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Captain Splendid posted:I mean, I really dislike George Galloway as a person but I think I'd be ok with him as PM he's working with CPGB-ML, who are lunatics
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May 1, 2020 16:26
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starmer has been labour leader for like a month and he's already set up an inquiry to purge the left
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May 1, 2020 16:51
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Jose posted:starmer has been labour leader for like a month and he's already set up an inquiry to purge the left has anyone called him Der Starmer, yet? edit: I guess his wife and kids are Jewish so that may go over badly but I thought it was a cute pun. 
Torpor has issued a correction as of 18:01 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 17:32
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Torpor posted:has anyone called him Der Starmer, yet? if anyone asks just say you misremembered his name and thought he was called derek, all an honest mistake
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May 1, 2020 19:19
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Torpor posted:has anyone called him Der Starmer, yet? That's smart, he's shielded against any allegations of antisemitism
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May 1, 2020 23:41
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lol no he isn't
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May 2, 2020 00:45
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:lol no he isn't parts of the us media tried to get accusations of antisemitism to stick to bernard fuckin sanders, and the us media is way way way less capable of driving a counterfactual agenda into mainstream consciousness than is the british media
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May 2, 2020 00:47
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After the last election I stopped following british politics for the good of my mental health so missed the whole labour leadership race. How is Starmer? Is he good?
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May 2, 2020 12:41
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He's basically Ed Milliband but more boring and less well intentioned. His first acts as leader have been to try and protect the people who deliberately lost the 2017 election, and to congratulate the government on what a good job they've been doing.
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May 2, 2020 12:49
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He's also been completely silent on the fact that the leader of the 3rd biggest UK trade union is a sex offender (ALLEGEDLY) and a bunch of senior Labour MPs knew about it and did nothing completely coincidentally this is the most right wing major trade union in the country
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May 2, 2020 13:00
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bitterandtwisted posted:After the last election I stopped following british politics for the good of my mental health so missed the whole labour leadership race. he is absolute dogshit garbage trash
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May 2, 2020 13:14
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bitterandtwisted posted:After the last election I stopped following british politics for the good of my mental health so missed the whole labour leadership race. before he won i was in the "wait and see if he's good or shite" camp. now after a few weeks im in the "wait and see if he's shite or evil" camp PawParole posted:George Galloway will be the next prime minister of those benighted islands. What a fitting fate, to be ruled over by a man who thinks he’s a cat Priti Patel is definitely next PM, her or katie hopkins
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May 2, 2020 13:33
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Squizzle posted:parts of the us media tried to get accusations of antisemitism to stick to bernard fuckin sanders, and the us media is way way way less capable of driving a counterfactual agenda into mainstream consciousness than is the british media i think sticking sanders with antisemitic would be successful if he wasnt jewish
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May 2, 2020 14:34
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Lol https://twitter.com/SteveNickSmith/status/1256618338790375425?s=19
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May 2, 2020 18:20
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Continuity RCP posted:he's working with CPGB-ML, who are lunatics I mean. Did they want the uk to have herd immunity? Lunacy seems to be quite a relative term right now.
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May 2, 2020 18:24
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Crowsbeak posted:I mean. Did they want the uk to have herd immunity? Lunacy seems to be quite a relative term right now. No, the CPGB-ML are straight up anti-revisionists, which is to say they are still loving mad that Khrushchev opened up slightly about the abuses of the Stalin era. Big boosters for the DPRK, in fact the party split off from Socialist Labour (in turn an off-shoot in the 90s from Labour when Blair did away with Clause 4 of the party constitution which said "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service" & was a big fighting point between the right & left of the party from at least the '50s) because the SLP wouldn't be uncritical of the DPRK. It's that usual brain poisoning of lefties old enough to have lift through part or all of the Cold War, defending any state that stands up to the US regardless of how loving awful that state is in its own right. Rather than opposing US/western imperialism while simultaneously noticing that plenty of anti-US places aren't exactly great. No, the CPGB-ML are actual bonafide tankies, not just Leninists, & that's lunacy. The guy who founded them, Harpal Brar, is also chair of the Stalin Society, which was explicitly set up to defend him & his "legacy", with things like claiming the purges were just a Yezhov thing & Stalin managed to just not notice this was going on & when he did he stopped it & put down Yezhov (no mention of replacing him with noted rapist Beria of course).
