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I dunno, I feel like I'm the total opposite of literally everyone and dislike Zoss here. Like he's the fuckup of the universe, totally screwed up Throne and all the worlds. So maybe he should know that violence doesn't lead anywhere, but him being smug is gross.
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May 2, 2020 16:01
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Brain Candy posted:I dunno, I feel like I'm the total opposite of literally everyone and dislike Zoss here. He conquered, slayed, and tempered all reality into a Kingdom. His Kingdom. He doesn't need to be smug, he has the knowledge and wisdom of centuries of experience attained on the path to Royalty and Kinghood.
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May 2, 2020 16:27
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Brain Candy posted:I dunno, I feel like I'm the total opposite of literally everyone and dislike Zoss here. 
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May 2, 2020 16:30
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Brain Candy posted:I dunno, I feel like I'm the total opposite of literally everyone and dislike Zoss here. My understanding is that Throne was already dead and empty when he got there (except for the angels) (who he murdered into submission), and when others came later he organized them into creating a highly advanced and artistic society of highly ambitious scholars and warrior kings... who then started wondering why they weren't in charge, leading directly to the Universal War. So while his actions lead to Throne getting hosed up, there wouldn't really have been anything to gently caress up had he not been the first and greatest of the demiurges.
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May 2, 2020 17:02
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Neddy Seagoon posted:He conquered, slayed, and tempered all reality into a Kingdom. His Kingdom. He doesn't need to be smug, he has the knowledge and wisdom of centuries of experience attained on the path to Royalty and Kinghood. I remember breaking a sword over Vivec's head. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.
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May 2, 2020 17:03
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NecroMonster posted:lmao, zoss had a prosthetic arm ages and ages go, so when he got his head cut off, he upgraded to a prosthetic body He actually got his body cut off if you think about it
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May 2, 2020 17:08
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May 2, 2020 17:46
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Zoss is a failure, but I think he is not the first or last failure to create something. I think he wants Alison to be better than him, and to not attain Royalty through cutting. He wants her to obtain Royalty not through power or strength alone, but in part through weakness.
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May 2, 2020 18:03
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Josef bugman posted:Zoss is a failure, but I think he is not the first or last failure to create something. that would explain why he chose someone from a stable and comfortable life with no reason to engage in serious martial training
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May 2, 2020 18:11
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Allison will attain Royalty with her barista skills.
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May 2, 2020 18:13
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She's going to put a fire in White Chain's soul with a literally divine mug of coffee.
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May 2, 2020 18:15
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reach heaven through latte art
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May 2, 2020 18:15
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If you should meet God on the road, serve Him coffee.
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May 2, 2020 18:18
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Renaissance Robot posted:Oh yeah, in a world known to have kung fu techniques that make your head (and only your head) indestructible that's probably totally a thing huh The conquering king doesn't need to know head of john to have the abilities that head of john provides, and as soon as we learned about head of john via the comment we should have known then (This week's Ryo-ten-Ryam comment is excellent) Brain Candy posted:I dunno, I feel like I'm the total opposite of literally everyone and dislike Zoss here. If I may dril six billion demons you - 
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May 2, 2020 18:18
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I'm betting it's going to be about empowering White Chain to solve her own problems with a snazzy reforged body. If anyone would know how to forge an Angel body, it's Zoss.Mr. Lobe posted:that would explain why he chose someone from a stable and comfortable life with no reason to engage in serious martial training They bring up Zoss turning from the Conquering King to the Ruling King... but I think the problem is he never made that transition. He just ran out of things to conquer and tried turning his energies into conquering things like barbarism and technology. When it was done, he simply stagnated as there were no more things to Conquer. Ruling is the real trick, and someone who's not out to poo poo on everyone's day with their own desires and just wants to get through each day with everyone doing okay is an ideal candidate. Solomon David comes close, but he's lost sight of Royalty by chasing Zoss instead of finding his own way and his empire is just a cage instead of a true Kingdom.
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May 2, 2020 18:24
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I brought up Vivec because he's the Vivec of the story; attained his power through violence, then tried for enlightenment afterwards only to struggle against consequences of the original violence. Like okay, cool, you get non-violence now. You caused Salami Dave's daughters to die. You got Incubus trained as a murder-beast. Gog wouldn't be billions strong without all those worlds to devour. Motton wouldn't have been grabbing people as tribute. Metatron wouldn't have made the thorns. I guess I find 6(7?)-jugs arguments that he's a hateful poo poo p. compelling. Especially if he is trying to weasel out of the consequences by 'getting it right' by resetting time.
