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LastInLine posted:Cleveland isn't exactly accessible from either MI or PA and Columbus just a capital and college town but if you consider Indy a metropolis I feel like you have to give it to Columbus as well since they're almost exactly the same size. way to forget the thriving youngstown steel industry, defender of Appalachian civilization, 3rd pittsburgh.
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May 3, 2020 21:00
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:way to forget the thriving youngstown steel industry, defender of Appalachian civilization, 3rd pittsburgh. Youngstown and Toledo are close enough to the border that you can say their workforce comes from a multistate area. OP was commenting on Indy's centrality.
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May 3, 2020 21:10
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SKULL.GIF posted:what do you define as "self-sufficiency"? knocking off the rust from the dead factories and reopening them might take awhile, but there's more than enough food, water, and lumber here to support a population indefinitely in the event of national/global collapse, we just wouldn't have the various doodads that entertain us it would take 20 years to train another generation of engineers to know how to restart production. right now only 3.5% of college grads are engineers and a lot of them go into software development anyway
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May 3, 2020 21:21
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GATES FOUNDATION posted:it would take 20 years to train another generation of engineers to know how to restart production. right now only 3.5% of college grads are engineers and a lot of them go into software development anyway but long ago there were almost zero college grads and yet very big production
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May 3, 2020 22:04
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It takes like three years to make an engineer they're not that hard to find, and you don't even need them for a lot of stuff
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May 3, 2020 22:38
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Especially if you don't give a poo poo about stuff like fine tolerances or consumer aesthetics. Engineer make gear and gear go whirrrrrrrr
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May 3, 2020 22:41
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Crazycryodude posted:It takes like three years to make an engineer they're not that hard to find, and you don't even need them for a lot of stuff there's virtually nobody left in the US who knows how to make a screw and the toolings that the few remaining domestic fastener plants use date from WWII
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May 3, 2020 22:55
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It's almost like "make a bunch of metal spirals" is a solved problem for any society with metalworking technology more advanced than Europe in the mid-1700's, especially if you're fine with them just being decent screws instead of micron-tolerance space screws.
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May 3, 2020 23:09
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GATES FOUNDATION posted:there's virtually nobody left in the US who knows how to make a screw and the toolings that the few remaining domestic fastener plants use date from WWII amerikkka is screwed
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May 4, 2020 00:47
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GATES FOUNDATION posted:it would take 20 years to train another generation of engineers to know how to restart production. right now only 3.5% of college grads are engineers and a lot of them go into software development anyway just fly in a bunch of chinese guys
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May 4, 2020 02:45
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Crazycryodude posted:It's almost like "make a bunch of metal spirals" is a solved problem for any society with metalworking technology more advanced than Europe in the mid-1700's, especially if you're fine with them just being decent screws instead of micron-tolerance space screws. We still use mathematics developed during the classical era, checkmate America
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May 4, 2020 02:47
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GATES FOUNDATION posted:there's virtually nobody left in the US who knows how to make a screw and the toolings that the few remaining domestic fastener plants use date from WWII Off the top of my head, Holo-krome. But there must be hundreds of fastener manufacturers supporting aerospace and military. The problem with precision domestic manufacturing is cost and scale, not knowledge.
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May 4, 2020 03:40
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Crazycryodude posted:It takes like three years to make an engineer they're not that hard to find, and you don't even need them for a lot of stuff It takes three years to make a college graduate with an engineering degree. That's a long drat way from a useful engineer, and I speak as exhibit A. And yes, all those 1900s people tooling up factories weren't graduates, but they drat sure apprenticed under someone who apprenticed under someone... That knowledge chain has definitely been broken or is almost there. When I was in college far too long ago, they were already saying that anyone who wanted to be an electrical engineer could write his own ticket, since the whole department was going towards computer architecture/coding and all the people who knew how to keep a transmission line going were aging out. The average age of techs where I work is well above 50, simply because it's hard to find a young guy who knows even enough to get him started working under one of our established guys, and I don't think I know of ANY younger guys who didn't learn their skills outside the military. And I'm talking like, High Voltage and I&C stuff. poo poo you can learn in colleges with programs for that stuff. Tool and Die is a big deal and the American talent pool is very shallow and drying fast. I've only ever met one young T&D guy in my life, and now, for the purposes of the thread I wish I could remember where he even went to school to get that degree. On the other hand, the various American belligerents' branding and social media game is going to be on point. We got plenty of them. ryanrs posted:The problem with precision domestic manufacturing is cost and scale, not knowledge. As ever, I take three paragraphs to say what someone else said in a sentence. PipHelix has issued a correction as of 03:52 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 03:42
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For example, Silicon Valley is just full of small machine shops, sheet metal shops, fabrication shops, etc. The ones I know are really small, like a couple machining centers tucked away in a tiny space in an industrial park. They do a lot of quick-turn prototype work for the big tech giants. Like when Google designs a new type of server, all the sheet metal work for the prototypes is done by small local bay area places. It's the same with PCBs. I could totally get a 10-layer motherboard etched at Bay Area Circuits in Fremont, and stuffed at Tempo Automation in SF. We don't have the scale for high-volume production, or low cost, but we can build pretty much whatever. Scaling up is definitely possible. Lowering cost might be more thorny.