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May 2, 2020 20:14
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forkboy84 posted:No, the CPGB-ML are straight up anti-revisionists, which is to say they are still loving mad that Khrushchev opened up slightly about the abuses of the Stalin era. Big boosters for the DPRK, in fact the party split off from Socialist Labour (in turn an off-shoot in the 90s from Labour when Blair did away with Clause 4 of the party constitution which said "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service" & was a big fighting point between the right & left of the party from at least the '50s) because the SLP wouldn't be uncritical of the DPRK. It's that usual brain poisoning of lefties old enough to have lift through part or all of the Cold War, defending any state that stands up to the US regardless of how loving awful that state is in its own right. Rather than opposing US/western imperialism while simultaneously noticing that plenty of anti-US places aren't exactly great. Actually. None of what you just posted is bad.
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May 2, 2020 20:35
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Crowsbeak posted:Actually. None of what you just posted is bad. rape is extremely bad
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May 2, 2020 20:43
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Communist Thoughts posted:Priti Patel is definitely next PM, her or katie hopkins no Galloway will the next PM. It makes perfect sense if you think about it.
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May 2, 2020 21:49
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forkboy84 posted:No, the CPGB-ML are straight up anti-revisionists, which is to say they are still loving mad that Khrushchev opened up slightly about the abuses of the Stalin era. Big boosters for the DPRK, in fact the party split off from Socialist Labour (in turn an off-shoot in the 90s from Labour when Blair did away with Clause 4 of the party constitution which said "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service" & was a big fighting point between the right & left of the party from at least the '50s) because the SLP wouldn't be uncritical of the DPRK. It's that usual brain poisoning of lefties old enough to have lift through part or all of the Cold War, defending any state that stands up to the US regardless of how loving awful that state is in its own right. Rather than opposing US/western imperialism while simultaneously noticing that plenty of anti-US places aren't exactly great. hell, maybe he’ll shake up that fuddy duddy island with friends like that.
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May 2, 2020 21:50
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Don't associate GPGB-ML with anti-revisionism, lol. Uncritically batting for the DPRK in the 90's is 110% a hallmark of revisionist ML. They belong to the geriatric conservatism wing of ML where the kinds of things Brezhnev and the DPRK tried to preserve from Stalin's legacy were true communist principles and the stuff they revised basically didn't matter. The homophobia is core, the vision of improvement toward a better society for all is forgivable to lose sight of. Anti-revisionism for them is defense of stale dogma rather than principle.
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May 2, 2020 22:20
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forkboy84 posted:No, the CPGB-ML are straight up anti-revisionists, which is to say they are still loving mad that Khrushchev opened up slightly about the abuses of the Stalin era. Big boosters for the DPRK, in fact the party split off from Socialist Labour (in turn an off-shoot in the 90s from Labour when Blair did away with Clause 4 of the party constitution which said "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service" & was a big fighting point between the right & left of the party from at least the '50s) because the SLP wouldn't be uncritical of the DPRK. It's that usual brain poisoning of lefties old enough to have lift through part or all of the Cold War, defending any state that stands up to the US regardless of how loving awful that state is in its own right. Rather than opposing US/western imperialism while simultaneously noticing that plenty of anti-US places aren't exactly great. For me the icing in the cake is that Harpal Brar has made a fortune as an international businessman exploiting small artisans abroad uncop posted:Don't associate GPGB-ML with anti-revisionism, lol. Uncritically batting for the DPRK in the 90's is 110% a hallmark of revisionist ML. They belong to the geriatric conservatism wing of ML where the kinds of things Brezhnev and the DPRK tried to preserve from Stalin's legacy were true communist principles and the stuff they revised basically didn't matter. The homophobia is core, the vision of improvement toward a better society for all is forgivable to lose sight of. Anti-revisionism for them is defense of stale dogma rather than principle. Anti revisionism is a defense of stale dogma
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May 2, 2020 22:31
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uncop posted:Don't associate GPGB-ML with anti-revisionism, lol. Uncritically batting for the DPRK in the 90's is 110% a hallmark of revisionist ML. They belong to the geriatric conservatism wing of ML where the kinds of things Brezhnev and the DPRK tried to preserve from Stalin's legacy were true communist principles and the stuff they revised basically didn't matter. The homophobia is core, the vision of improvement toward a better society for all is forgivable to lose sight of. Anti-revisionism for them is defense of stale dogma rather than principle. Is this one of those things where because Marxists have been calling each other revisionists since about a second after Marx died there's 15 different meanings of it? I was specifically thinking of the people (like Mao & Hoxha & Pol Pot) who got very mad about Khrushchev after the 20th Party Congress. But I recognise that the term has been used from Bernstein onwards, but they define themselves as being opposed to the "revisionism" of Khrushchev in particular so it seems a fair term to use. Tankie morons also works though  The many myriad of offshoot Marxist parties are always fun, from the appalling Trots who all seem to have decided to use democratic centralism to justify covering up sex abuse (or in the case of the Workers Revolutionary Party it just became a a sex cult) to the naval gazing Stalinists too busy yelling at their 3 other members about deviation & revisionism to ever achieve anything of worth. forkboy84 has issued a correction as of 22:48 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 22:42
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quote:At the weekend, Britain’s biggest care home provider, HC-One, wrote to social services officials asking for a financial bailout after modelling showed that occupancy was expected to reduce from its normal 90% to 70% by July.
