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I love the game but chapter 17 didn't need to be 4 hours and it didn't need 4 multi phase bosses.
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May 3, 2020 06:46
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Invalid Validation posted:Did Nomura say why the game was so long? You could probably chunk off 10 to 15 hours easily. I guess he wanted to make sure people felt like it was a full game. it turns out that people like to play video games
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May 3, 2020 06:47
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:It's like the people who are angry that they used One Winged Angel Sephiroth, because that was the end of Original FF7 and they cannot imagine anything beyond the End of Original FF7. But the whole point of the Remake ending is that they are saying they have more to say beyond what was in the Original Text, and so it's thematically appropriate that they/you confront the thing that, originally, beyond that there was nothing The problem is that you can't really say "ooh, it's all different now" when it's not. The script may divert, but by the story's own structure the original elements all have to still be there. Filled in with more detail, sure, but the locations and characters are still going to exist the same as they did in FFVII. Bleck posted:I'd like to hear some suggestions about would have been a better ending from people who didn't like it - do you think it should have just ended after the bike minigame? If we assume they had to have a climactic boss after that, what do you think would have been more satisfying? Just a fight with Sephiroth on the bridge, trash that instead of in a void to leave them at ground-level and wandering off to the next game afterwards. Even keep a fuzzy-headed trip to the Edge of Creation that way. Invalid Validation posted:Did Nomura say why the game was so long? You could probably chunk off 10 to 15 hours easily. I guess he wanted to make sure people felt like it was a full game. If they gotta separate it out into multiple games anyway, they may as well do something extra with the assets  .
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May 3, 2020 06:47
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cock hero flux posted:It can. I don't think it does in this case because that's not the kind of game this is, but games(and other media) that base themselves around certain concepts can in fact be invalidated by bad endings. Fair enough quote:As a hypothetical, imagine you're watching a television show and the plot revolves around some kind of great mystery. Your enjoyment of the show is mainly based on the build-up and suspense surrounding the reveal of that mystery, and the characters working toward the answer. Then the answer turns out to be really, really stupid. I think then it's perfectly reasonable to say that the ending ruined the entire show. Isn't this basically how people feel about Lost now?
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May 3, 2020 06:48
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Bleck posted:I'd like to hear some suggestions about would have been a better ending from people who didn't like it - do you think it should have just ended after the bike minigame? If we assume they had to have a climactic boss after that, what do you think would have been more satisfying? Honestly, they could have just put the Sephiroth fight there but had it be fighting Jenova or the cloaked men taking his form instead of time vortex stuff and it would have been a perfectly adequate end-boss without having to deal with Time Ghosts or anything like that.
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May 3, 2020 06:49
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I'm just calling it like I see it, my dudes. There wouldn't be such a massive controversy if it there weren't folks that hated it, and no, it's not just Russian bots or whatever you might think. There are plenty of YT channels that were hyped for the game that felt betrayed by the ending, plenty of streamers who love the game and think the ending sucks, and endless amounts of garbage social media discourse about the matter. You can call it irrational, you can call them wrong, but you can't deny that it's there and that it's significant. The issue is that I can provide tons of anecdotal evidence that will subsequently be dismissed as anecdotal evidence. But what I'm getting at is that I've been all around talking with folks about the ending to try and get a more nuanced understanding of it, and I genuinely haven't seen a community that liked it as much as this thread. It's genuinely astonishing and probably has something to do with a general "gently caress nerds" sentiment. Which I'm down for. But I also incidentally think the ending is poorly written and poorly paced, and I'm not going to lie about my own feelings just to dunk on some obsessive nerds.Bleck posted:I'd like to hear some suggestions about would have been a better ending from people who didn't like it - do you think it should have just ended after the bike minigame? If we assume they had to have a climactic boss after that, what do you think would have been more satisfying?
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May 3, 2020 06:51
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broke: The lyrics to "Hollow" are about Cloud's feelings woke: The lyrics to "Hollow" are about FF7 original purists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3_KCFbtw0 "But I, I know That you're long gone But I, I will Go on, howling and hollow To never know."
