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kumba posted:call it more of a subconscious thing, where scum often feel they have to give themselves an "out" when knowingly voting for a townie This is an extremely weak reason to hold onto a vote.
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May 4, 2020 19:19
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The Ninth Layer posted:Both? Does that make sense?
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May 4, 2020 19:20
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The Ninth Layer posted:This is an extremely weak reason to hold onto a vote. i would still be voting him had that entire exchange not happened
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May 4, 2020 19:20
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The Ninth Layer posted:This is an extremely weak reason to hold onto a vote. further, it would also be an extremely weak reason to change my vote dislike this post
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May 4, 2020 19:21
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CapnAndy posted:Here is what I think: assuming TT is scum and both Nad and Liger are town, TT sees Nad making a case on Liger, but it's a bad case. "I do not think this case will survive", thinks hypothetical Tom, "and that means one of my buddies may end up Going Away today. But if it crumbles, people will be annoyed with Nad. If I can start building a bandwagon against him now, when that happens everyone will vote Nad instead, and it'll still be a townie who gets removed, and if the case doesn't crumble after all, I get townie cred for having called it out early." If you assume Tom Tucker is scum I suppose it works, but why make that assumption when there's a simpler way this went down: Tom saw LordNad's bad case and said to himself "hmm this case looks scummy." As the punctuation to your case it's not very convincing, so I'm wondering if you have a better bullet point reason for thinking Tom is scum than this.
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May 4, 2020 19:24
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kumba posted:further, it would also be an extremely weak reason to change my vote You're the one framing his "BUT blue cheese" bit as a concerning psychological tell. It's weak and furthermore it's not very honest to pretend this is some serious out: kumba posted:huh, town read on me out of nowhere, hedged "BUT..." Liger shouldn't have had to point out it was an obvious joke line.
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May 4, 2020 19:25
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kumba posted:further, it would also be an extremely weak reason to change my vote
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May 4, 2020 19:28
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blue cheese is extremely stupid (and also bad)
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May 4, 2020 19:31
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kumba posted:blue cheese is extremely stupid (and also bad) THATS IT YOUR SCUM
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May 4, 2020 19:35
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The Ninth Layer posted:If you assume Tom Tucker is scum I suppose it works, but why make that assumption when there's a simpler way this went down: Tom saw LordNad's bad case and said to himself "hmm this case looks scummy." I freely admit I'm a bit on edge with him, as he was scum in HP mafia and he juked the everloving fork out of me several times in that game, but he also posted a lot of long posts that didn't say much at all there too. So when I see hiim going on an over-detailed attack on Nad that has a lot of white noise in it, I get twitchy.
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May 4, 2020 19:37
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kumba posted:merk also said he was unavailable over the weekend OFFICER LIGER posted:merk said earlier he wasnt going to be available for a couple of days which is why he hasnt been posting. Right, and if it was just a matter of not posting, I wouldn't care. The fact that he posts a couple of drive-by's propped up on popsicle sticks and glue just to be seen is worth fingering him with suspicion. 
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May 4, 2020 19:42
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CapnAndy posted:I don't like his case against Nad and I especially don't like how he's posting a ton of words in very long posts that don't actually say much at all when you boil them down. I think this is a funny bullet point summary to come out of a post where you quoted Tom eleven times.
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May 4, 2020 19:54
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I am also out of town and will be home tonight. Expect a few posts from me later. I am trying to get reads, but it's been a while since I've played and I've forgotten anyone's tells. Also I don't remember how to play. I've been trying to stay up-to-date on the thread, but something about reading on the phone makes it so hard to keep people straight. From the hip, TT always looks like scum to me, especially because of all the posts, but im remiss to vote against active players early. Something about how Voodoofly is posting isn't sitting right with me, but I don't have an actual case. I also agree with the one or two other people that have mentioned Yuming's behavior also seems strange. LordNad case seems weak, Liger case seems reasonable, but also not very substantial. I can see why it's gaining traction, because Liger is just acting really inconsistently. Sorry this isn't anything useful, yet. I don't have any strong town reads from anyone at all at this moment, but I think its improbable that Amnistar is scum, so probably the only person I wouldn't vote for right now. Everyone else is suspect.
