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The Golux posted:But guys, it gets sky attack, that's like, the most powerful bird move! </sarcasm> The sad thing is gen 1 Sky Attack is probably the one time a 2-turn move is close to worth it. Here is a list of flying type attacks in gen 1: Wing Attack: 35 BP Peck: 35 BP Fly: 70 BP (2 turns) Drill Peck: 80 BP Sky Attack: 140 BP (2 turns) As you can see this is damning with faint praise It actually sees use in Stadium speed runs since the rental Moltres has it, though I dunno if anything bothered with it in competitive with all the rock types.
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May 4, 2020 16:07
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Eh. Fly also gets you out of danger for a turn, so it's worth it in some circumstances. Not that flying is a beacon of powerhouse moves. Also...YEESH that level up moveset for Moltres. Holy hell that's bad. But at least Moltres eventually becomes usable in later gens...unlike FLAREON who just...constantly gets poo poo on by GF every gen after this one and never has it's stats redistributed.
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May 4, 2020 16:46
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The problem with any two-turn move (where the attack is on the second turn) in competitive, is that competitive Pokemon is a game of prediction, and any two-turn move tells your opponent exactly what you're going to be doing next turn, so they'll almost always be able to switch to something that stuffs the attack. So unless you build your strategy around a specific move, or know that your opponent, for example, doesn't have anything that resists Flying, nine times out of ten moves like Fly just make you waste your turn. (Of course, none of this applies to moves with a cooldown - depending on the move those can ABSOLUTELY be worth it)
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May 4, 2020 16:58
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Kemix posted:Eh. Fly also gets you out of danger for a turn, so it's worth it in some circumstances. Not that flying is a beacon of powerhouse moves. Also...YEESH that level up moveset for Moltres. Holy hell that's bad. But at least Moltres eventually becomes usable in later gens...unlike FLAREON who just...constantly gets poo poo on by GF every gen after this one and never has it's stats redistributed. I mean no pokemon has had its stats redistributed beyond a 10-point buff or nerf, to my knowledge.
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May 4, 2020 17:49
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Flareon got Flare Blitz in Gen 6 so at this point its problem is its low speed (65 base is bad even if speed tiers capped at 90) which will probably never be addressed. Ideally one day they add a fire priority move and its not a punch so Flareon can get it. Iut also has coverage issues due to being an eeveelution but at least it gets Super Power. Even Leafeon doesnt get Super Power! Its issues really are more intrinsic to it than just the age-old stand by of "give it flare blitz"
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May 4, 2020 18:26
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Kemix posted:Eh. Fly also gets you out of danger for a turn, so it's worth it in some circumstances. This isn't really a thing, though. With Fly, both you and your opponent do nothing for one turn, and you both do something for one turn. It's the same as if you both did something for one turn anyway, with the exception that if your opponent wants to do something that doesn't interact with you (buff, use an item, switch) then they get a free turn when you didn't. Unless you have something explicitly make use of that extra turn of nothing, then "being out of danger for a turn" is less than useless. And, uhh, let's just say that as far as two move combos go, Dig/Fly + Toxic isn't exactly the most dangerous thing to put out there.
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May 4, 2020 19:16
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Rosalie_A posted:And, uhh, let's just say that as far as two move combos go, Dig/Fly + Toxic isn't exactly the most dangerous thing to put out there.
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May 4, 2020 20:04
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I never got the hate fly gets. I understand how a human can stomp all over it, but people trash talk it to the point where they act like it's even bad against the computer. The ai almost never takes advantage of the stall turn making it effectively a slightly weaker drill peck in stadium.
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May 4, 2020 20:12
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FoolyCharged posted:
Fly effectively has the same power as Peck and Wing Attack and is less than half the damage of Drill Peck so this is only true if you only look at the number the game gives you, which is spread out over two turns that you could've used two Drill Pecks in. Only move in Gen 1 that comes close to Drill Peck is Sky Attack. Allosauroidea fucked around with this message at 19:11 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 19:06
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Hoo boy do I need to finish the next update.
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May 5, 2020 19:20
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Allosauroidea posted:Fly effectively has the same power as Peck and Wing Attack and is less than half the damage of Drill Peck so this is only true if you only look at the number the game gives you, which is spread out over two turns that you could've used two Drill Pecks in. Only move in Gen 1 that comes close to Drill Peck is Sky Attack. If the opponent isn't reacting smartly to the fly turn than damage per turn is irrelevant, the 'flew up high' turn may as well have not even happened. It does get hit hard by status effects.
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May 5, 2020 19:45
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Some Goon posted:If the opponent isn't reacting smartly to the fly turn than damage per turn is irrelevant, the 'flew up high' turn may as well have not even happened. It does get hit hard by status effects. And by that metric Dig in Gen 1 is amazing because it had 100 Base Power, the same as Earthquake, before it was nerfed to 60 in Gen 2+.