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May 3, 2020 06:53
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RatHat posted:Isn't this basically how people feel about Lost now? some people would say this is the case with Game of Thrones but the reality is that it wasn't good from like the second half onwards Beefstew posted:Alternatively, move Jenova Dreamweaver to the end of the highway, maybe make it a bit more elaborate. Or give us a 1v1 sword duel between Cloud and Clone Seph that doesn't lose itself in its scope. These are probably the most reasonable suggestions, the former is what I would have said.
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May 3, 2020 06:54
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Beefstew posted:I'm just calling it like I see it, my dudes. There wouldn't be such a massive controversy if it there weren't folks that hated it, and no, it's not just Russian bots or whatever you might think. There are plenty of YT channels that were hyped for the game that felt betrayed by the ending, plenty of streamers who love the game and think the ending sucks, and endless amounts of garbage social media discourse about the matter. You can call it irrational, you can call them wrong, but you can't deny that it's there and that it's significant. Significant how? Game still sold huge, who the gently caress cares, other than to go  Just because there's a bunch of loud idiots doesn't mean they're in any way representative of the whole.
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May 3, 2020 06:59
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Agents are GO! posted:Significant how? Game still sold huge, who the gently caress cares, other than to go people not liking a thing you liked doesn't make them stupid "but it made a corporation a lot of money" isn't a valid response to criticism directed at a work of fiction
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May 3, 2020 07:01
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cock hero flux posted:"but it made a corporation a lot of money" isn't a valid response to criticism directed at a work of fiction describing a small but vocal group of critics existing as a "massive controversy" is also of questionable validity
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May 3, 2020 07:03
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cock hero flux posted:people not liking a thing you liked doesn't make them stupid I mean, the thread is at the point where criticism is being met with poo poo like Mulva posted:Nothing is a threat to the group but plot because it's a video game and you are going to win, hope this helps. "heh. you care? loser." So at this point I'm not surprised that a lot of people are just yelling fake news at the controversy.
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May 3, 2020 07:06
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I will say that people talking about how poo poo got weird in this game made me actually not only buy it, but continue playing the original since I figured I could always just play that if this was a 1:1 remake and I'm trying not to buy as many video games. I actually haven't been this excited for a Final Fantasy since I started XIV.
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May 3, 2020 07:08
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Bleck posted:describing a small but vocal group of critics existing as a "massive controversy" is also of questionable validity I wouldn't describe it as a massive controversy, no. There is a small but loud group of people who are unbelievably, frothing angry about it and the reactions of those people are very overblown. But the idea that the overwhelming response to the ending was for people to sink to their knees and weep as rays of holy light emanating from their playstation 4 bathed them in true and everlasting happiness while a small group of deformed trolls screeched and hooted in outrage is also very exaggerated. The truth is, most people liked the game overall but reacted to the ending in a range somewhere between "bemused but optimistic" and "disappointed" with a bit of confusion thrown in. Some people really loved it, some people absolutely hated it, most people were like "huh, okay". There's a lot of reasonable criticism that can be directed at the way that they handled it.
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May 3, 2020 07:10
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Conversely I personally know folks who have passed on this game entirely because of what they've heard about the ending. It's having an effect, like it or not. And that sucks because 90% of the game is really good, and I think people will increasingly miss out on that.
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May 3, 2020 07:11
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In the future parts hope they base the chocobo riding controls on FFXV's system because it was very good. You could fuckin' drift.
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May 3, 2020 07:11
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RatHat posted:In the future parts hope they base the chocobo riding controls on FFXV's system because it was very good. You could fuckin' drift. Again, the Nier influences on modern FF are shining through.