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May 5, 2020 12:02
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"Reduced occupancy" is a heck of euphemism.
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May 5, 2020 12:40
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forkboy84 posted:Is this one of those things where because Marxists have been calling each other revisionists since about a second after Marx died there's 15 different meanings of it? I was specifically thinking of the people (like Mao & Hoxha & Pol Pot) who got very mad about Khrushchev after the 20th Party Congress. But I recognise that the term has been used from Bernstein onwards, but they define themselves as being opposed to the "revisionism" of Khrushchev in particular so it seems a fair term to use. Tankie morons also works though I didn't want to start a derail in this thread but since nothing been happening here for a while, I'll bite. It's not quite as bad as you imply, but people totally have the right to be confused. You could think of anti-revisionism kind of like many conceptualize feminism, in terms of waves and offshoots within those waves. For instance, no one would consider someone who subscribed to the goals of 1st wave feminism but considered anything beyond that too far wouldn't be considered a feminist in 2020. And e.g. TERFs represent an offshoot of 2nd wave feminism that is also very difficult to consider feminism proper in 2020 even if some neo 2nd wave critics of later feminism still carry credibility. In this analogy, you could think of the original 1910s and 1920s anti-revisionism that was opposed to later social democrats like 1st wave feminism: the questions are so old that the whole current only exists in history at this point. 1960's and 1970's anti-revisionist movements are basically what you think of when you talk about anti-revisionism: they were a bunch of different kinds of tendencies that were united by the fact that they thought Stalin represented something good that was being buried by the current leadership of the CPSU, but the movement was pretty eclectic and had space for a lot of reactionary attitudes. A party like GPGB-ML would have fit in there together with parties like Avakian's RCP in the USA. If CPGB-ML had been founded back then, they could be called anti-revisionists for purely historical purposes sort of like how the oldest TERFs can be called feminists for purely historical purposes and it could be recognized that they contributed something of value for their time even if they were unable to correct mistaken views that doomed them to eventually become a hindrance to the movement they used to contribute to. The thing is, anti-revisionism has officially moved on at least since the 90's, there have been international conferences clarifying what it should mean and the mistakes of the earlier generation. One of the things that have been explicitly clarified that it cannot be about defending dogma and has to be about defending principles: the people insisting on defending e.g. homophobia on the basis of Stalin have been cast out, because homophobia is 100% incompatible with the principles and could only be considered an excusable failure in those historical circumstances. So, there is no such thing as stalinism in general, different generations of people who support Stalin's legacy on the whole take very different attitudes on the specifics of that legacy. There would be a pretty blatant double standard at play if it was somehow a priori impossible to take the positive aspects of Stalin while it's academically mainstream to take the positive aspects of statesmen, philosophers and so on who were terrifying bigots, often condoned genocide and at worst were literal card-carrying nazis. CPGB-ML along with a bunch of other similar ML parties that have cropped up since then are total anachronisms at this point, just like TERF organizations started in the 1990s and 2000s are to feminism. They don't have a real place in today's world, which can be seen in how they can't actually find any allies in their respective next generations and have to latch onto reactionaries for support instead. Supporting the DPRK for today's anti-revisionists would be like supporting conservative think tanks for today's feminists, a complete joke that happens because the organizations doing that don't actually have anything in common anymore with the progressive movements that bred them decades ago. You can imagine what kind of disservice to feminism it would be to associate the worst dregs that historical feminism has produced as the foremost representatives of feminism in Britain today. Everyone basically understands how that would be unacceptable, because they accept feminism to be a genuine movement for liberation. You don't have to accept communism to be liberatory, but anyone reading this who does so should understand this and not confuse the TERFs of communism (which GPGB-ML is) with the movement that defines itself by its active opposition to people like them. Overall I think that it's very good that communists are held to a high standard before they earn the right to be considered to represent liberation, but things would look pretty different and better overall if the same standards were applied consistently to the more mainstream left as well.