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May 4, 2020 04:17
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Plus, they'd just import hundreds of Germans. Or does this scenario also include The Closing Of The Seas?
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May 4, 2020 05:10
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mossyfisk posted:Plus, they'd just import hundreds of Germans. You're assuming any EU states will allow travel to the corona ridden successor states of the former US
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May 4, 2020 05:23
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DrSunshine posted:I wonder which states/sub-federal regions are diversified enough economically to form autarkies? Could the Midwest be self-sufficient on its own? The Midwest/Great Lakes region has lots of coal, iron ore, rivers, agriculture, and railroads. So probably a better bet than anywhere else
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May 4, 2020 05:41
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Goreld posted:When California separates, can we just leave Orange County behind? Or even better, just build a Chernobyl dome over it? Make a deal to let the Disney Storm Troopers clear out the area.
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May 4, 2020 06:03
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Zeno-25 posted:The Midwest/Great Lakes region has lots of coal, iron ore, rivers, agriculture, and railroads. So probably a better bet than anywhere else This is what I am thinking. The much-vaunted Western States Pact strikes me as abundant in agriculture, forestry resources, and some raw materials, and has great high-tech stuff, but strikes me as lacking a lot of the infrastructure for basic heavy industry. Thankfully we have abundant coastline and ports, but we wouldn't be able to get by on autarky like the midwest.
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May 4, 2020 06:33
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DrSunshine posted:This is what I am thinking. The much-vaunted Western States Pact strikes me as abundant in agriculture, forestry resources, and some raw materials, and has great high-tech stuff, but strikes me as lacking a lot of the infrastructure for basic heavy industry. Thankfully we have abundant coastline and ports, but we wouldn't be able to get by on autarky like the midwest. does the west really lack that stuff though? there are oil and gas fields, refineries, the raw materials you mentioned, plus a bunch of manufacturing. Just speaking for the Bay Area, there's 5 oil refineries, at least one chemical plant, concrete plants, quarries, manufacturing for semiconductors, buses, cars (tesla lmao but it used to be a Toyota/GM factory), plus a bunch of random stuff like food processing, rendering plants, lil fancy hat factories or whatever. If i remember right, LA was at the top for employment in the manufacturing sector among US metro areas, and the Bay Area was in the top 10 as well. Obviously they mostly aren't manufacturing steel beams and tractors, but its not like new factories can't be set up for that stuff if necessary.
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May 4, 2020 07:01
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We don't have a lot of mining, smelting, steel production, etc in California. I think the Bay Area has a bunch of mercury reserves, if you want to start mining that again (please don't). And of course we have limestone quarries for making concrete and aggregate (you'd be surprised how local concrete production is). But I don't think we have a lot of metal production, or coal. I think we'd need to import that.
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May 4, 2020 07:37
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ryanrs posted:We don't have a lot of mining, smelting, steel production, etc in California. I think the Bay Area has a bunch of mercury reserves, if you want to start mining that again (please don't). And of course we have limestone quarries for making concrete and aggregate (you'd be surprised how local concrete production is). But I don't think we have a lot of metal production, or coal. I think we'd need to import that.  If Colorado is joining up with the WSP, I can't imagine Utah will be able to say no being sandwiched between them and Nevada. I can't find any good maps for US metal production, but surely there's at least a plant or two around LA?
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May 4, 2020 07:46
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https://www.fedsteel.com/our-blog/five-states-strongest-steel-industries/ According to this the top five states are Indiana, North Carolina, Texas, Pennsylvania, and California https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/steel-suppliers-manufacturers/ four cities in California proved over 30 million in steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_during_World_War_II During world War II Los Angeles was a manufacturing juggernaut. And Berkley Built the loving Bomb. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph241/koshy2/
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May 4, 2020 07:53
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mining claims on federal land in the western US, from 1976-2010:
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May 4, 2020 08:00
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Well yes, we use plenty of steel in California. So we have some rolling mills and probably a few mini-mills, I assume. But I don't think there is any primary steelmaking happening in California (or the other west coast states). By which I mean a real integrated steel mill that takes in coke and ore and spits out steel. We just don't have them around here because we also don't have any iron ore or coal. (I'm not 100% sure of this though, so feel free to mention any mills you know of.)
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May 4, 2020 08:14
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mazzi Chart Czar posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_during_World_War_II yeah, the Bay Area too, for ship building. I feel like american media has spread this image of CA not having "real" industry, which has never been the case. yeah there might not be giant steel mills or coal mines but theres still lots of big machine-y factory poo poo and other kinds of mines and oil wells and refineries and stuff Rah! has issued a correction as of 08:18 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 08:16
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ryanrs posted:Well yes, we use plenty of steel in California. So we have some rolling mills and probably a few mini-mills, I assume. But I don't think there is any primary steelmaking happening in California (or the other west coast states). By which I mean a real integrated steel mill that takes in coke and ore and spits out steel. We just don't have them around here because we also don't have any iron ore or coal. Well gently caress if coke, whores, and shooting poo poo doesn't describe my dream job post-Balkanization.
