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Stux posted:i dont think theres anyone that thinks that, the people who think joel is good obviously think they suck, and the people who understood the very simple story know both suck
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May 1, 2020 02:47
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Cuntellectual posted:No, actually, the reason I say TLoU is at best competent and is more accurately described as overrated trash. And furthermore, why isn’t Final Fantasy the last one? I can tell right from the title screen this game is gonna be a shitshow, because I am very smart you see.
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May 1, 2020 02:54
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Dewgy posted:And furthermore, why isn’t Final Fantasy the last one? I can tell right from the title screen this game is gonna be a shitshow, because I am very smart you see. Even if this is a joke, which I doubt it is, this is one of the dumbest defences of anything I've ever read and illustrates my point about the sort of people who stan the game quite nicely.
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May 1, 2020 03:00
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I ain't readin all that poo poo.
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May 1, 2020 03:02
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Cuntellectual posted:Even if this is a joke, which I doubt it is, this is one of the dumbest defences of anything I've ever read and illustrates my point about the sort of people who stan the game quite nicely. A lot of your gameplay complaints about TLoU are "why doesn't ellie arbitrarily get the player killed" which is hilarious coming from someone who heaps praises upon the genius gameplay of.. spec ops, the line.
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May 1, 2020 03:08
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Cuntellectual posted:Even if this is a joke, which I doubt it is, this is one of the dumbest defences of anything I've ever read and illustrates my point about the sort of people who stan the game quite nicely. I’m saying your criticism sucks poo poo and you’re not as deep as you think you are. Like, this isn’t even specifically defending TLoU, that is some of the worst critique I’ve ever read, and it’s incredibly obvious how up your own rear end you are.
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May 1, 2020 03:09
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Cuntellectual posted:No, actually, the reason I say TLoU is at best competent and is more accurately described as overrated trash. lol youre a lot dumber than you think you are sucks you have to find out like this
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May 1, 2020 03:13
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RevolverDivider posted:You're completely insane. Specs ops is just heart of darkness but integrates all its elements to form a coherent experience. From the type of game (shooter) to the story it tries to tell (war is bad and it will gently caress you up) all the decisions that the devs made enforce that narrative. Hell the more you play the more insane the game gets. TLOU has the better production values but if you ask me: recomend a game that will make you think something more than just press the buttons i would say play specs ops first. W3 and New Vegas (specially dead money) are my favorite games of all time so maybe what the gently caress do i know.
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May 1, 2020 03:14
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Dewgy posted:I’m saying your criticism sucks poo poo and you’re not as deep as you think you are. It's great how literally every defence of TLoU is "You're wrong and stupid" because no valid defences can be made for it on it's own merits due to how quickly they crumble when compared to things that are actually any good. You don't need to write several paragraphs, or anything particularly deep! Just something above the soy face tier. Yardbomb posted:I ain't readin all that poo poo. it's cool, I don't expect tlou fans to be big on reading. Panzeh posted:A lot of your gameplay complaints about TLoU are "why doesn't ellie arbitrarily get the player killed" which is hilarious coming from someone who heaps praises upon the genius gameplay of.. spec ops, the line. Since I take it you didn't see the ones about QTEs, tedious filler 'puzzles', poor controls, failure to integrate story and gameplay in even the slightest way, and tacked on crafting I'll re-state them for you here. Also, I don't think Spec Ops has genius gameplay. I think it has moderately good gameplay that integrates well with the story it's telling, innovates in some interesting ways and builds/populates levels in a way that makes for some good challenge that ramps up appropriately, none of which can be said for the last of us. You also seem to misunderstand what I said about Ellie. It's not "why doesn't Ellie arbitrarily get the played killed", it's "how does this game with such a swollen budget not manage to either have AI that's baseline competent or failing that, design levels in such a way that Ellie doesn't literally physically stand in front of enemies that are searching for you?" Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 03:33 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 03:18
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i think ur missing the point which is you just wrote a ton of words that read like a guy on youtube circa 2010 who has angry or hate in his name and just uploaded his first video essay its v funny lol
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May 1, 2020 03:21
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Stux posted:i think ur missing the point which is you just wrote a ton of words that read like a guy on youtube circa 2010 who has angry or hate in his name and just uploaded his first video essay its v funny lol I like analyzing things and the way that one of the worst posters on the games forum gets caveman angry when he tries to read it is one of those things that makes it worthwhile.
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May 1, 2020 03:23
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I did like how spec ops made everything including the loading screens more and more insane as you went on. Truly what TLOU 2 to 4 need is for Ellie to have an ever increasing amount of hallucinations as the Shroom Within grows.