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May 4, 2020 20:04
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The Ninth Layer posted:I think this is a funny bullet point summary to come out of a post where you quoted Tom eleven times. (I'm aware I trend to megaposts and wordiness, the hypocrisy did not escape me)
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May 4, 2020 20:11
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Khris Kruel posted:I have no idea why y'all are giving Liger a town pass, he is worthless and doing his best attempt to keep us in joke vote phase This is a better case against LIGER than your earlier one about his vote for amnistar.
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May 4, 2020 20:13
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The Ninth Layer posted:Both? I don't think I agree with how Andy constructed the case against Tom. However I am leary of Tom's lord Nad votes is the flipping away from it when Lord Nad gave some resistance, then when people gave support going back on the vote. Though I suppose that I would think that Tom as scum would stick on the case even with resistance. Along with tom casing multiple people, I think I'm fine with Tom.
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May 4, 2020 20:20
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kumba posted:blue cheese is extremely stupid (and also bad) What is your case on Liger? I've read your posts a few times and still don't really get it.
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May 4, 2020 20:21
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hambeet posted:It’s day one with a gazillion hours left and what I’d consider some pretty good day 1 content, and you’re suggesting we pursue the lurker’s? Do you have anything better? You have a lot of "these are bad" but nothing else.
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May 4, 2020 20:23
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I'm swapping over to kid care at 1:00, so probably way less posting until he is down. . Here is where I am: quote:1. Officer Liger: Made a joke vote, got jumped. Defending himself is nothing to me. Not posting anything else sucks. would vote if nothing changes.
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May 4, 2020 20:30
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A few things jumped in today, will post more to ight, sorry to friends and ill winds to my enemies.
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May 4, 2020 20:42
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CapnAndy posted:Here is what I think: assuming TT is scum and both Nad and Liger are town, TT sees Nad making a case on Liger, but it's a bad case. "I do not think this case will survive", thinks hypothetical Tom, "and that means one of my buddies may end up Going Away today. But if it crumbles, people will be annoyed with Nad. If I can start building a bandwagon against him now, when that happens everyone will vote Nad instead, and it'll still be a townie who gets removed, and if the case doesn't crumble after all, I get townie cred for having called it out early." Tom is one of the last people I'd vote right now. Do you have thoughts on anyone else? I went back over your posts sure I would say I wanted to vote for you but I don't any more, even if I owe you from all those need for speed losses.
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May 4, 2020 20:43
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Voodoofly posted:Tom is one of the last people I'd vote right now. Do you have thoughts on anyone else? I went back over your posts sure I would say I wanted to vote for you but I don't any more, even if I owe you from all those need for speed losses. Also my LYLO conduct is impeccable thank you very much.
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May 4, 2020 20:47
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Token Female posted:I don't think I agree with how Andy constructed the case against Tom. However I am leary of Tom's lord Nad votes is the flipping away from it when Lord Nad gave some resistance, then when people gave support going back on the vote. Though I suppose that I would think that Tom as scum would stick on the case even with resistance. Along with tom casing multiple people, I think I'm fine with Tom. Tokes, I say this with love: I don't think I will ever figure you out in mafia games. Do you not agree with Andy or do you think Andy's argument is scummy?
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May 4, 2020 20:48
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LordNad posted:Liger could have joke voted earlier than Varinn and it wouldn't have registered as scummy to me. Voodoofly posted:
I don't want this to get lost, as it's still the biggest issue I have with people who have been posting content.
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May 4, 2020 20:51
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Voodoofly posted:Tokes, I say this with love: I don't think I will ever figure you out in mafia games. I don't think his argument is scummy. I for the most part don't agree with it. I think Tom is more likely to be town at this point.