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May 5, 2020 20:00
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gourdcaptain posted:And by that metric Dig in Gen 1 is amazing because it had 100 Base Power, the same as Earthquake, before it was nerfed to 60 in Gen 2+.
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May 5, 2020 20:15
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PMush Perfect posted:The only time that first turn matters is that, in Gen 2 and 3, Earthquake actually does double damage to something that's mid-Dig. Which is hilarious, because they already nerfed it to 60 BP in those same gens. Ah, Earthquake. Is there anything it can't do??? (besides deal with flying types or mons with levitate)
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May 5, 2020 20:42
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NAME REDACTED posted:Ah, Earthquake. Is there anything it can't do??? One of my favorite realizations of the series is that anything that flies is completely immune to being hit with bones
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May 5, 2020 21:11
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Route 20: What's Next? This was actually supposed to be part of the previous update, but I didn't want to deal with it, and the next one is going to be long enough that I don't want to cram this onto the front of it, either.   I'm not going to travel to Cinnabar by the intended way. Instead, I fly back to Pallet Town, and use a method that I actually did my very first time playing Red and Blue. Back then, I did it because I couldn't get through Seafoam. Now I just do it because I don't want to.   Also, because there's grass just south of Pallet that can't be reached except by surfing. Tangela  Viability: 1.5/5 Tangela is an interesting Pokemon. Pure Grass type, with 65/115/100 defenses, it seems like it should be pretty solid. ...well, no, it isn't. Tangela has a problem, and that problem is its moveset. Defensively, it's got some great options. Sleep Powder, Growth to boost its Special both offensively and defensively, a Wrap-like in Bind, and... that's it. It doesn't even learn Vine Whip until Yellow. It's a defensive Pokemon with no offensive presence and no reliable sources of healing outside of Rest and the 40 BP Mega Drain, both via TM. Even Leech Seed would pair reasonably with Bind. What keeps Tangela out of a 1 isn't actually much more than trivia. After a Growth, Tangela has a decent Solarbeam in RBY, but that's at least two turns of setup, counting Solarbeam's charging turn. If you can pull it off, it's going to do a decent amount of damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Every other Grass type can deal more damage in the same amount of time, but if you really, really want to make this tangly boy work, a team with lots of paralysis support might be able to buy you enough time to get its combo off once. I still like it a lot, as you might be able to tell from all these words, but it is, sadly, the worst fully-evolved Grass type in RBY.    Dodging a few trainers I don't want to deal with (and lots more Tentacool), I finally end up at our goal.   And, after using the Pokemon Center, I immediately fly away to Fuschia again. You remember how I never actually got myself a Tauros? It's about time we fixed that, through use of the lovely Cinnabar Surf Glitch.   How it works is actually pretty simple. The easternmost edge of Cinnabar has the unique trait of being able to generate encounters, but it doesn't have any data for what encounters to use. So, instead, it uses whatever was loaded last. Most of the time, this would be the water you just surfed through, or maybe the Mansion encounters, but you can use the encounter data from anywhere. (Side note, the Old Man/Missingno glitch works because the game temporarily stores your name in the encounter data while changing it to OLD MAN because there's nowhere else to put it, and never clears the data. So, by flying straight to Cinnabar and swimming along the coast, Red and Blue will happily just read what's in there, even as it corrupts the encounter and fucks with your items. There was neither time nor room for thorough error-checking in the Red and Blue cartridge.)   The Safari Zone is technically classified as indoors, so you can't fly out, but if you get the data from the zone you want, and then Dig out, you can fly to Cinnabar and use the coast to pull from whatever table you want. By using the data from the westernmost area, you have a 4% chance of getting a Tauros. That's still a 1/25 chance, but at least you can-  ...cry.    And then spend another 20 minutes finding another one. At least that didn't happen while I was actually in the Safari Zone or I might have given up on finding a legitimate one at all.    We've got a couple other Pokemon we can get before we're ready to head into the Mansion to move on with progress. Pulling DUX out of retirement, I fly all the way back to Pewter, and pick up the Old Amber.    In Cinnabar, we can get our fossils revived by giving them to a scientist who speaks in what might be slightly racist broken English, then riding our bike around out front for a while.   Kabuto we already talked about, but what about Aerodactyl? Aerodactyl  Viability: 2/5 Aerodactyl is almost the exact same story as Tangela, and a lot of other RBY Pokemon: Great stats, and nothing to do with them. 105 Attack and 130 Speed! Rock/Flying is a fairly solid offensive typing, except Aerodactyl doesn't learn any Rock moves. Not by TM, not by anything. And unlike Tangela, its 80/65/60 defenses and terrible defensive typing makes Sky Attack something of a pipe dream. 130 Speed, and the associated crit rate, is nothing to sneeze at, and Fly isn't actually bad in PvE, and with a 105 Attack, that really does hurt, but 99 times out of 100, I'd rather just use Dodrio, who is significantly slower, but has a slightly higher Attack, comparably poor defenses, and gets STAB on its Normal moves. Aerodactyl does get points for cool factor, though.    There are some NPCs who want to trade here. You can get a Seel for your Ponyta, a Tangela for your Venonat, or an Electrode for your Raichu. None of the Pokemon you can get are particularly excellent or hard to find, but the ability to have a Level 3 Electrode lets you get up to some Shenangians, if you want to.  TM35, which we also get here, is Metronome! It's an iconic move, also great for Shenanigans, and which can be learned by a surprisingly-large pool of Pokemon, but unless I decide I want to get up to something really stupid, it's going into the PC and not coming out.  Speaking of going into the PC and not coming out, how about that Pokemon Mansion! Next Time on Multi-Track Battling: ♫ Look at my horse! ♫ Complete Available Roster 5.0:       4.5:        4.0:        3.5:          3.0:            2.5:    2.0:      1.5:    1.0:       Other: 
girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Sep 12, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 21:36
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"Have you a fossil for me?" is, in fact, correct English, if a little snooty-sounding.  Also the Missingno glitch can be performed on the Seafoam Islands as well as Cinnabar, but it's pretty obvious why you'd prefer Cinnabar, given your feelings about Seafoam.