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May 4, 2020 08:26
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May 4, 2020 08:38
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ryanrs posted:Well yes, we use plenty of steel in California. So we have some rolling mills and probably a few mini-mills, I assume. But I don't think there is any primary steelmaking happening in California (or the other west coast states). By which I mean a real integrated steel mill that takes in coke and ore and spits out steel. We just don't have them around here because we also don't have any iron ore or coal. Indiana is number 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_and_steel_industry_in_the_United_States Getting deeper into it. So there are these nine mills that are called Integrated Mills that produce 31% of steel Then there are these smaller custom mills that make 59% of steel in the US. https://archive.epa.gov/sectors/web/html/map-6.html According to this map there is one small mill southern California. Biggest steel producer https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/11628/nucor-ranked-as-america%27s-largest-steel-producer has some California connection. But a big political question would be this: if California was going to split to from the rest of the USA what other countries near by would love to make a deal with California. Canada, especially if the whole west coast joins up that would mean it straight road from Canada to Mexio with little to no hassle. That would be able to choke some supplies from the midwest. Though the bigger monster in the room is why not just call up China and Japan? The number 1 and 2 biggest producers who make raw steel and probably already have trading agreement right now. California without the rest of the USA sticking there hands in everybody's pockets, is a sweet deal. https://www.steel-technology.com/articles/steel-producing-companies-of-the-world The top corporation isn't going to let a little thing like multiple nations stop it from selling. The rest (top9) are corporations in Japan and China. East coast of the USA doesn't exist in manufacturing steel. https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-fi-trump-tariffs-california-20180302-story.html Also California imports from Brazil. (Paywall) mazzi Chart Czar has issued a correction as of 08:44 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 08:38
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I suppose the Chinese navy would control the Pacific? Yeah, I guess trade with them.
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May 4, 2020 08:58
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Chinese navy isn't big enough to have the same hegemony the us navy currently has. Even tenth of the us navy sticking with the western States pact means they have one of the largest navies on the planet.
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May 4, 2020 14:00
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lignite my balls
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May 4, 2020 16:23
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A new chapter of American history begins here, at this place Colorado, "Rockmountain". Strike the earth!
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May 4, 2020 17:28
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ryanrs posted:Well yes, we use plenty of steel in California. So we have some rolling mills and probably a few mini-mills, I assume. But I don't think there is any primary steelmaking happening in California (or the other west coast states). By which I mean a real integrated steel mill that takes in coke and ore and spits out steel. We just don't have them around here because we also don't have any iron ore or coal. Kaiser was brought in by FDR to jumpstart industry out west in WWII. If I remember correctly the ore and coal came from Utah or Arizona, and was smelted in places like Fontana. The smelters are long gone and those supply chains only made sense in a total war setting so all the rail lines have atrophied and the mines are closed. But then again, if the Mormons start getting shirty we can always just reopen KofA park and get that sweet sweet ore. Fun fact, Kaiser, for an industrialist born in the 19th century, was a reasonable dude. He insisted on a union in his shop so there was one contract negotiation and that's IT so as not to distract from fighting the japanese, and his offering health coverage for his workers was both extremely generous for the time and also locked us into the employer provided healthcare paradigm we're all suffering under. And of course, his entire steel and manufacturing empire has been entirely subsumed by the metastisizing health plan he created 80 years ago.
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May 4, 2020 20:00
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Agean90 posted:Chinese navy isn't big enough to have the same hegemony the us navy currently has. Even tenth of the us navy sticking with the western States pact means they have one of the largest navies on the planet. Yet
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May 4, 2020 20:39
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Agean90 posted:Chinese navy isn't big enough to have the same hegemony the us navy currently has. Even tenth of the us navy sticking with the western States pact means they have one of the largest navies on the planet. How many of the Chinese boats have radar that needs to be turned off and then on again every 10 minutes? How many supertankers have they run into because they don't have enough qualified sailors for a full watch? Bigger != Better.
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May 4, 2020 20:50
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PipHelix posted:How many of the Chinese boats have radar that needs to be turned off and then on again every 10 minutes? How many supertankers have they run into because they don't have enough qualified sailors for a full watch? Bigger != Better. no to mention that american supercarriers are such white elephants that at any given time only 4 of them are operational and 7 are in for long term maintenance and refit
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May 4, 2020 20:52
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GATES FOUNDATION posted:no to mention that american supercarriers are such white elephants that at any given time only 4 of them are operational and 7 are in for long term maintenance and refit "Operational" in the modern US Navy is almost a term of art, given how little alignment there is between its use and meaning in the Navy vs. among the majority of English speakers: https://www.propublica.org/series/navy-accidents-pacific-7th-fleet
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May 4, 2020 22:40
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superpowers haven’t had a navel battle in 75 YEARS no one has any idea
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May 4, 2020 22:42
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When you think about it, all symmetrical modern military doctrine is based on theory and no one serving at any level has any first hand experience fighting against a state foe that posed an existential threat. Literally no one.
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May 4, 2020 22:44
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