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You, a person who still can't get insurance: "The ACA didn't help me. Why should I continue to support either party?" Me, a smart person: "look at this chart"
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May 1, 2020 23:18
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Gumball Gumption posted:What do you want from people? I want us to move left, not a freaking mile backwards. I'll settle for staying in place for now and the fight the good fight through state and local elections.
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May 1, 2020 23:21
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Marxalot posted:But forcing people to tithe several hundred dollars a month to cigna lest they get destroyed by taxes got the insured rate up! So that's a victory! Annual premiums were much higher than the penalty for the vast, vast majority of people my dude
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May 1, 2020 23:21
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Gumball Gumption posted:You, a person who still can't get insurance: "The ACA didn't help me. Why should I continue to support either party?" Trump and the GOP nearly got rid of the ACA a few years ago.
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May 1, 2020 23:21
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Scientist Al Gore posted:Political Parties aren't monolithic static entities that don't change. Didn't Obama brag about massively expanding fracking
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May 1, 2020 23:22
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Scientist Al Gore posted:Political Parties aren't monolithic static entities that don't change. a reasonable person would reach the conclusion that a joe biden presidency isn't just a joe biden presidency just like the obama presidency wasn't just the obama presidency but the obama->trump presidency
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May 1, 2020 23:22
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So, it seems like the most vocal opinions in this thread are one of two different varieties: First that being it's worthwhile sucking it up and voting for Biden, because he’s not as bad as Trump, and the second being that they can’t in good conscience vote for Biden, because not being as bad as Trump isn’t a good enough reason to vote for him. There may be a small segment that believes Biden will actively be worse than Trump, but I can’t see myself agreeing with that. The other two? Absolutely, I can see how folks would come to either of those conclusions. I think how vocal those opinions are, and how passionate the arguments have been, speaks a lot to how this whole thing just completely sucks rear end. I can’t help but  at the situation we’re in some days. It’s awful. It’s a tragedy. And, no matter which opinion-bucket you fall in, I think the vast majority can agree on that and take some consolation.I’m in WA, and since it’s extremely unlikely the state will go red in November, I’m gonna be leaving the vote for president blank. I’m not gonna write in Bernie, because there’s plenty of issues that can go wrong with write-in votes, and I want my down-ballot votes to get counted as quickly as possible. I’m not voting third party, because there aren’t any candidates that’ll be on the ballot who I believe would be a beneficial protest vote. All that said, if I were in a swing vote state, I would have a much bigger struggle with not checking the box for Biden. As crappy as he is, I really want the Orange Man to go away. I don’t think there’s any way to say letting Trump win would accelerate progressive candidates. There’s no apt historical comparison that I can think of, but y’all are smart folks, so if you can think of one, I’d love to see it. At the same time, without someone who’s going all out on climate change action, less-bad than Trump is preferable. Honestly, I don’t even think Bernie winning would mean we could meet the deliverables to put us on a path to stop that from happening. If the US does better in that regard, Brazil’s still gonna let their forests burn, the coral reefs are gonna reach 100% acid washed jeans bleaching extinction, and OPEC is still gonna continue barfing out oil at negative twenty dollars a gallon (if it comes to that). Damage reduction is all we have, that’s the reality of it. I know this is as “nothing matters” as one can get, but that’s just how I feel at that point. I honestly don’t see how we can change our course, other than pure unadulterated optimism or desperation. And, you know, I spoke about the climate crisis in that above example, but I think the same case could be made for a lot of other issues. Income inequality, social justice, racial discrimination, all the reasons I caucused for Bernie in 2016 and voted for him in the 2020 primary. At this point, I’ve decided that drastically changing things for the better is gonna have to be done from the ground up through state and local level elections, instead of relying on the POTUS. Since that’s the completely uneducated conclusion I’ve reached, and to close the loop, I’m in WA state, so therefore will not vote for anyone on the presidential ticket, but if I was in a swing state, I’d probably consider voting for the candidate with the most chance to beat Trump, because damage reduction, and also… I really, really want to see the Orange Man melt down if he loses. It would be epic, if it happens. I would laugh for days.