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May 5, 2020 13:53
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Squizzle posted:rape is extremely bad Yeah and where in that wall of words about the USSR being amazing is rape mentioned?
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May 5, 2020 15:22
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah and where in that wall of words about the USSR being amazing is rape mentioned? right at the end of it, I think quote:when he did he stopped it & put down Yezhov (no mention of replacing him with noted rapist Beria of course).
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May 5, 2020 15:25
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I just wanted to let people know that I'm running a Fallout game set in the UK starting this Friday 6pm gmt. If you ever wanted to fight robot margret thatcher, it's your sort of game. PM me if you're interested.
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May 5, 2020 16:26
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https://twitter.com/david_third/status/1256638372619194370
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May 5, 2020 16:40
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Continuity RCP posted:he's working with CPGB-ML, who are lunatics true but I'll probably end up voting for em at the next election if they run cos the labour party is officially a dead end now.
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May 5, 2020 17:01
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sometimes these guys stand on the street outside work selling the socialist worker and they all look so pale and depressed and unenthusiastic. and then at the opposite end you have novara selling literally a communist tees online. face it we have no clue lmao.
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May 5, 2020 17:04
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XMNN posted:right at the end of it, I think Like. Ok. One bad thing vs everything else which was actually good. Also. Seriously. How does any of this make them lunatics. The Tories literally have covered up a pedophile ring from the Thatcher era. Like at this point some guys defending Stalin for not killing Beria seems pretty small potatoes versus a party that will likely kill hundreds of thousands of its own countrymen.
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May 5, 2020 17:48
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Crowsbeak posted:Like. Ok. One bad thing vs everything else which was actually good. Also. Seriously. How does any of this make them lunatics. The Tories literally have covered up a pedophile ring from the Thatcher era. Like at this point some guys defending Stalin for not killing Beria seems pretty small potatoes versus a party that will likely kill hundreds of thousands of its own countrymen. Just imagine if Stalin had killed hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen. Wild.
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May 5, 2020 18:07
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This whole discussion is pretty silly, considering Stalin was made up by Khrushchev to justify his own policies. The rest of the USSR, and the world in general, just accepted it because the figure of Stalin was a powerful propaganda figure no matter your ideological bent.
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May 5, 2020 18:10
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Crowsbeak posted:Like. Ok. One bad thing vs everything else which was actually good. Also. Seriously. How does any of this make them lunatics. The Tories literally have covered up a pedophile ring from the Thatcher era. Like at this point some guys defending Stalin for not killing Beria seems pretty small potatoes versus a party that will likely kill hundreds of thousands of its own countrymen. lovely choreography for those goalposts 
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May 5, 2020 18:12
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Squizzle posted:lovely choreography for those goalposts So . Can you give a reason beyond they have dumb views about Stalin and Beria? I mean you going to vote Keir Starmer who is covering up actual racism and sabotage in the Labour Party?
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May 5, 2020 18:18
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I would have a ton more respect for marxist-leninists if they just acknowledged the death and repression under that happened under most of their favourite guys but just accepted it as a neccessary sacrifice to build communism rather than these endless mental gymnastics where they either claim it didn't happen at all or that everyone who did get it was a unforgivable reactionary who definitely had it coming
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May 5, 2020 18:18
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multijoe posted:I would have a ton more respect for marxist-leninists if they just acknowledged the death and repression under that happened under most of their favourite guys but just accepted it as a neccessary sacrifice to build communism rather than these endless mental gymnastics where they either claim it didn't happen at all or that everyone who did get it was a unforgivable reactionary who definitely had it coming I actually do. And most were the latter. Also lol at anyone who votes Labour unless the person they vote for says Corbyn was betrayed.
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May 5, 2020 18:20
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Crowsbeak posted:I actually do. And most were the latter. Also lol at anyone who votes Labour unless the person they vote for says Corbyn was betrayed. lol at I do, and also, I don't. How embarrassing. Are you a Homework Explainer alt?
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May 5, 2020 18:21
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