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RatHat posted:Yeah this bothered me about Mass Effect 3 too. Yeah the ending was poo poo and it’s very disappointing to have the trilogy end like that...but that doesn’t invalidate the previous 30+ hours you enjoyed. The reason people poo poo on the ending so deeply because it was specifically The One Thing the writers and studio made repeated promises they would not do. For Five. Years. It's one of the handful of times the amount of scorn the internet threw at them was entirely justified. FFVIIR's last chapter, comparatively, is just visual noise to throw out a Big Dramatic Climax to end on, because Nomura can't seem to manage a simple grounded ending and thinks you need floaty void fights with ruined buildings for drama (see; the end of every Kingdom Hearts). The better way to cap it off would've been Sephiroth waiting for them and just destroying the actual bridge as a fight with him progresses instead of floaty void fighting against ~Destiny~. They wind up on the ground by the end, stumbling off into the rest of the world.
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May 3, 2020 05:08
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FWIW I think the game would have been better with a more grounded ending too. I want changes (and never had much interest in a straight remake), but for this installment I think they could havestuck to hints like Aerith saying the future isn't written in stone and having weird moments with Marlene and Red while Cloud has unexplained glimpses of the future. That said, having the mission statement of this thing written into the text at the end was at least honest with the fans about the direction this was heading (assuming they don't back out), so I can appreciate that. Plus even if I don't think it needed the full One Winged Angel boss fight treatment, it was pretty loving epic.
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May 3, 2020 05:22
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The reason people poo poo on the ending so deeply because it was specifically The One Thing the writers and studio made repeated promises they would not do. For Five. Years. It's one of the handful of times the amount of scorn the internet threw at them was entirely justified. Ironically if you read the Ultimania this was not Nomura's fault. He actually wanted something less flashy and dramatic.
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May 3, 2020 05:45
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Pollyanna posted:Oh yes. They seem like a vocal minority to me. Even on Era, I remember seeing polls that most people liking it.
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May 3, 2020 05:49
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Flopsy posted:Ironically if you read the Ultimania this was not Nomura's fault. He actually wanted something less flashy and dramatic. Nomura... wanted... less flashy and dramatic?...  Seriously though, that's actually surprising to me.
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May 3, 2020 05:58
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Genuine question, but how is the "fighting on the other side of the wall of destiny" bit any different of a technique from fighting a final boss in what's clearly another abstract space that isn't totally in physical reality, like with...the final boss of the original Final Fantasy 7? Like I don't want to be snide, but I also feel like that it isn't just a Nomura-ism and is a pretty common video game thing.
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May 3, 2020 06:02
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BaDandy posted:Genuine question, but how is the "fighting on the other side of the wall of destiny" bit any different of a technique from fighting a final boss in what's clearly another abstract space that isn't totally in physical reality, like with...the final boss of the original Final Fantasy 7? We're nowhere near the final boss in a multi-part game, and it's a common element of other Nomura-helmed projects. If they go to 11 now, there's nowhere to escalate in further episodes.
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May 3, 2020 06:04
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Neddy Seagoon posted:We're nowhere near the final boss in a multi-part game, and it's a common element of other Nomura-helmed projects. If they go to 11 now, there's nowhere to escalate in further episodes. 12?
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May 3, 2020 06:05
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Sinteres posted:I'm not seeing the downside here. I'm not going full 'drink their tears' or anything, but if people only created media designed to be uncontroversial, we'd have a lot less interesting things to watch/play. Aeris wouldn't have died in the first place, for example. I agree, except I'm also here for the nerd tears too. It's like a really good DLC I didn't have to pay for.
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May 3, 2020 06:08
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This ending is truly a test between idealist and materialist schools of philosophy. Luckily Cloud and co. subscribe to the latter and realize that confronting abstract concepts of Destiny are not the ceiling, or even an end in itself, but simply a roadblock in the way of actually creating material change
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May 3, 2020 06:14
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If you assume Aerith knows at least a decent chunk of the future it makes a lot of her dialogue in the Chapter 8 rooftop excursion a little more laden with meaning.
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May 3, 2020 06:15
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This is simultaneously my favorite game of the year and also I think Chapter 18 is a huge loving mess.
