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https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1256710774719946754?s=21 Second in the world (and first in Europe) at this stage of the epidemic. 
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May 3, 2020 00:12
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I think the out and out "gently caress everyone who isn't a manly man worker down't pit" socialism types are few and far between and generally limited to weird trots/MLs and the like, but I also think, from experience, that it is extremely easy for lovely attitudes to minorities and women to creep in when you're not looking, even (perhaps especially) when people are canny enough to not say it out loud or to couch it in progressive sounding language. What you call radlib is actually not far divorced from what I think is a very important part of leftism, because I see leftism as being fundamentally about liberation, and while economics is probably the biggest form of oppression in most people's lives I don't find myself able to draw a line between that and liberation from social oppression, either directly by individual assholes or equally from just... bad ideas about how societry should be organized? Like gender roles and poo poo. I also don't think those things are in any way in conflict with economic liberation, and I also think that social liberation is one of the biggest sources of optimism and hope nowadays and I want that same energy to be a part of economic liberation too. I want to live to see the bourgeoisie swept aside by a tidal wave of queer as hell happy people, basically. It's my own vision of the new soviet man, I guess. Especially as I think that attacking those social institutions is necessary for building a new sense of community, there is no hope for leftism in a world where people are isolated from each other, and it's in radical social progressive circles that I see the most promising growth of emotional connection with other people. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:23 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 00:13
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Also if women and LGBT folks don't want to join your social movement because you refuse to seriously tackle sexual harassment and worse within your upper ranks then you done hosed up. At this point I'm beginning to think that's a consequence of almost any form of hierarchy, at least that comes out of our current social environment. It affects anti-hierarchical movements too but at least they're more often prepared to gather around and talk about it rather than close ranks around the leadership.
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May 3, 2020 00:25
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And what better demonstration of class consciousness can you have than people smelling the bullshit even when it comes from someone wearing the right colour rosette? People who do that have a sense of (specific, at least) class consciousness that we would kill to have applied against the tories.
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May 3, 2020 00:30
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Guavanaut posted:Also if women and LGBT folks don't want to join your social movement because you refuse to seriously tackle sexual harassment and worse within your upper ranks then you done hosed up. Hierarchy as a concept tends to model itself along the lines of the culture of the societies that create it, and so it's prone to reproducing the same problems inherent in those societies. Which is one reason soft left politics sucks, because if you're not building the organisational structures around the model of the society you want instead of just trying to gently steer the one you live in, you doom yourself to failure, and start percieving threats from people who have justified problems with those societies. That kind of politics can't veer left, it's a locked groove on a vinyl record, it self corrects to perpetuate the status quo. I'm not saying that an effective left has to be necessarily anarchic, but it does need to do the hard work if it wants to avoid ingraining problems
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May 3, 2020 00:33
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OwlFancier posted:Does Orthodox Marxist mean something other than just agreeing with the points marx made? Cos I think I scored pretty high as one on that quiz thing. Nah he's just bad faith trying to land a "ah hah you woke people are all hypocrites, should have never told me off for using cuck with glee abandon if you think Karen is fine" and it's dumb, tedious, and obvious.
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May 3, 2020 00:48
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Except the consistent point I've been getting at is that it doesn't matter what your intent is, it's what you actually say that matters. And that also applies to the ability to make actually correct arguments without belieiving them yourself.  I don't really care whether he thinks they're throwaway rhetoric, they're still correct. The idea that intent changes the substance of a thing is, IMO, postmodernism, and I don't like it.
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May 3, 2020 00:51
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happyhippy posted:I propose Kevin. Why Kevin? Surely Ciaran is closer, or is there an association with the name Kevin I don't know about :/ crispix fucked around with this message at 01:09 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 01:03
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Vitamin P posted:Does the class-reductionist leftist that denies intersectionality is a thing actually exist in any meaningful sense though? I'm closer to that than most posters here but even though I think economic circumstance is the most meaningful intersection by far that doesn't mean poo poo isn't observably much more difficult if you're disabled or an ethnic minority or not cis-normative. Oh, it definitely still exists. Not exactly your full blown "homosexuality is a bourgeois degeneracy" but there are lots of groups who have pretty much a paper thin dedication to LGBT rights or feminism or what have you. Because an awful lot of these groups are thoroughly conservative in the sense of a wretched dedication to orthodoxy, be it Leninist, Stalinist, Trotskyist or Maoist. I think class is far and away the most important thing but it's easy for me to say that as a cis white male who happens to be poor and working class. I also think we have to not worry about insincere liberals using intersectional issues as a bludgeon, while also actively supporting issues like Race, gender, LGBTQ etc because it's the right thing to do. My politics at the end of the day come from my sense of morals, I'm not much of a scientific socialist. I'm a socialist because I think inequality is an absolute evil, same as I am anti-racism because it is an evil. If the only way for socialism to occur involved sacrificing immigrants or gay people I'd be against it even as it would materially benefit me. Sure, don't worry about liberal wokescolds yammering about the misogyny of Karen because who gives a gently caress what liberals think about anything? But you can do that while also not using bonafide slurs. Not out of a performative image of wholeness but just basic decency to comrades. Karen by her definition of running to managers is not a comrade.