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May 3, 2020 07:12
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Beefstew posted:Conversely I personally know folks who have passed on this game entirely because of what they've heard about the ending. I cannot stress enough that it would be a bad idea to make games for people like this
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May 3, 2020 07:12
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cock hero flux posted:people not liking a thing you liked doesn't make them stupid If the  controversy didn't affect the sales, I think that's a pretty good indication that it's just a bunch of signal-boosted idiots going Like they do about anything that doesnt go 100% the way they expected. Bleck posted:I cannot stress enough that it would be a bad idea to make games for people like this Yeah, basically this. Edit: vvv and that! vvv Agents are GO! fucked around with this message at 07:16 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 07:14
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cock hero flux posted:people not liking a thing you liked doesn't make them stupid People not liking a thing and being okay with the fact that they didn't like it doesn't make them stupid. People not liking a thing, and becoming the typical gamer filled with gamer rage that won't even listen to arguments about how it's not a big deal or how other people actually do like it, are in fact, loving morons HTH
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May 3, 2020 07:14
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Asema posted:People not liking a thing and being okay with the fact that they didn't like it doesn't make them stupid. People not liking a thing, and becoming the typical gamer filled with gamer rage that won't even listen to arguments about how it's not a big deal or how other people actually do like it, are in fact, loving morons HTH BTW the gamers are now up in arms and yelling about how Naughty Dog has ruined The Last of Us 2 while turning around on FF7R if Reddit and Twitter are anything to go by so maybe loving laugh at it instead of holding a holier than thou viewpoint
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May 3, 2020 07:15
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Bleck posted:I cannot stress enough that it would be a bad idea to make games for people like this I'm not saying they're right. I've encouraged said people to still play the game. And I think the ending is a mess! People can have nuanced feelings. All I'm saying is that this is happening, and the ending isn't getting showered with sunshine and rainbows everywhere, contrary to what the atmosphere in here might be.
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May 3, 2020 07:15
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Beefstew posted:"heh. you care? loser." I mean it doesn't stop being true just because you want to pretend you aren't wrong. There has never been any internal consistency to the threat level of anything in these games. And there wasn't even before the ending in this particular one. Barret goes from taking death lasers to the face and feeling nothing to being weary of Shinra's golden gun. That's because that's a plot gun that could kill him, rather than a game-play gun that is barely doing meaningful DoT. Throw Sephiroth in at the end, who gives a gently caress? He'll have twenty wings and tentacles in the next game, and the game after that will have you travel back in time to literally headbutt the meteor that brought Jenova to the planet. Who gives a poo poo? It's a video game with a video game plot. It's either good or it's not, internal consistency of threat has never been a part of the package. Mulva fucked around with this message at 07:22 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 07:16
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Just like how it's absolutely dumb to try and chase after the mythical republican that might vote for a Democrat, trying to bend to the will of ~+*GAMERS*+~ is just as futile. There is a load of criticism to be thrown at FF7R. There's a lot of good criticism that hopefully they will improve for the next part. But going into a frothing rage about this game, and even earlier in this thread where "Square lied to us about what a Remake is!" rages should be made fun of with full extent of terrible jokes and ribbing
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May 3, 2020 07:18
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:This ending is truly a test between idealist and materialist schools of philosophy. when do they sit down and blame the whispers for their own apathy
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May 3, 2020 07:19
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Beefstew posted:All I'm saying is that this is happening, and the ending isn't getting showered with sunshine and rainbows everywhere, contrary to what the atmosphere in here might be. and all we're saying is that the people who it's happening to basically don't matter and nobody cares "I skipped the game because my favorite youtuber had a meltdown over it" might just be the world's least interesting opinion Mulva posted:It's either good or it's not, internal consistency of threat has never been a part of the package. yeah I feel like the people who are now complaining about "power levels" are also the people who twenty years ago were asking questions like "why didn't they just use a phoenix down on aeris? this is dumb, there's no consistency"
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May 3, 2020 07:19
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Beefstew posted:Conversely I personally know folks who have passed on this game entirely because of what they've heard about the ending. It's having an effect, like it or not. And that sucks because 90% of the game is really good, and I think people will increasingly miss out on that. Most of those people will come around if Part 2 comes out and is good. That's the feeling I'm getting from that group. They've heard rumours about the ending being this big nonsensical Kingdom Hearts thing and are afraid that the whole series is going to be like that moving forward. basically the problem with the ending of FF7R for me is that they've put a big dumb JRPG ending about 15% of the way into the plot of a JRPG, so it feels like it's out of nowhere. Normally they ease you into fighting god. In this you go straight from "a big robot" to "the abstract concept of fate" over about half an hour. So the pessimists and the people who haven't actually played are assuming that it's all going to be hardcore JRPG nonsense from here on out whereas I'm pretty sure what they're actually going to do is somewhat jarringly dial it back at the beginning of part 2 and things are going to end up back on track, though not necessarily the same track as the original.