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May 3, 2020 06:16
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FF7R chapter 18.jpg
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May 3, 2020 06:18
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Dreylad posted:If you assume Aerith knows at least a decent chunk of the future it makes a lot of her dialogue in the Chapter 8 rooftop excursion a little more laden with meaning. It's been pretty heavily implied throughout that Aerith either has a guess of what's coming, or knows full-well how this will end for her. Her dialogue throughout the game's rife with subtext leaning that way.
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May 3, 2020 06:19
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Neddy Seagoon posted:We're nowhere near the final boss in a multi-part game, and it's a common element of other Nomura-helmed projects. If they go to 11 now, there's nowhere to escalate in further episodes. we are at the final boss of this 40 hour game though. you cant just think of this as one game spread out into multiple parts cuz thats not what the project is, even if the source material its based off of was just one single game
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May 3, 2020 06:20
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Neddy Seagoon posted:We're nowhere near the final boss in a multi-part game, and it's a common element of other Nomura-helmed projects. If they go to 11 now, there's nowhere to escalate in further episodes. But this is its own game, though. Like it doesn't have a FINAL final boss, but it does have a final boss that gets the whispers out of the way so we can focus on different things in the next games. Not that I think (or want) the rest to end on the exact same tone, but I think the building and cars void was more supposed to be a reference to Advent Children and not Nomura not being able to control himself.
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May 3, 2020 06:20
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I've seen very little but pure joy at this ending, and I really, really don't want them to take back a single goddamn thing.
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May 3, 2020 06:20
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sharrrk posted:we are at the final boss of this 40 hour game though. you cant just think of this as one game spread out into multiple parts cuz thats not what the project is, even if the source material its based off of was just one single game It is and was from the beginning. They only broke it up because of the time involved making it. It's also just not good storytelling, because it just leaps off from a solid escape from Midgar into disjointed abstraction in a literal vacuum and jumps back again afterwards without anything relevant to actually add. The Sephiroth on the Edge of Creation's a nice nod to the actual end of the game, but it's still something for the fans more than anything. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 06:25 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 06:22
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Jetrauben posted:I've seen very little but pure joy at this ending, and I really, really don't want them to take back a single goddamn thing. The Zack fans alone would RIOT if he just up and died again after all that.
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May 3, 2020 06:24
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It is and was from the beginning. They only broke it up because of the time involved making it. or maybe they broke it up because they specifically intended to tell a larger story spread over multiple installments, something that in media that is often referred to as a "series"
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May 3, 2020 06:24
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Jetrauben posted:I've seen very little but pure joy at this ending, and I really, really don't want them to take back a single goddamn thing.  "I miss it. The steel sky" is one of the best moments in any Final Fantasy for like ten different reasons, I didn't expect a remake to make me feel anything but nostalgia but they went for something that was beyond that and even if they whiff the follow-up, in this moment, in how I feel about what I've experienced, they succeeded
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May 3, 2020 06:25
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Nomura... wanted... less flashy and dramatic?... quote:—In regards to the story’s important key points, there must be a flashback scene from here on out, right?
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May 3, 2020 06:25
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Jetrauben posted:I've seen very little but pure joy at this ending, and I really, really don't want them to take back a single goddamn thing. This thread is an anomaly. Almost everywhere else I've looked has been overwhelmingly negative. That doesn't make them right because nerds are dumb sheep (though I do have my own reasons for thinking the ending is bad), and we've seen exactly what happens when a big company just ignores everything they did to placate lovely fans (The Rise of Skywalker). But that doesn't change the fact that by and large this has not gone over well.
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May 3, 2020 06:25
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Beefstew posted:This thread is an anomaly. Almost everywhere else I've looked has been overwhelmingly negative. That doesn't make them right because nerds are dumb sheep (though I do have my own reasons for thinking the ending is bad), and we've seen exactly what happens when a big company just ignores everything they did to placate lovely fans (The Rise of Skywalker). But that doesn't change the fact that by and large this has not gone over well. Really? It's gotten amazing reviews, extremely positive critical feedback, and a lot of joy on social media, as far as I can tell.
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May 3, 2020 06:26
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Bleck posted:or maybe they broke it up because they specifically intended to tell a larger story spread over multiple installments, something that in media that is often referred to as a "series" Still got to have somewhere to escalate to for later entries in the series though.