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May 1, 2020 23:23
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Scientist Al Gore posted:Political Parties aren't monolithic static entities that don't change. you can't get me to agree that it's a tangible and meaningful difference between a guy throwing gas on a fire and a guy just watching it burn.
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May 1, 2020 23:23
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Scientist Al Gore posted:Trump and the GOP nearly got rid of the ACA a few years ago. The Democratic party can not fail, it can only be failed.
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May 1, 2020 23:23
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nivdes posted:Annual premiums were much higher than the penalty for the vast, vast majority of people my dude Why are those least able to afford insurance being penalized at all
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May 1, 2020 23:24
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VitalSigns posted:Didn't Obama brag about massively expanding fracking https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1067746578226704384?s=20 To me, that's climate denialism to brag about in loving 2018. quote:President Barack Obama took credit once again Tuesday for the U.S. oil-and-gas boom, even though critics have argued that the upswing in oil and natural gas production occurred in spite of his policies.
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May 1, 2020 23:25
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VitalSigns posted:Didn't Obama brag about massively expanding fracking I don't know and not sure how that's relevant unless he's running again. sexpig by night posted:you can't get me to agree that it's a tangible and meaningful difference between a guy throwing gas on a fire and a guy just watching it burn. I wouldn't agree with that either but the overwhelming majority climate scientists don't view a Biden presidency as such.
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May 1, 2020 23:26
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Trabisnikof posted:https://twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1067746578226704384?s=20 A reasonable person would vote for Biden over Trump on Climate Change. Is the planet not important to you?
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May 1, 2020 23:27
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That video is all you need right there. The most left leaning Democrat we've been allowed to vote for for 50 years bragged about sentencing billions of people to death in climate apocalypse so his friends at Exxon could make a little more money this year, and this guy is even more right wing than that
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May 1, 2020 23:28
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Remember, Biden's climate plan is written by a fossil fuel executive that's on the record as opposing the Green New Deal. But sure, he's really going to do something about climate, he promises!
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May 1, 2020 23:28
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FallenGod posted:Why are those least able to afford insurance being penalized at all Nobody's being penalized now since the individual mandate is functionally dead, and for the most part, people who couldn't afford insurance weren't penalized; i.e. if they didn't qualify for Medicaid in a state that didn't expand it or if there was no available coverage that was considered affordable in their marketplace.
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May 1, 2020 23:28
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Scientist Al Gore posted:I don't know and not sure how that's relevant unless he's running again. the overwhelming majority of climate scientists understand funding matters and know biden is a better shot than trump, I don't actually care who they endorse politically, all the actionable items the ones that matter have are opposed to biden's agenda.
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May 1, 2020 23:28
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Scientist Al Gore posted:A reasonable person would vote for Biden over Trump on Climate Change. Is the planet not important to you? I have yet to see a reasonable person say this, can you cite your source?
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May 1, 2020 23:29
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e: added the quote so it doesn't look like this came from nowhere: I think people misunderstand what accelerationists believe. They don't think that a prolonged trump presidency will lead to a wounded democratic party limping leftward with a strong progressive candidate; they think that prolonged GOP rule will end the country. The accelerationist model is the French Revolution. There's no appetite for trying to fix the fundamentally broken system, which they believe is unsalvagable, and so they push for decisions that will hasten the fall of the system that can't stand on its own. We don't have many accelerationists here, I don't think. What we have are people who want to fix american democracy in various different ways who disagree on whether or not the choice of bad president matters at this junction. Usually this revolves around how they think about the systemic obstacles like the supreme court or the efficacy of local politics vs. the fact that many people will continue to die in unconscionable numbers either way.
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May 1, 2020 23:30
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sexpig by night posted:the overwhelming majority of climate scientists understand funding matters and know biden is a better shot than trump, Thank you. 
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May 1, 2020 23:30
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Scientist Al Gore posted:I don't know and not sure how that's relevant unless he's running again. "Yesterday was a totally different day Charlie Brown, you can't prove I won't pull the football away today!"