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May 3, 2020 01:06
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crispix posted:Why Kevin? They don't have to be alike. The meme for the children of the wannabe-upper-middles is Quentin and Jocasta.
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May 3, 2020 01:14
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Please tell me nobody actually named their daughter Jocasta.
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May 3, 2020 01:18
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Cast_No_Shadow posted:I'm not au-fait with the theory of the left but when it comes to this kind of stuff I generally think. Nah that seems pretty based. It does slap me in the face a little that identity politics suck because they're inherently insufficient and the existing organisations have been coopted, the basic conception isn't actually bad. Coohoolin posted:Nah he's just bad faith trying to land a "ah hah you woke people are all hypocrites, should have never told me off for using cuck with glee abandon if you think Karen is fine" and it's dumb, tedious, and obvious. You keep following me around various threads doing this, it's sort of gratifying to see you get less and less response everytime but to be clear I'm not a crypto or bad faith anything, I'm a cringe sincere poster. Post sincerely with me perhaps together we can heal you.
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May 3, 2020 01:36
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Jedit posted:They don't have to be alike. The meme for the children of the wannabe-upper-middles is Quentin and Jocasta. Well he chose one that WAS alike and mine's MORE alike  Yes I am prepared to take a silly argument on an even sillier tangent.
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May 3, 2020 01:40
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OwlFancier posted:Please tell me nobody actually named their daughter Jocasta. It doesn't appear in the 2018 top-100 list from the ONS, if that cheers you up
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May 3, 2020 01:40
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I mean I would be surprised if reknowned mythical sonfucker Jocasta was in the top 100 but I would feel better if nobody was called that tbh.
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May 3, 2020 01:53
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I would be surprised if reknowned mythical sonfucker Jocasta was in the top 100 but I would feel better if nobody was called that tbh. A cursory search seems to indicate that it's suggested as a name considerably more often than it's actually chosen as a name. It might be tempting to suggest that the people who run 'baby names' websites are trolling the people who visit them, but the 'unborn baby' industry is so loving weird that I wouldn't want to place a bet either way.
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May 3, 2020 02:05
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Is there anything other than parental goodwill to stop people naming their children something truly disgusting like Smegwina or Arsezekiel
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May 3, 2020 02:05
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Vitamin P posted:Sexism within nominally leftist spaces obviously exists, just like uncritically using the term brosocialist to defend a lovely radlib perspective is obviously reductive and serves capital. you never have the slightest clue what you're talking about
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May 3, 2020 02:13
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OwlFancier posted:Please tell me nobody actually named their daughter Jocasta. Better than Electra, at least. 
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May 3, 2020 02:26
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crispix posted:Is there anything other than parental goodwill to stop people naming their children something truly disgusting like Smegwina or Arsezekiel France has a system, but it turns out the people running their system are massive racists while a few other, more liberal countries like Iceland and New Zealand also have systems that seem like they spend most of their time stopping complete fuckwits from naming their children something utterly stupid, so YMMV, I guess
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May 3, 2020 02:38
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The only names that should be banned are those that are computer language terms to delete the record or database if they are input and things consisting of unpronouncable syllables. Otherwise it's fine or a case of terrible parenting but that's something for them to figure out.
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May 3, 2020 02:40
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namesake posted:The only names that should be banned are those that are computer language terms to delete the record or database if they are input and things consisting of unpronouncable syllables. Otherwise it's fine or a case of terrible parenting but that's something for them to figure out. Can you honestly say you'd have been happy to find yourself in this world named Smegwina or Arsezekiel?  Apparently the registering officer can reject names that "[contain] obscenities, numerals, misleading titles, or are impossible to pronounce". Smeg seems to fly under the radar though, I think it being detected as an obscenity would depend on whether the RO had watched Red Dwarf and from personal experience of the kind of people who work in local government administration that's a long shot crispix fucked around with this message at 02:50 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 02:43
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crispix posted:Can you honestly say you'd have been happy to find yourself in this world named Smegwina or Arsezekiel? No but you should rightfully hate your parents for wanting that to be your name in the first place, and will likely have established an independent identity/name very early apart from them. This is clearly not a problem solved by abstract legal rules.
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May 3, 2020 02:45
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If you're going to go around banning people from naming their children stupid things then the aristocracy would have a lot of problems.
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May 3, 2020 03:07
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Guavanaut posted:Also if women and LGBT folks don't want to join your social movement because you refuse to seriously tackle sexual harassment and worse within your upper ranks then you done hosed up. I'm by no means an expert but I'd say the problem* with non-hierarchical groups is an amplification of the willful blindness you often see as the first stage of the (bad) response you get in all groups. I think it just comes out of common natural reactions people have to unpleasant news. Also of course the problem of non-hierarchical groups really quickly becoming hierarchical - and incredibly strictly so - through non-institutional structures is one that's very well-documented. * by "problem" I don't mean it's unique to, or uniquely bad in, such groups, just that they're more vulnerable to it. "Us" and "them" - and believing that bad things are things done by "them", not "us" - seems a very well-worn path in the human psyche.