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May 3, 2020 06:27
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Beefstew posted:This thread is an anomaly. Almost everywhere else I've looked has been overwhelmingly negative. That doesn't make them right because nerds are dumb sheep (though I do have my own reasons for thinking the ending is bad), and we've seen exactly what happens when a big company just ignores everything they did to placate lovely fans (The Rise of Skywalker). But that doesn't change the fact that by and large this has not gone over well. Where? Not like this is the 50s or some poo poo, throw some links out. By and large all the big names, the review sites, the aggregators, every conceivable metric one can look at has been more positive than not. If the "NOMURA IS A loving HACK!" discord has a problem with it that doesn't really say much. Neddy Seagoon posted:Still got to have somewhere to escalate to for later entries in the series though. So the height of your imagination is fighting Sephiroth as a dude? That's it, they did that so there is no-where left for them to go?
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May 3, 2020 06:30
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Still got to have somewhere to escalate to for later entries in the series though. the beats of the original game are still escalations from this game's ending and they could also do literally anything new and different maybe try being excited that fun new things are happening Beefstew posted:Almost everywhere else I've looked has been overwhelmingly negative. how vociferously people complain is often not related to how many people are complaining it's like how people constantly poo poo-talk kingdom hearts and make a big nerd shibboleth about how terrible it is even though it's perfectly good series that's extremely popular case in point: the "third" one that loud stupid nerds have been screeching about for a year is also the best selling of the series and every single person I know that played it that doesn't have a loving neogaf account or whatever really liked it
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May 3, 2020 06:31
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HD DAD posted:Honestly, I think in the interim 23 years, Kitase and company realized “hey, there’s so much more we could have done with this world and lore and characters” - and this is them taking another stab at the overall basic story, taking the skeleton that was presented in the OG and just running deeper with it. I like the idea of "we're making the best version of the world/lore/characters we can with expansions and changes to the story." That I'm totally down with. I just think "the whispers are a metaphor for the previous game/timeline" feels a little heavy handed.
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May 3, 2020 06:33
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Mulva posted:So the height of your imagination is fighting Sephiroth as a dude? That's it, they did that so there is no-where left for them to go? If they're comfortably slaying god-creatures in their home dimensions then how is anything mundane still a legitimate threat to this group?
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May 3, 2020 06:34
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Mordiceius posted:feels a little heavy handed. the original final fantasy 7 is a game where a corporation hurts the environment so bad that climate change manifests as several giant monsters that intend on wiping out humanity, it is not exactly mired in subtlety
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May 3, 2020 06:35
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Beefstew posted:This thread is an anomaly. Almost everywhere else I've looked has been overwhelmingly negative. Then that would have been reflected in the reviews. Which it hasn't. Neddy Seagoon posted:Still got to have somewhere to escalate to for later entries in the series though. Considering the final boss in OG FF7, you think Seph with one wing in this game is already the high point boss-wise? Bleck posted:how vociferously people complain is often not related to how many people are complaining Please make this the new thread title, thanks.
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May 3, 2020 06:35
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Mulva posted:So the height of your imagination is fighting Sephiroth as a dude? That's it, they did that so there is no-where left for them to go? It does raise a lot of questions about how Sephiroth didn't even go full out for this boss fight this time, now that you mention it.
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May 3, 2020 06:37
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Bleck posted:the original final fantasy 7 is a game where a corporation hurts the environment so bad that climate change manifests as several giant monsters that intend on wiping out humanity, it is not exactly mired in subtlety Good thing that 2020's Final Fantasy 7 Remake is not 1997's Final Fantasy 7. Neddy Seagoon posted:We're nowhere near the final boss in a multi-part game, and it's a common element of other Nomura-helmed projects. If they go to 11 now, there's nowhere to escalate in further episodes. That's probably the biggest annoyance I have with how the ending played out. It felt very grounds but then pow! Cloud is leaping through the air and slicing buildings in half. I don't care that it's in an abstract bubble world or whatever. It just feels incredibly tonally inconsistent with everything that came before it. It made power levels just feel fucky.