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May 1, 2020 23:31
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Scientist Al Gore posted:A reasonable person would vote for Biden over Trump on Climate Change. Is the planet not important to you? Weirdest thing, I heard a reasonable person wouldn't vote for a rapist. Though I've also heard a reasonable person wouldn't vote for Trump. Or maybe for Hilary. It's almost like I can just say "A reasonable person would do X" and make it sound like I speak from a position of authority and shame others.
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May 1, 2020 23:31
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Trabisnikof posted:Remember, Biden's climate plan is written by a fossil fuel executive that's on the record as opposing the Green New Deal. The best defense is a good offense. Kill the climate before it kills you! nivdes posted:Nobody's being penalized now since the individual mandate is functionally dead, and for the most part, people who couldn't afford insurance weren't penalized; i.e. if they didn't qualify for Medicaid in a state that didn't expand it or if there was no available coverage that was considered affordable in their marketplace. Except for the penalty of not having health coverage.
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May 1, 2020 23:31
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Scientist Al Gore posted:A reasonable person would vote for Biden over Trump on Climate Change. Is the planet not important to you? The planet is important to me. Please provide some sort of support for the first part of this. Were Clinton or Obama better for the planet then either of the Bushes were? In any sort of fundamental way?
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May 1, 2020 23:33
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Brownhat posted:Except for the penalty of not having health coverage. The Medicaid coverage gap wasn't a feature of the ACA at the start, it was caused by the Supreme Court deciding to make the Medicaid expansion optional for the states.
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May 1, 2020 23:34
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Gumball Gumption posted:Weirdest thing, I heard a reasonable person wouldn't vote for a rapist. Though I've also heard a reasonable person wouldn't vote for Trump. Or maybe for Hilary. It's almost like I can just say "A reasonable person would do X" and make it sound like I speak from a position of authority and shame others. That's true but it is also true a reasonable person would vote for Biden over Trump on climate change. The two are not the same.
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May 1, 2020 23:34
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nivdes posted:Nobody's being penalized now since the individual mandate is functionally dead, and for the most part, people who couldn't afford insurance weren't penalized; i.e. if they didn't qualify for Medicaid in a state that didn't expand it or if there was no available coverage that was considered affordable in their marketplace. I'll make sure to tell the government that I don't have to pay the penalty if I lose my job and can't afford my insurance.
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May 1, 2020 23:35
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Hellblazer187 posted:The planet is important to me. Please provide some sort of support for the first part of this. Were Clinton or Obama better for the planet then either of the Bushes were? In any sort of fundamental way? I already have, you free quote my previous post where I cited scientists, groups and activists. And Bush was deeply embedded with the Oil and Gas lobby - he's the one that made the whole industry immune from the Clean Water Act.
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May 1, 2020 23:36
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Scientist Al Gore posted:Thank you. funding doesn't mean poo poo when the admin still lacks the willingness to implement what they find, the only difference is biden at least makes a token gesture
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May 1, 2020 23:36
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Scientist Al Gore posted:That's true but it is also true a reasonable person would vote for Biden over Trump on climate change. The two are not the same. Could you please define and explain what a reasonable person is? You shouldn't make claims without evidence.
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May 1, 2020 23:36
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Gumball Gumption posted:Could you please define and explain what a reasonable person is? You shouldn't make claims without evidence. A person who listens to the scientists or experts.
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May 1, 2020 23:38
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FallenGod posted:I'll make sure to tell the government that I don't have to pay the penalty if I lose my job and can't afford my insurance. The penalty was eliminated starting with the 2019 tax year and the absence of the penalty is at the crux of the current effort to get the judiciary to accomplish what Congress couldn't and strike down the ACA.