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May 2, 2020 18:38
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He's not trying to "reset" anything. He is trying to do the far more difficult thing of encouraging growth through it. He know's he failed, and so knows that strength alone will not make him victorious. 6/7 Juggs is right, but in a very important way they are also completely wrong. Because they view all of reality as a constant struggle and hate everything about it, they are the ones who want a reset. They wish the universe to be "clean" to be "purified" but such a thing is impossible, instead Zoss represents a way to learn from failure, not to salt the earth and learn nothing from it.
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May 2, 2020 18:58
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I don't think you can lay that much responsibilty for the horrors of the second conquest at Zoss's feet; wasn't he off following the path of Royalty at that point? And even if he hadn't been... well, he's not entirely blameless, but he wasn't like holding a gun to the heads of all the other demiurges and forcing them to ignite a universal war to satisfy their hunger to dominate and rule. They were collectively the most powerful people in creation; they can bear responsibility for their own choices.
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May 2, 2020 18:58
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I dunno how yall can be against my man Zoss and still be cool with swordlady who killed hella fools before figuring out that swords suck rear end.
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May 2, 2020 19:02
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Brain Candy posted:I brought up Vivec because he's the Vivec of the story; attained his power through violence, then tried for enlightenment afterwards only to struggle against consequences of the original violence. Yup. All those failures already happened though. What now? The answer is, try to foster someone to be better than you. The fact that Zoss grasps that that better means not like him is where he differs from Incubus and the rest of the Demiurges.
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May 2, 2020 19:20
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Is it time for Glorantha chat again? Because admitting you hosed up and trying to improve things is a good chunk of Orlanth.
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May 2, 2020 19:25
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Like seriously look at how all the other Demiurges have tried to mold Allison or the Heir. Solomon David, Mottom, Incubus. They all know they’re stuck in a rut but the only way they can conceive of the true king is “like me but even moreso so that they somehow don’t get stuck in my rut” Zoss is the only one to say “stop doing the poo poo we did”
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May 2, 2020 19:27
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Captain Oblivious posted:They all know they’re stuck in a rut but the only way they can conceive of the true king is “like me but even moreso so that they somehow don’t get stuck in my rut” This is also Zoss right now with non-intervention. Maybe the secret of kings is that the world doesn't need any kings. 
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May 2, 2020 19:40
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ChaseSP posted:Is it time for Glorantha chat again? Because admitting you hosed up and trying to improve things is a good chunk of Orlanth. I like this parallel Probably the most famous myth to Gloranthans is the Lightbringers Quest. Orlanth, the King of Storms, had beef with Yelm, The Bright Emperor, and slew Yelm. Yelm is the actual loving sun, and so the Sun going into the underworld is Very Bad. While at first this was good for Orlanth - being the King of Storms during "The Storm Age" kind of rules, when you start seeing phrases like "The Gods' Last Stand" and "The Age of Terror," things have gotten a little out of hand. Orlanth swallowed his pride and assembled a team to pull the greatest heist of them all: sneak into the underworld, apologize to the person he killed, and invent time. Zoss, like Orlanth, built a mighty empire after a long, stagnant 'perfection.' Zoss, like Orlanth, saw his empire have massive, devastating, unintended consequences. Zoss, like Orlanth, decided it was more important to fix this than to live.
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May 2, 2020 19:49
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Brain Candy posted:This is also Zoss right now with non-intervention. Maybe the secret of kings is that the world doesn't need any kings. Non intervention but moreso sounds like an oxymoron so I'm not really sure where you're going with that. He's not advocating non-intervention. He wants her to be an agent of change, just not conqueror.
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May 2, 2020 20:00
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Also, me going Zoss shouldn't be smug and you going 'but he's better than the other broken monsters' is not exactly super convincing.
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May 2, 2020 20:01
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I don’t think ‘smug’ is how I would read most of his appearances. Intense, bitter, knowledgeable, sure. But he’s like Obi Wan Kenobi in A New Hope, or Yoda in Empire: someone who knows more than the protagonist and the villain, but is personally wracked with his own mistakes. He’s dismissive of Incubus because literally everyone is dismissive of Incubus because that’s Incubus’ personal hell, but his advice for Allison isn’t bad and he gave up cosmic power to Allison in an attempt to make the world better.