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May 3, 2020 06:38
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RatHat posted:Yeah this bothered me about Mass Effect 3 too. Yeah the ending was poo poo and it’s very disappointing to have the trilogy end like that...but that doesn’t invalidate the previous 30+ hours you enjoyed. It can. I don't think it does in this case because that's not the kind of game this is, but games(and other media) that base themselves around certain concepts can in fact be invalidated by bad endings. In the case of Mass Effect 3, the entire Mass Effect series sold itself with the concept of "a dynamic story with choices that will matter". That was a main focus of the entire series, and it was what a lot of people were playing for. So, when they got to the ending and it turned out to all be total bullshit, I think it's entirely justified for them to feel that a lot of their experience with that series was now invalidated. You have to think "how much of my enjoyment playing this game was derived from the ultimately false belief that the choices I was making in the story were going to matter?" As a general rule of thumb I think that if you are unable to enjoy replaying the game at all after knowing how it all ends, it's perfectly fair to say the ending ruined the entire thing. As a hypothetical, imagine you're watching a television show and the plot revolves around some kind of great mystery. Your enjoyment of the show is mainly based on the build-up and suspense surrounding the reveal of that mystery, and the characters working toward the answer. Then the answer turns out to be really, really stupid. I think then it's perfectly reasonable to say that the ending ruined the entire show. Of course, FF7R never sold itself as anything but "the Midgar part of FF7 but again and better", that's what people's enjoyment was based on and the ending being dumb doesn't retroactively ruin the way it did that, and shouldn't prevent people from going back and enjoying it on repeat playthroughs.
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May 3, 2020 06:39
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I don't even necessarily subscribe to the idea that "Escalation" is the only way to progress a narrative, people's minds are warped by video game treadmill logic. Star Wars ended with a gigantic space battle for the fate of the Rebellion and a giant planet-destroying threat was destroyed. The next part, which many people regard to have a stronger story, is not an "Escalation" from that in any spectacular/threat way. What it does better is deeper characterization, working with personal stakes, and internal psychology and moral choice. (Coincidentally, we know from the original FF7 and the Remake that these are all things that are important to the middle parts of 7!) I just have a fundamental disagreement with those who believe that because Destiny is a Big Metaphysical Concept that it trumps anything that could happen with the original Sephiroth plot. I was being facetious earlier with the memeposts, but I truly believe believe that abstractly confronting "Destiny" really is just a roadblock in the way about the real/material conflict between Sephiroth/Jenova, Shinra, and the other characters, and that basically anything that comes after really will be an "Escalation." Now if they do get lost up their own asses and we are dealing with repeated multiverse/timeline stuff so that the feeling of real consequences is lost, then oh well. But if they play by the rules that they established in the ending here, that the Whispers are like a WEAPON, and when you defeat a WEAPON, it's gone, then it should be fine. It's like the people who are angry that they used One Winged Angel Sephiroth, because that was the end of Original FF7 and they cannot imagine anything beyond the End of Original FF7. But the whole point of the Remake ending is that they are saying they have more to say beyond what was in the Original Text, and so it's thematically appropriate that they/you confront the thing that, originally, beyond that there was nothing CharlieFoxtrot fucked around with this message at 06:46 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 06:42
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I'd like to hear some suggestions about would have been a better ending from people who didn't like it - do you think it should have just ended after the bike minigame? If we assume they had to have a climactic boss after that, what do you think would have been more satisfying?
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May 3, 2020 06:42
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Neddy Seagoon posted:If they're comfortably slaying god-creatures in their home dimensions then how is anything mundane still a legitimate threat to this group? Nothing is a threat to the group but plot because it's a video game and you are going to win, hope this helps.
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May 3, 2020 06:42
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Did Nomura say why the game was so long? You could probably chunk off 10 to 15 hours easily. I guess he wanted to make sure people felt like it was a full game.
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May 3, 2020 06:43
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BaDandy posted:It does raise a lot of questions about how Sephiroth didn't even go full out for this boss fight this time, now that you mention it. Onmi posted:https://twitter.com/aitaikimochi/status/1256217127457099776 There's an implication here that the Sephiroth in Chapter 18 is different from any the group has faced before, and of course, we'll have to figure it out in the next installments.
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May 3, 2020 06:45
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Pretty sure it was that they wanted to give people a full game experience, yeah.
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May 3, 2020 06:45
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