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May 1, 2020 23:38
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generic one posted:There may be a small segment that believes Biden will actively be worse than Trump, but I can’t see myself agreeing with that. So, I'm not saying I'm there yet, but this is the line of inquiry I'm bringing up. Clinton signed welfare reform when Reagan and Bush couldn't get it done. Buy in from the democratic president made it a possibility. Republicans unilaterally doing it was not tenable. My fear with a Biden administration is that the same thing will happen with Social Security and/or Medicare. I'm not saying "this is what will happen" if Biden is President. But, given the history with Clinton gutting welfare, and Biden's comments on Social Security and or Medicare over the course of his career, it seems more likely we get a "bipartisan" Social Security cut under a Biden presidency than under a Trump presidency. Trump with a Democratic house is in some respects more dangerous than Biden with a GOP house, but in some respects less dangerous as well.
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May 1, 2020 23:39
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VitalSigns posted:"Yesterday was a totally different day Charlie Brown, you can't prove I won't pull the football away today!" I've seen this argument deployed for Biden a fair bit, suggesting that anything a politician previously did, no matter how bad, is in the past and therefore inconsequential, and you need to look at what they'll do going forward (using prior behavior to judge if they're simply lying to you is of course also not kosher) ultimately it seems a great argument for voting for Donald Trump, since we cannot say he's ever done anything of consequence wrong, often says he'll do good future things in non-specific terms, and might well decide he's utopian socialist tomorrow e: Hellblazer187 posted:So, I'm not saying I'm there yet, but this is the line of inquiry I'm bringing up. Clinton signed welfare reform when Reagan and Bush couldn't get it done. Buy in from the democratic president made it a possibility. Republicans unilaterally doing it was not tenable. My fear with a Biden administration is that the same thing will happen with Social Security and/or Medicare. I'm not saying "this is what will happen" if Biden is President. But, given the history with Clinton gutting welfare, and Biden's comments on Social Security and or Medicare over the course of his career, it seems more likely we get a "bipartisan" Social Security cut under a Biden presidency than under a Trump presidency. Trump with a Democratic house is in some respects more dangerous than Biden with a GOP house, but in some respects less dangerous as well. its quite likely he led the Obama administration's efforts to just that via the proposed bipartisan Grand Bargain, and would have succeeded if the effort hadn't be derailed by the loving Tea Party tbh I think the most likely reason he wouldn't end up pursuing exactly such a course of action is that might be too debilitated by his declining faculties to effectively push such an agenda LGD fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:39
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Scientist Al Gore posted:A person who listens to the scientists or experts. Unless they disagree with you, because I can find you scientists who would tell me to vote Trump. Again, you're just making dumb rhetorical arguments to shame people for disagreeing with you.
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May 1, 2020 23:40
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I still haven't heard a good argument for why Biden shouldn't be forced to drop out at this point. He now has committed more sexual harassment than it usually takes to get forced out of government, without even taking the allegation of sexual assault into consideration.
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May 1, 2020 23:43
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nivdes posted:The penalty was eliminated starting with the 2019 tax year and the absence of the penalty is at the crux of the current effort to get the judiciary to accomplish what Congress couldn't and strike down the ACA. Yeah, the federal one was struck down and I didn't notice because both my previous state of residence immediately reenacted it.
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May 1, 2020 23:45
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Scientist Al Gore posted:I don't know and not sure how that's relevant unless he's running again. Biden is running on Obama's record. If he wants to take credit for the victories then he is fair game to be criticized for the failures too.
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May 1, 2020 23:46
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Gumball Gumption posted:Unless they disagree with you, because I can find you scientists who would tell me to vote Trump. Again, you're just making dumb rhetorical arguments to shame people for disagreeing with you. That's true! That's why I cited multiple scientists, activists and organizations who if you read the letter have credentials that show they've probably got an expert understanding on the topic. Gumball Gumption posted:Again, you're just making dumb rhetorical arguments to shame people for disagreeing with you. My intent here is not to shame. At all. Just don't tell tell me Trump and Biden are the same on climate. That is not true in the slightest.
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May 1, 2020 23:47
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Eminai posted:I have yet to see a reasonable person say this, can you cite your source? There are no climate scientists who believe in accelerationism or think that Trump would be better for the environment than Biden.
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May 1, 2020 23:48
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