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May 3, 2020 07:20
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Bleck posted:and all we're saying is that the people who it's happening to basically don't matter and nobody cares why does goku wait fifty years before doing the move that wins
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May 3, 2020 07:20
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cock hero flux posted:basically the problem with the ending of FF7R for me is that they've put a big dumb JRPG ending about 15% of the way into the plot of a JRPG, so it feels like it's out of nowhere A New Hope still has a climax even though it's part one of three of the story
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May 3, 2020 07:22
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Beefstew posted:All I'm saying is that this is happening, and the ending isn't getting showered with sunshine and rainbows everywhere, contrary to what the atmosphere in here might be. Then maybe you should have started off saying that instead of opening with exaggerated poo poo like: Beefstew posted:Almost everywhere else I've looked has been overwhelmingly negative.
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May 3, 2020 07:26
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I mean I saw lots of negativity on a thread on Spacebattles from the people predictably demanding an exact remake with minor expansions, but it's Spacebattles and opinions are bad there.
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May 3, 2020 07:30
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Bleck posted:and all we're saying is that the people who it's happening to basically don't matter and nobody cares I think folks have become used to ludonarrative dissonance between how gameplay rules work vs how cutscene rules work. Although I'm gonna come out and say that I thought the golden gun thing was extremely dumb. Like, give him something that looks a little powerful, c'mon. I think the ending does stretch things too far and rubs people the wrong way. It's hard to nail down specifically why this may be, but my best guesses are a). because it becomes visually reminiscent of Advent Children, and b). it pivots the direction of the power fantasy. I find it a lot easier to forget how dumb it is when Cloud slices through a helicopter because I've been conditioned to hate Shinra and I want to see him slice the helicopter in half. I think that because we have the characters fighting against a concept that, textually, we might have difficulty empathizing with, that it becomes harder to ignore the absurd stuff. I think it makes some people emotionally distant to the events on screen and prevents them from enjoying otherwise over-the-top dumb action. anakha posted:Then maybe you should have started off saying that instead of opening with exaggerated poo poo like:
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May 3, 2020 07:30
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Agents are GO! posted:If the I could say a lot here about how determining the exact effect this has had on sales now and will have on sales in the future is difficult, but I won't because I don't want to even slightly engage with this line of thinking. Dismissing criticism of a work because it made a lot of money is an atrocious mindset, as is declaring that something is bad because it sold poorly.
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May 3, 2020 07:30
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Bleck posted:A New Hope still has a climax even though it's part one of three of the story Sure, but it was written as a singular, complete film. It was not originally written as 10ish% of a single film and then later released as a standalone. also there really is no way that george lucas actually wrote or had even really thought of much beyond a New Hope at the time, that's all very transparently bullshit he came up with later
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May 3, 2020 07:33
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cock hero flux posted:I could say a lot here about how determining the exact effect this has had on sales now and will have on sales in the future is difficult, but I won't because I don't want to even slightly engage with this line of thinking. Dismissing criticism of a work because it made a lot of money is an atrocious mindset, as is declaring that something is bad because it sold poorly. If the criticism is "This thing isn't popular and nobody likes it" then it's 100% valid to go "It sold literally a billion copies, and then the sequel sold two billion. More people have consumed that media than have homes in the world.", if that's a thing that is true. When the criticism is explicitly the number of bodies in seats consuming the media the number of people that consumed the media is the only thing that matters, because you've stopped making a subjective argument and started making an objective one. We can't objectively tell you that thing is good and you are wrong for not liking thing. We can objectively tell you that a bunch of people bought thing and continued to buy thing after knowing what it was.
