bunch of battles and I think my opinion on it was pretty mixed. It's neat from a realism standpoint, but it makes shock cav really bad. It's in Three Kingdoms and shock cav is super super good there. You only charge braced spears head on once in that game. That's enough to learn.
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Apr 30, 2020 23:29
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For sure, except the AI is really good at picketing cav with spears so that means more cav micro to get a charge off. My sense is that in the warhammer 2 metagame and the prevalence of spears, and given things like dealing with magic / flying monsters disrupting them, shock cav would be a lot less effective. A future where you can't charge goblins with demigryph knights... 
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Apr 30, 2020 23:34
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McGavin posted:Since velocity is a vector, it has both a magnitude and a direction. When fired at a high angle, the direction of a projectile's velocity is mostly vertical, while the direction is mostly horizontal at a low angle. The magnitude of the velocity at firing remains constant, but the direction changes. (If you understand trigonometry, it helps to think of it as a triangle: the magnitude is the hypotenuse and the vertical and horizontal components are the sides. You can create a bunch of different triangles with the same length hypotenuse by changing the lengths of the sides.) I know; you have to use trig / vectors and the like all the time in game code, which I deal with. Thats the only reason I was confused at first, which is mainly because game code takes place mostly in the magical hypothetical land of physics where everything is a frictionless ball moving in a vacuum, so things you throw up in the simple simulation come down at the exact inverse y speed as they went up with. Terminal velocity doesn't seem to play into it as much as the horrible fact that air exists and does things. In short, drag is such a drag. Maybe "newtons third law is a drag". really the point is that im lazy and i want to pretend all forces are constant, again. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 00:34 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 00:31
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High Elf magic means their arrows are frictionless point masses in a vacuum, that's why Sisters of Avelorn are so good
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May 1, 2020 04:08
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Turns out the unit formation mod is pretty mediocre and doesn't help against cavalry all that much. It's still nice enough that I'll keep using it, but a lot of the formations end up being weak because they disperse your soldiers too much which reduces damage significantly.
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May 1, 2020 04:08
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Looks like there was an update to the press branch, start the hype machines! Hopefully that means we're looking at new DLC within the next few weeks.
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May 1, 2020 04:14
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I hope it's coming soonish. Doing co-op with my friend and we're both very much eager to see Greenskins given a boost. One of my favourite games of TW:W was my second playthrough where I sent Grimgor up and stopped the End Times and honestly I haven't touched them at all in 2, and I want a good reason to just brutalize the map in a green tide once again.
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May 1, 2020 07:00
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StashAugustine posted:also here's a decent blog post by a milhist academic on archery at range that talks about total war a bit: https://acoup.blog/2019/07/04/collections-archery-distance-and-kiting/ oh yeah did want to say this is a goddamn pro click itd be a pain to balance but actually modeling how damage drops off more at range would probably actually improve the game. add more distinction between projectiles, offer a choice in how to spend your ammo, and make kiting a little less powerful. I'd actually think it'd be cool to model how charging forward on a horse and firing would increase the total velocity of a weapon; probably not an actual physics simulation but an abstraction for those types of skirmishers to make their use a little less braindead and easier to counter. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 08:51 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 08:48
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Randarkman posted:The idea that medieval armies featured masses of poorly armed, barely trained conscripted peasants or whatever one would associate with "rabble" is more or less pure fantasy. Oh you misunderstand. Fighting the rabble is the part where the soldiers have beaten the enemy force and are happily murdering anyone who stands in their way in the countryside.
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May 1, 2020 12:30
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Just misread the launcher hashtag as #stayhomeslayelves. Made me chuckle for a bit. Very prudent advice, that.
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May 1, 2020 12:35
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My Knights Errant and Knights of the Realm just lost to Reiksguard, going to go kill myself out of the shame NB: Both of my units were at less than half strength, still no excuse for chivalrous whatever
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May 1, 2020 13:05
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dogstile posted:Oh you misunderstand. Fighting the rabble is the part where the soldiers have beaten the enemy force and are happily murdering anyone who stands in their way in the countryside. and then you have a revolt and suddenly all these peasants are able to muster elite armies by selling their wooden forks
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May 1, 2020 16:11
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On my 3rd Norsca attempt. I'm not too proud to say I bumped campaign down to Medium from Hard. Been playing at Hard/Hard. Tried Throgg this time around and I think I like it better? I'm a bit further from getting my poo poo raided every 2 seconds from the empire, but now I am trying to not confederate with the World Walkers and they just will not stop sending poo poo my way. Was trying to do the 1 army, just 1 province bit and it's going... okay? Managed to confederate with the first Norsca tribe to complete my province and I got their frost wyrm, which has helped. That monster hunt frost wyrm fight is a pain in the rear end. A bunch of Marauder javs did not work. Going to try the Frost Troll / Armored Skin Wolves route. I kinda get the feeling that I should have just given up and played Beastmen on the 3rd try, but there is something about Norsca that I'm enjoying. Just not sure I could name it.
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May 1, 2020 16:19
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pnutz posted:and then you have a revolt and suddenly all these peasants are able to muster elite armies by selling their wooden forks Isn't that just French history?
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May 1, 2020 16:20
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Internet Explorer posted:On my 3rd Norsca attempt. I'm not too proud to say I bumped campaign down to Medium from Hard. Been playing at Hard/Hard. Tried Throgg this time around and I think I like it better? I'm a bit further from getting my poo poo raided every 2 seconds from the empire, but now I am trying to not confederate with the World Walkers and they just will not stop sending poo poo my way. Was trying to do the 1 army, just 1 province bit and it's going... okay? Managed to confederate with the first Norsca tribe to complete my province and I got their frost wyrm, which has helped. That monster hunt frost wyrm fight is a pain in the rear end. A bunch of Marauder javs did not work. Going to try the Frost Troll / Armored Skin Wolves route.
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May 1, 2020 17:25
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I'm on the same boat as Norsca 
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May 1, 2020 17:44
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I'm on the same boat as Norsca in terms of "I should probably play someone else but something about it is enjoyable". I have found trying to go one-province impossible because there is always another warlord around the corner trying to raze your poo poo, so it requires a defense army that you cannot afford or to just let it happen. When I tried letting it happen as World Walkers when I migrated to Skaeggi, I still lost in the end because instead of having to defend Norsca I had to defend Hexoatl from nearby DE, HE, New World Colonies, and Savage Orcs. I think the biggest problem is that Norscan unwalled settlements are catnip for the AI. Troll King seems to be a bit better in this regard. The Dwarfs to the east of me are buddy buddy with no effort on my part. I've stomped the World Walkers into the ground and put a bunch of ruins between us and then they accepted peace. We'll see how it goes, but I am feeling a lot more secure with my current setup.
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May 1, 2020 17:57
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