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May 1, 2020 03:26
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rereading the post in andrew dice "the diceman" clays voice in my head and hooting like a wolf
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May 1, 2020 03:31
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Cuntellectual posted:Just something above the soy face tier.  way to show your whole rear end, friend also i do love the school of thought of more words = better point, just fabulous all around 
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May 1, 2020 03:39
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i missed tyhat hahahahaha
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May 1, 2020 03:40
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Dewgy posted:
I specifically said you don't need to write very much! I was just pointing out that nobody can ever talk about what makes TLoU without using broad, weak points like "good storytelling" without elaborating on what makes it actually good compared to literally anything else. The entire thing about people being mad over the leaks confuses me because the first game was not very well written or subtle or anything. This isn't a new direction. The main thing people seem to be getting mad about that isn't a logical continuation of The Last of Us part 1 is that there's a trans character or something, and it feels dumb for people to make such a big deal about that. e: If you can give a concise explanation for The Last of Us being worth spending time on, I'd love to hear it. With how it's so overwhelmingly perfect to the point you get viscerally angry over someone critiquing it, surely that's not a big ask. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 03:53 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 03:47
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There isn’t a trans character. e: Also maybe, you know, you should be the one to set the goalposts for what “good” is. You don’t seem to have a problem with describing it as “bad” without elaborating, why is that more valid? Dewgy fucked around with this message at 03:52 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 03:48
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Cuntellectual posted:what makes it actually good compared to literally anything else do you mean literally anything else, or do you mean compared to things that are specifically better than it
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May 1, 2020 03:51
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he’s right
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May 1, 2020 03:54
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Cuntellectual posted:It's great how literally every defence of TLoU is "You're wrong and stupid" because no valid defences can be made for it on it's own merits due to how quickly they crumble when compared to things that are actually any good. I dunno as someone who played the first 8 or so hours of TLoU last month and finally just fell off of it because the main character handles like an old tractor with a rifle taped to the nose, "the gameplay is not very good" is a pretty valid criticism.
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May 1, 2020 03:55
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no one should write multiple paragraphs about a video game, unless I agree with them
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May 1, 2020 03:59
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saying any game plays better than spec ops is a very good joke and i like spec ops a lot
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May 1, 2020 04:05
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Cuntellectual posted:e: If you can give a concise explanation for The Last of Us being worth spending time on, I'd love to hear it. With how it's so overwhelmingly perfect to the point you get viscerally angry over someone critiquing it, surely that's not a big ask. If you’re mistaking casual vulgarity for visceral anger I think you may need to work on your reading comprehension.  TLOU, the first one, is a rare experience that is both fitting right into an existing genre and at the same time kind of turning it on its head. In an era with tons of high caliber full auto insanity, Joel starts off not being able to shoot for poo poo and he has around 3 bullets at any given time. Your character is fragile, resources are scarce, and it takes the usual third person shooter mechanics and makes it a really tense experience. Storywise, it essentially takes its apocalypse to tell a series of pretty well fleshed out character stories, it tries to keep the scale of the journey and time taken as grounded and realistic as it can manage, up to treating winter as the actual dangerous thing it is for someone underprepared. It’s an action game that isn’t afraid to dip into being dour and ugly and it makes fighting people an extremely tense experience even without them being heavily armed, mainly because the entire world sets up the idea that if you get hurt you are hosed. The writing isn’t exactly Shakespeare but it’s a decent script, doesn’t try to make its characters perfect, and the performances are fantastic across the board. I’m not saying it’s the most perfect game ever made, I get it if it didn’t click with you, but to call it outright objectively bad is just baffling unless your whole point is just to say “I don’t like popular thing”. How? What exactly is it that makes this story and game poorly made or executed?