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May 4, 2020 20:51
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Token Female posted:I don't think his argument is scummy. I for the most part don't agree with it. I think Tom is more likely to be town at this point. Do you have anything other than a willingness to vote Nad at this point?
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May 4, 2020 20:53
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yuming posted:Hi DBD, how is it going I don't have any definite "this person is 100% scum" thoughts but I'll tell you what sort of reads I feel good on: I don't get MiR's/vivat's snipe on me which I've asked for an explanation a few times when I explained it to Tucker already prior to the snipe in the first place. Reminds me of the KCW/Miku "cases"/votes in HP (who both flipped scum) but I didn't want to be too OMGUS about it in that game. Come at me with good stuff or you'll get doubted. I think the ensuing Amni stuff was weird, including your vote on it. Basically anybody involved that inferred way too much doubt about a vig shooting felt weird to me. Didn't like Varinn's posts on it. Didn't like the votes on Amni because of it, especially because I think he was mis-characterized as a vig that was going to shoot and coast the rest of the game. Not seeing all of the Liger stuff either, I agree with most of his posts. ##vote Varinn Would also vote MiR, yuming, or anybody else who tried to make something big out of the vig shot being a "scum power/thing". Scum usually need something to sink their teeth into content wise on D1 and that was a perfect opportunity to sow confusion. I'm willing to give Amni the benefit of the doubt until some other stuff happens, or.. hell... if his posting was too scummy to ignore, I wouldn't even factor in the vig as something that should be "points" for his town. But he just seems like every other D1 vig that hit or missed.
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May 4, 2020 20:57
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Voodoofly posted:Do you have anything other than a willingness to vote Nad at this point? Sure! I'm suspicious of Hambeet. hambeet posted:It’s day one with a gazillion hours left and what I’d consider some pretty good day 1 content, and you’re suggesting we pursue the lurker’s? In addition to basically saying that we should ignore the lurkers (in the above post) there has been some posting but minimal analysis. It seems like hambeet is around, lurking and saying that we shouldn't target lurkers but one of the active posters instead. I don't like this. ##vote hambeet I would say I'm suspicious of (in addition to Lord Nad): Varinn: I don't agree with his reads, and I feel like he's more reserved than I remember him. This is meta and a weak read. jivjov: I find his vote on LIGER to be weak. I know that JJ is new to mafia, but I know that JJ has played a bunch of SA survivor games. It feels like JJ is very uncomfortable posting, and I read that as scummy.
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May 4, 2020 21:11
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Yuming's post about Hambeer A good callout of a low-content posted! The point that Hambeet argues we have a lot of good content, yet is not doing anything with that content, is indeed suspicious. Scummy read on Hambeet - good point Yuming! Capn Andy's post on Liger / LordNad Andy correctly puts the Liger posts in context and we agree on the read. Andy also point out the doubling / tripling down of LordNad, but we draw opposite conclusions from it. That's fine - I'm waffling on LordNad anyway, with leaning more towards scum on LordNad after re-reading and re-thinking the "admission" word usage in context (of admitting nothing). Capn Andy reads town. Kumba's lurker explanation is plausible I remember seeing something about the game starting Sunday too. But then this: kumba posted:so far, in summary: Bandwagon vote with no explanation (literally no explanation) then followed up with a "clarification" and I went "oh OK we're going to hear why they want to vote Liger" but nope. Very suspicious. The next point they make is: kumba posted:huh, town read on me out of nowhere, hedged "BUT..." Responding to Liger saying "but the blue cheese line has me worried" - implying that this is a hedge is super weird, and not nearly enough to imply the "I'm good with my vote" confidence and finality, it almost cuts of conversation on the reasons for the vote, which is convenient, because Kumba hasn't EXPLAINED the vote. Strong suspicion of Kumba, I'd vote them day 1 based on this. Khris Kruel posted:I haven't seen any defense of Liger other than "ah my gut feels". KK this is true that Liger hasn't been adding content, but I'd like to clarify that I think we should look at low content posters I am not advocating for a day 1 lurker launch. My defense of him is that I don't think scum would stick their necks out of behave the way he has for exactly the reason that he has drawn unwarranted attention. The fact that he's a poo poo poster is well taken and perfectly valid in advocating for his launch. Andy I will follow up on your post of me in a separate post!