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May 3, 2020 03:25
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Maybe you could just consider it a form of child abuse? If you genuinely burden your child with the name Superhitler or something you probably should have that child taken away from you. So I guess it could be done on a case-by-case basis in extreme circumstances.
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May 3, 2020 04:52
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I would be surprised if reknowned mythical sonfucker Jocasta was in the top 100 but I would feel better if nobody was called that tbh. Just Ultron
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May 3, 2020 05:10
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OwlFancier posted:Please tell me nobody actually named their daughter Jocasta. I named my night elf arched in WoW Jocasta I'm curious to find out what's wrong with names like Tarquin and Jocasta though. The associations we have attached to them because of class stereotypes is one thing, but some folks seem to get a bit visceral about perfectly cromulent names.
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May 3, 2020 06:19
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Ms Adequate posted:I named my night elf arched in WoW Jocasta They're just loving stupid names
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May 3, 2020 07:06
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of all the mythological figures to pick a name from, the lady who fucks her children isnt one I'd consider tbh
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May 3, 2020 07:20
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You can’t name your child starting with a number because no one coded for it in the 70’s, so passports for them would never work. Poor 4Sure got lumbered with something else. The Karen meme poo poo is dull as gently caress and entirely analogous to the ‘is TERF a slur’ argument and we decided that years ago
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May 3, 2020 08:15
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Total Meatlove posted:You can’t name your child starting with a number because no one coded for it in the 70’s, so passports for them would never work. The Venn diagram of Karens, Terfs, and obnoxious columnists is a circle.
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May 3, 2020 09:02
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Are we really discussing whether Karen is a race thing? For fucks sake you all know one even before it got a twitter meme name, see the 2 people I know, one of which is friends sister where I said that's the last time I go out if she's there, because she Karen's the gently caress out of the last 3 meals at restaurants we've been to and I've had enough, it's embarrassing. And my best friends wife who does a similar thing in a slightly different way, all in the name of 'can we get some freebies if I complain?' I worked retail/pubs for years, and it's always gently caress these people, job dictates you have to condescend to them but it ruins everything for people like me who have to say on the way out 'sorry about the person I'm with, I appreciate the service we got'. In the same way that yuo can completely disregard anyone on Twitter with a Union Jack emoji in their name.
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May 3, 2020 09:15
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serious gaylord posted:The Venn diagram of Karens, Terfs, and obnoxious columnists is a circle. No, it isn't, and I wish people would stop using the meme when talking about very small groups. I mean, you just said that there's only a couple of hundred TERFs maximum in the UK.
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May 3, 2020 09:23
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Vitamin P posted:Does the class-reductionist leftist that denies intersectionality is a thing actually exist in any meaningful sense though? I'm closer to that than most posters here but even though I think economic circumstance is the most meaningful intersection by far that doesn't mean poo poo isn't observably much more difficult if you're disabled or an ethnic minority or not cis-normative. They definitely do. I know a bunch irl the TERF thing has been used as a big wedge issue with many older ML types, before that it was immigration etc.
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May 3, 2020 09:24
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Jedit posted:No, it isn't, and I wish people would stop using the meme when talking about very small groups. I mean, you just said that there's only a couple of hundred TERFs maximum in the UK. I wish that was the case
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May 3, 2020 09:25
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Jedit posted:No, it isn't, and I wish people would stop using the meme when talking about very small groups. I mean, you just said that there's only a couple of hundred TERFs maximum in the UK. I'd be amazed if there was less than a couple hundred thousand. They don't all have to be boots on the ground activists or media personalities.
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May 3, 2020 09:27
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Yeah as a Gay Tran I've definitely seen people (often but not exclusively older) claiming LGBTQ+ issues are bourgeois. Hell, even some gay spaces claim trans issues are Not What The Movement Is About which is especially saddening. I never got the impression it was a particularly widely spread problem on the left, although I'll obviously have a selection bias.
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May 3, 2020 09:34
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Brendan Rodgers posted:I'd be amazed if there was less than a couple hundred thousand. They don't all have to be boots on the ground activists or media personalities. How many radical feminists do you think there are in the UK? TERF doesn't just mean transphobe, it's a very specific group with a very specific hatred - the bloke down the pub making "chicks with dicks" cracks, the Christian fundamentalist talking about what God intends, and the Twitter bluetick egged on by Mumsnet aren't TERFs *even if they use arguments coming from TERFs*, they're just common-or-garden bigots. It just so happens, in the UK at least, that radical feminists of a certain age happen to have a fairly strong media presence, so TERFism seems like a far stronger strand of transphobia than elsewhere.
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May 3, 2020 09:43
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As a trans woman in the UK at this time I am so happy that we're finally tackling the serious issue of *checks notes* policing what constitutes acceptable use of memes on the internet
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May 3, 2020 09:47
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