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May 1, 2020 04:06
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Cuntellectual posted:The gameplay is functional at best, repetitive and poorly executed at worst. It's just a series of AAA gameplay features like stupid instant crafting, garbage stealth where your AI partners could be sucking the enemies off and they wouldn't notice, and loving quick time events. people always complain about this but it would be a million loving times worse if the enemies could actually detect your AI partners and gently caress up your stealth
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May 1, 2020 04:13
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Dewgy posted:There isn’t a trans character. Sure. There's no way to classify something as objectively good or bad, but I think I have a definition similar to most people. Good gameplay: Intuitive and responsive controls (The buttons in tlou are mapped weirdly, and the character handles like a brick.) Intelligent AI (Doesn't use much in the way of tactics beyond taking cover and sliding up and down like targets in a shooting gallery. For the friendly side, Ellie doesn't even try to take cover during stealth.) Challenge that ramps up appropriately with game progress/difficulty selection (Human enemies never get harder. Lategame ones aren't smarter, have no new abilities, the enviroments you fight them in aren't significantly more challenging than early ones, they just tend to have more enemies with somewhat better guns) Minimal filler mechanics or game features (Crafting is basically pointless, the puzzles are just filler, sneaking around zombies is usually filler) Integrating gameplay elements with the story being told, if story is important (As mentioned, Ellie's AI and the way enemies are fought in hordes completely fails to work with that. IIRC Ellie also functions identically to joel during the short part you play her. Joel's aim is also way unsteady for someone who's been doing this for what, 20 years?) I also generally appreciate some variety or trying new things to make the formula more interesting, but of course not every game can revolutionize their genre. Good writing: Characters having some kind of depth (Joel is like every other angry hairy dad in video games. I just find him boring. Every antagonist except the fireflies are also comically evil.) Showing over telling (I'll admit I don't remember this super well but I'm pretty sure Joel and Ellie just kind of start being friendly at some point after Joel basically considering her kind of annoying/just a job the entire time prior. Just spending time with someone isn't enough to make them like each other. Joel's transformation from 'nice young dad' to 'hardened criminal' also conveniently happens off screen with no need to show it.) Having some actual reasons to care about the characters (Joel, and to a lesser degree Ellie, is an awful person. Bad people can be good protagonists, but I already don't find Joel compelling and I just can't bring myself to care about this one random dirty post apocalyptic jerk over any other one. This is why the antagonists more or less HAVE to be so two dimensional. He lost his family 20 years ago, so loving what. So did everyone else. He can be mad and sad about it, but there's no reason to care about him more than anyone else.) Not directly writing, but music and environment design can contribute immensely. Not everything needs music (like The Wire has pretty minimal music and that show is excellent), but using it sparingly should be considered very carefully. I could go on but from what you've said you hate reading too much. CharlestonJew posted:people always complain about this but it would be a million loving times worse if the enemies could actually detect your AI partners and gently caress up your stealth Don't get me wrong, that would be worse. I just wish Ellie would try to hide, or stay offscreen or something. Dewgy posted:If you’re mistaking casual vulgarity for visceral anger I think you may need to work on your reading comprehension. My mistake, where I'm from people usually don't immediately start lead with "You're a big dummy!" when they're not angry. I think Resident Evil 4 did a much better job of having a fragile character with scarce resources due to also controlling much better. I think Spec Ops does a better job of being 'dour and ugly', with how the protagonist literally becomes dirtier and more scarred from the chiseled handsome action hero he starts the game as. It also has a good script and some of the most phenomenal vocal work have heard in a game, thanks in part to the voice actors being stuck inside a recording booth for hours together so their growing fatigue and frustration was legitimate. I might have misspoken at some point but I don't think I ever said TLoU is objectively bad. I said I ultimately find it very average and that the reason I have such a distaste for it is because of how aggressively it's held up as being a shining example of everything gaming can be (generally with fanboys getting angry and throwing tantrums when people disagree). Do any of those games I mentioned being good make TLoU bad? Of course not. However, the fact TLoU fails to live up to actual examples of these things being done so well makes it what I said. Very average. It pisses me off that games that come closer to achieving all these things that TLoU supposedly does get ignored (well, not RE4) or sell badly or whatever while people tongue bathe TLoU. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 04:28 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 04:16
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its again the very strange thing people do where concessions to entertainment in a piece of media are somehow an objective flaw. this happens in film a lot but its cranked up in games because games generally have to concede more due to the audience actually controlling what is happening.
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May 1, 2020 04:17
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Cuntellectual posted:Sure. lord give me this level of confidence and lack of self awareness
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May 1, 2020 04:18
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Cuntellectual posted:Don't get me wrong, that would be worse. I just wish Ellie would try to hide, or stay offscreen or something. they definitely could have done that but it's pretty clear that they wanted Ellie to participate in the battles and help the player occasionally, so having her be invisible until you get detected was the best compromise they could come up with without spending 100 years perfecting the pathfinding AI edit: also I don't agree with all of cuntellectual's points but you're looking like a giant prick right now Stux
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May 1, 2020 04:19
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CharlestonJew posted:they definitely could have done that but it's pretty clear that they wanted Ellie to participate in the battles and help the player occasionally, so having her be invisible until you get detected was the best compromise they could come up with without spending 100 years perfecting the pathfinding AI I get that, but I think that they needed to kill that particular baby and either make Ellie a factor in battle or have her not participate at all.