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May 4, 2020 21:18
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why did you leave out my post between the two you quotedkumba posted:i should clarify that my read on varinn is based on one post, and my read on liger is based on more, so i feel stronger about that hence the vote that way
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May 4, 2020 21:28
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I have like 7 posts and two of the first three I quote liger directly, it's not difficult to determine why my vote is where it is
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May 4, 2020 21:29
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Andy on your vote, I will spare everyone the wall of text about the wall of text about the wall of text and try to distill your main ideas, let me know if I'm mis-characterizing anything. 1) I generally don't try to limit my posts to just one topic. In this case I said I was going to go back and review (in the post just above what you quoted) people who I think quoted Liger's joke "I'd need more" post opportunistically. Doing that brought me to VooDoo and LordNad, reviewing VooDoo gave me a townie vibe, reviewing LordNad gave me a scum vibe so I dove in. 2) I'm saying joke votes don't build momentum on the people they are voting. No one is coming into the thread and seeing Liger's obvious joke vote on Amni and going "ah yes good point let's launch them", the only time they'd vote is if they are putting another joke vote on top. These votes may as well not exist because they don't actually do anything. LordNad's case may have built momentum, but his was a serious case. Is this what you meant? I'm a little confused on what you mean by "things that didn't happen". 3) I guess you're agreeing with LordNad's general idea, I think it's absurd. I can't imagine any scum mindset where you stick your neck out as the third vote with a joke vote and expect that to push momentum then hop off and the momentum continues - no matter if it works or not you're going to be drawing a TON of attention. I can see scum doing this as some sort of impulsive shitposting, which I think is a valid point to make against Liger, but not as some grand day-1 scheme to advance an Amni launch. I think you are putting too much weight into the Amni votes themselves as well as the reasoning for them. A bandwagon or tidal wave DIDN'T form. Liger unvoted, then later Yuming did. Amni's case never had any real momentum, and Liger slapping a dumb joke vote on that was guaranteed to draw attention to himself had zero to negative chance of driving it forward. Doing it was not a rational scum move it was clearly dumb and inconsistent. I see no scum motivations behind it as Liger, as scum, would have nothing to gain. 4) OK you're getting into the "pulling of the vote" - this is where the opportunism comes in. No matter WHAT Liger does he gets heat, that's why it's such a stupid scum move. SO STUPID a scum move. If he keeps his vote "wtf why are you keeping your joke vote on a real launch candidate" if he pulls his vote "wtf why are you unvoting you're trying to have it both ways". That's what makes it so opportunistic - Liger stupidly put himself in a lose / lose situation, and those who are pointing to his actions as if to say "ah ha here is how scum would behave" are being disingenuous if they don't think the other choice Liger has wouldn't have been equally easy to pounce on him for. To me when Liger was told he was being an idiot, this was a real candidate, and he should unvote, he did, that's a town move, and goes against the "chaos scums shitposter" argument. 5) Your point about townies being put in a corner is well taken, but I don't think it's equal. When I'm scum I feel hunted and it's a 10x more stressful experience. My death also means much more on a % of team basis than town, making stakes higher. When I'm townie and I change my mind I'm happy to say so because I want to be right. When you're scum you don't actually have a mind to change since you're making poo poo up so when called on it the natural response is more to double down. Your perspective on this may vary, this has been mine, townies are just more open-minded, scum are scared of being seen as flipping around, and more likely to double down. 6) Your main complaint throughout the post appears to be saying that I am making a point that LordNad is simply "stating facts" which is suspicious while I do the same. I would argue I am not doing the same thing. If I were simply stating facts I would say "LordNad used the word 'admission' here when discussing Liger." If I did other people could read it, go "huh that is weird", and then start wondering themselves, maybe moving them closer to LordNad, but I wouldn't be on the hook for pushing it - I was just stating facts. That was the first thing that caught my eye about