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May 3, 2020 07:38
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Mulva posted:If the criticism is "This thing isn't popular and nobody likes it" then it's 100% valid to go "It sold literally a billion copies, and then the sequel sold two billion. More people have consumed that media than have homes in the world.", if that's a thing that is true. When the criticism is explicitly the number of bodies in seats consuming the media the number of people that consumed the media is the only thing that matters, because you've stopped making a subjective argument and started making an objective one. We can't objectively tell you that thing is good and you are wrong for not liking thing. We can objectively tell you that a bunch of people bought thing and continued to buy thing after knowing what it was. It's a valid factual response to someone saying "nobody bought this thing" to say "actually lots of people bought this thing", yes. But it's not a valid response to "there appear to be a lot of people who have a specific issue with this thing" and it's especially not a valid response to "I, personally, have a specific issue with this thing".
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May 3, 2020 07:43
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RatHat posted:
Bet you that quote is exactly about Lost. God what a loving dumb ending. I really enjoyed all six seasons right until the last ten minutes. I did not think it was possible to actually ruin an entire show like that, until I finished Lost. They had so many different and obvious ways to come to a satisfying ending (and they very nearly did! It looked like for a while the characters succeeded with the nuke by transferring their consciousnesses to an alternative & better timeline, and continuing from there). People poo poo on Game of Thrones, but Lost was the OG poo poo-on-everything-at-the-last-minute show and is a case study on how writers really need to plan out their stories well in advance Zedsdeadbaby fucked around with this message at 07:48 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 07:45
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Beefstew posted:Again, the Nier influences on modern FF are shining through. I thought that there were some Nier-y vibes during my playthrough of FF7 remake, off the top of my head the way you go through Shinra Tower via a group tour presentation reminded me of the Tower in several ways, just that it’s this tonal juxtaposition at the climax of the game and also the voice acting is just a very similar corporate simulacrum of humanity, except one is actual robots mimicking humans and the other is a group of rich people trying to mimic humans. But since I’ve seen a lot of Star Wars comparisons by many different people, here and on a YouTube, they need to copy Star Wars and have different people directing each part, and have Yoko Taro direct or produce the next game, or just give him the final game to make the people who are already pissed even more angry. And also because it would just rule, obviously.
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May 3, 2020 07:47
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Beefstew posted:It's hard to nail down specifically why this may be, but my best guesses are a). because it becomes visually reminiscent of Advent Children I've said this before but Advent Children is a lot better than its internet reputation implies Beefstew posted:I find it a lot easier to forget how dumb it is when Cloud slices through a helicopter because I've been conditioned to hate Shinra and I want to see him slice the helicopter in half. I think that because we have the characters fighting against a concept that, textually, we might have difficulty empathizing with, that it becomes harder to ignore the absurd stuff. I think it makes some people emotionally distant to the events on screen and prevents them from enjoying otherwise over-the-top dumb action. maybe this is why I liked the ending so much, because I literally fight a giant composed of the concept of entitled tasteless nerds cock hero flux posted:also there really is no way that george lucas actually wrote or had even really thought of much beyond a New Hope at the time, that's all very transparently bullshit he came up with later there is a significant amount of evidence that heavily confirms this is not the case but that's a whole other nerd shibboleth to tackle which has whole threads dedicated to it on this very forum
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May 3, 2020 07:48
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Imhotep posted:I thought that there were some Nier-y vibes during my playthrough of FF7 remake, off the top of my head the way you go through Shinra Tower via a group tour presentation reminded me of the Tower in several ways, just that it’s this tonal juxtaposition at the climax of the game and also the voice acting is just a very similar corporate simulacrum of humanity, except one is actual robots mimicking humans and the other is a group of rich people trying to mimic humans. I was absolutely getting Tower vibes from the late game Shinra stuff. The music and sound design were also similar, as well as some of the visual details (falling cubes of concrete during the Valkyrie fight). It's impossible to tell for sure, but between all of that, some of boss designs (Hell House comes to mind), and the metanarrative stuff, I definitely believe Nier Automata was a creative influence for parts of this game. Which is crazy to consider.
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May 3, 2020 07:53
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