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May 2, 2020 20:04
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me: dang, this dude should be ashamed of all the poo poo he caused you: hey at least he gave up unfathomable cosmic power to a barissta
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May 2, 2020 20:11
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Brain Candy posted:Also, me going Zoss shouldn't be smug and you going 'but he's better than the other broken monsters' is not exactly super convincing. I don't think he is smug? He clearly knows a fair bit, but he never comes across as cruel or self serving enough to be smug. He just doesn't like any of the demiurges because, as we have been shown over and over, they are bad folks. If anything they are worse than him even though he laid the ground work, because they did not follow in his footsteps. He took what he could by power and then they followed the shape of what he did without questioning why he did it. He has a load of self belief, and a lot of power, but I think he's reached the end of what he is capable of. He hates the demiurges because they remind him of the worst aspects of "ruling". I think he even dislikes himself a bit.
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May 2, 2020 20:13
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Josef bugman posted:I don't think he is smug? He clearly knows a fair bit, but he never comes across as cruel or self serving enough to be smug. He just doesn't like any of the demiurges because, as we have been shown over and over, they are bad folks. If anything they are worse than him even though he laid the ground work, because they did not follow in his footsteps. He took what he could by power and then they followed the shape of what he did without questioning why he did it. Except that's not true for Maya or Emperor Beardo? They didn't seek out violence, they had it thrust on them, just like everyone else who sees a gate that pours out soldiers.
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May 2, 2020 20:18
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zoss is my favorite
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May 2, 2020 20:19
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Cowcaster posted:zoss is my favorite I knew it 
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May 2, 2020 20:22
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Brain Candy posted:me: dang, this dude should be ashamed of all the poo poo he caused The lowliest of all the crawling, wriggling creatures.
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May 2, 2020 20:22
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I don't think we have any reason to believe Zoss is proud of anything he has accomplished. but he also appears to believe, and rightly so, that the problems he created aren't ones he can directly fix. giving the power to some unambitious nobody and coaching her to be self-reliant is probably about as good of a move as any he could make, under the circumstances.
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May 2, 2020 20:25
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Brain Candy posted:Except that's not true for Maya or Emperor Beardo? They didn't seek out violence, they had it thrust on them, just like everyone else who sees a gate that pours out soldiers. They didn't start the fire, but they've torched their share of worlds. The demiurges - not just the seven we know, but all of them in the history - have had shared a philosophy that the only route to their ideal world is being the best at violence, so no one can break what they have by being violent. And this has not worked out well for the Wheel. Given earlier talk of iterations and cycles, I wouldn't be surprised if this concordance of the seven was the product of a previous attempt by Zoss to escape the cycle of violence - this world is ruled through a non-aggression pact. But it is a pact backed by violence, and all seven still use violence to rule.
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May 2, 2020 20:25
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Something bugs me about Zoss, Meti, Maya etc. advocating for not being a violent shithead and making noodles instead. Everyone giving this advice is enough of a violent shithead that they're not going to get ganked by a random bugman with an axe. They lead lovely lives of violence instead of doing something worthwhile, yes, but they are also safe from most of the random violence in the universe, which is EVERYWHERE. Maya defended a noodle vendor in hell 71 who would otherwise absolutely have gotten their poo poo kicked in--I mean, maybe don't set up a noodle stand in gangland hell, but still. If Maya hadn't been a violent shithead she'd probably have died when the yellow city got sacked, if Incubus wasn't a violent shithead he would have starved to death. If Alison never got her training montage she'd probably be a greasy stain by now. Non-violence is a privilege only the very violent get to have in this universe. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but something doesn't quite add up. I suppose it's pretty royal to not give a gently caress if someone murders your rear end?
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May 2, 2020 20:26
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Rhaka posted:Something bugs me about Zoss, Meti, Maya etc. advocating for not being a violent shithead and making noodles instead. the very wise frog, in allowing someone to murder his rear end, totally owned that guy
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May 2, 2020 20:29
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Rhaka posted:Something bugs me about Zoss, Meti, Maya etc. advocating for not being a violent shithead and making noodles instead. Really, this is exactly the Gordian knot that Zoss is trying to untangle. And, well, you know what they say about Royalty.
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May 2, 2020 20:29
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Brain Candy posted:I dunno, I feel like I'm the total opposite of literally everyone and dislike Zoss here. Yeah, he's a bag of tools. Also, poor Alison. Incubus with the amazing advice of "go Super Saiyan and wreck" and Zoss zooming in saying "your friend is dead." Great work guys. Hypocrisy fucked around with this message at 20:46 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 20:31
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I'm not reading him as smug, Solomon is smug and flashy... Zoss is just sick and tired of this poo poo. I can't see Zoss showboating with bangles.
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May 2, 2020 20:38
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