LordNad, and it's surely possible I applied it too widely when it was really just that first post, but I think the point remains fair and I'd argue my posts are not drive-by things like "Liger made this post then made this post, voted, with 12 minutes in between" but actually try to create narrative, ascribe motives, and put these facts into a broader context with a designed persuasive argument in mind. I personally think they do but I'll accept the town's judgement if Andy is right and I'm being hypocritical on it. CapnAndy posted:No, I think the real voter of opportunity today is the guy who saw someone trying to build a silly case, recognized that he was going to draw blowback for it, and decided to see if he could get a bandwagon rolling in that direction instead. This is ultimately a good sign, though! I think we are fundamentally in agreement about the basic principles of my argument, which is encouraging bandwagons on votes of opportunity is bad - we just disagree on who has been doing that. LordNad believes Liger was doing it on Amni, I think LordNad was doing it on Liger, and you think I was doing it on LordNad, and if you continue this thread someone else could argue that you're doing it to me (I don't think you are, for the record, and would argue with anyone who did). The question is which of these is the true vote of opportunity. I say LordNad, for the reasons I've talked about, and you say me. I understand LordNad already had two votes on him when I voted him, but one was a joke and the other was a simple "gut" vote, I don't think that's enough to warrant an opportunistic vote to push a bandwagon as scum. Liger, on the other hand, had hung himself out to try, and was in my mind the perfect candidate to jump on because it's so low-risk.
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May 4, 2020 21:45
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kumba posted:I have like 7 posts and two of the first three I quote liger directly, it's not difficult to determine why my vote is where it is drat you're right - I missed the post where you 100% agree with voodoo, the other post you mention is where you just say your vote is based on "more". The "more" is unclear though as you just agree with a voodoofly post and disagree with a point Liger was making on a townread, ther'es not a lot of "more" there. Either way I did miss the post where you agree with voodoo so credit there, mea culpa, and downgrade my suspicion.
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May 4, 2020 21:50
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What’s a survivor game? I’ve completely ignored jibjuv as I’ll be damned if I’m voting a new player day 1 but sounds like he is maybe not a new player?
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May 4, 2020 21:57
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New player as in new to the general community.
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May 4, 2020 21:58
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Voodoofly posted:What’s a survivor game? I’ve completely ignored jibjuv as I’ll be damned if I’m voting a new player day 1 but sounds like he is maybe not a new player? Not mafia survivor, but Survivor the game, played on something awful.
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May 4, 2020 21:59
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kumba posted:I have like 7 posts and two of the first three I quote liger directly, it's not difficult to determine why my vote is where it is I’m asking. You quote my vote but I’ve already said that vote was based on total miscomprehension.
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May 4, 2020 22:00
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Tom Tucker posted:I will spare everyone the wall of text about the wall of text about the wall of text LIAR!!
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May 4, 2020 22:00
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Sandwolf posted:LIAR!! I meant I wasn't going to interleave quotes X-COM 2: Chimaera Squad style.
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May 4, 2020 22:04
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Voodoofly posted:What’s a survivor game? I’ve completely ignored jibjuv as I’ll be damned if I’m voting a new player day 1 but sounds like he is maybe not a new player? Yeah I've played forums Survivor a few times now, but mafia's a completely different beast - no challenges or immunity idols or anything. I'm a bit uncomfortable posting mostly becuase I'm literally still trying to match names to avatars and such, and get everyone sorted out as individuals. I'm used to a game where I only am directing interacting with like...8 or so people at the start rather than over 20.
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May 4, 2020 22:05
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