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May 1, 2020 04:26
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CharlestonJew posted:they definitely could have done that but it's pretty clear that they wanted Ellie to participate in the battles and help the player occasionally, so having her be invisible until you get detected was the best compromise they could come up with without spending 100 years perfecting the pathfinding AI hm but consider this Cuntellectual posted:Showing over telling (I'll admit I don't remember this super well but I'm pretty sure Joel and Ellie just kind of start being friendly at some point after Joel basically considering her kind of annoying/just a job the entire time prior. Just spending time with someone isn't enough to make them like each other. Joel's transformation from 'nice young dad' to 'hardened criminal' also conveniently happens off screen with no need to show it.)
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May 1, 2020 04:30
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Cuntellectual posted:I get that, but I think that they needed to kill that particular baby and either make Ellie a factor in battle or have her not participate at all. This was absolutely a decision informed by years of other developers trying to do it in other ways. Having the NPC followers be invisible is one of the best possible ways to handle an uncontrollable AI partner, and if there’s one thing the decade before TLOU taught us it’s that escort missions completely suck. e: Re: Show don’t tell, isn’t a big part of the intro of the game about showing how Joel already shot his neighbor, was implied to kill someone else as well, and abandon an entire family to die? Like, they make it clear right away that Joel is looking out for number one (and number one’s family) above all else and at any cost. Dewgy fucked around with this message at 04:33 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 04:31
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its already showing and not telling theyve just misunderstood the term because of two different contexts for the word "show" because "show dont tell" comes from writing and doesnt mean literally showing visually. a 20 year time skip through a hard cut where it goes from him emotional and devastated to current day joel where we get scant information on what hes done and have to infer what has been going on for his character change is explicitly showing and not telling, its a pretty big example of it. whether its effective or not is a different thing, but its literally what they are doing. actually showing the things he had done for the last 20 years would be telling.
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May 1, 2020 04:53
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I guess that's part of it then, they show us a panicked idiot rear end in a top hat angerdad and then a twenty years older rear end in a top hat angerdad. Not exactly compelling.
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May 1, 2020 04:59
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SIGSEGV posted:I guess that's part of it then, they show us a panicked idiot rear end in a top hat angerdad and then a twenty years older rear end in a top hat angerdad. much like your posting!!!
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May 1, 2020 05:01
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the game isnt subtle, picking up on how joel has changed and getting a picture in your head of the last 20 years isnt some mental challenge, its extremely obvious and easy. asking for the game to literally lay out exactly what has happened and then say the writing is bad because they didnt is a galaxy brain analysis.
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May 1, 2020 05:04
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Stux posted:the game isnt subtle, picking up on how joel has changed and getting a picture in your head of the last 20 years isnt some mental challenge, its extremely obvious and easy. asking for the game to literally lay out exactly what has happened and then say the writing is bad because they didnt is a galaxy brain analysis. reminds me of the one guy who posted 30k words of pseudointellectual vitriol about spec ops (no, not this guy, another guy) to disguise the fact that his mission statement was basically "the ending gave me bad tummyfeels"
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May 1, 2020 05:06
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also, i like this thread! i'm excited to be a part of it!
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May 1, 2020 05:06
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Show, don’t tell: like when Joel tells Ellie “hark! thou hast heard tell of the Crimson Bud, that notorious thief? Aye, ‘twas I! Full wroth with the rage of Hell who did descend upon the lords and ladies which every way did wend up and down the country and so in their fond hearts said: ‘Surely I am safe from mischief.’ Not so; and when they saw my brand they quaked rightly for my contentment could not be denied, nay. And not a purse did scape my glance unburdened nor a comelie waif unbedded. Thus I dwelt among the charnel graves by the highway-side and toasted the good masters for their generosity from sculls digged up from th’environs, and the sweet wine flowed o’er my lips as might drown an Atilla.”
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May 1, 2020 05:06
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May 1, 2020 05:08
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Bonaventure posted:Show, don’t tell: like when Joel tells Ellie “hark! thou hast heard tell of the Crimson Bud, that notorious thief? Aye, ‘twas I! Full wroth with the rage of Hell who did descend upon the lords and ladies which every way did wend up and down the country and so in their fond hearts said: ‘Surely I am safe from mischief.’ Not so; and when they saw my brand they quaked rightly for my contentment could not be denied, nay. And not a purse did scape my glance unburdened nor a comelie waif unbedded. Thus I dwelt among the charnel graves by the highway-side and toasted the good masters for their generosity from sculls digged up from th’environs, and the sweet wine flowed o’er my lips as might drown an Atilla.” he conveniently leaves out the time he got swindled out of his clothes and weapons out of embarassment
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May 1, 2020 05:08
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