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May 5, 2020 22:14
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EclecticTastes posted:Also the Missingno glitch can be performed on the Seafoam Islands as well as Cinnabar, but it's pretty obvious why you'd prefer Cinnabar, given your feelings about Seafoam.
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May 5, 2020 22:16
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I knew Lickitung didn't get Lick but man I forgot Tangela, the walking bundle of vines, did not get Vine Whip until Yellow. Poor thing. ...Not that Vine Whip is especially good, mind, but, still. Next Time: Who Wouldn't?
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May 5, 2020 22:21
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I'm a little confused about how the Solarbeam thing works. Don't Venusaur and Victreebel have the same special as Tangela and Vileplume and also get Growth? Wouldn't they be as strong? Also speaking of Growth, Vileplume doesn't. So I'm clearly missing something because I'm stumped. pls help
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May 5, 2020 22:50
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Allosauroidea posted:I'm a little confused about how the Solarbeam thing works.
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May 5, 2020 22:55
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PMush Perfect posted:Can it really? Huh. I'd figure there's no easy way to get there without overwriting the info while surfing over. There's no grass anywhere in Fuschia City or Route 19. The "eastward-facing shoreline" tiles try to generate land encounters, so as long as you avoid any location with tall grass and/or caves, you're good to go. In fact, the oldest version of the glitch specified Seafoam Islands before Cinnabar, and that's the form of it that made the rounds of my fourth-grade class.
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May 6, 2020 00:28
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EclecticTastes posted:There's no grass anywhere in Fuschia City or Route 19. The "eastward-facing shoreline" tiles try to generate land encounters, so as long as you avoid any location with tall grass and/or caves, you're good to go. In fact, the oldest version of the glitch specified Seafoam Islands before Cinnabar, and that's the form of it that made the rounds of my fourth-grade class.
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May 6, 2020 00:30
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Did you name your Tangela Terry? And did you trade him for a Growlithe with that rear end in a top hat Kevin Punt who deserves to be in jail?
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May 6, 2020 02:24
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This sounds like real “my uncle worked at Nintendo” stuff but I swear I found the seafoam shoreline encounter trick as a kid by accident. I was running into Dittos and stuff from that route outside of Fuchsia and had no idea why, I wouldn’t figure out how to really mess with it until much later.
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May 6, 2020 03:08
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bunnyofdoom posted:Did you name your Tangela Terry? And did you trade him for a Growlithe with that rear end in a top hat Kevin Punt who deserves to be in jail?
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May 6, 2020 03:16
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Panic Restaurant posted:This sounds like real “my uncle worked at Nintendo” stuff but I swear I found the seafoam shoreline encounter trick as a kid by accident. I was running into Dittos and stuff from that route outside of Fuchsia and had no idea why, I wouldn’t figure out how to really mess with it until much later. Nah it's believable. I mean that's how the glitch had to be discovered in the first place before anyone could spread it around, some random shmuck stumbles into it.
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May 6, 2020 04:09
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Panic Restaurant posted:This sounds like real “my uncle worked at Nintendo” stuff but I swear I found the seafoam shoreline encounter trick as a kid by accident. I was running into Dittos and stuff from that route outside of Fuchsia and had no idea why, I wouldn’t figure out how to really mess with it until much later. It's not outside the realm of possibility. All you need to do is roll an encounter when you move to the shoreline, which is every bit as likely as rolling an encounter anywhere else, I imagine; even if you had to move a bit first all you'd need to do is decide "eh, I want to get off here" or some other random little kid logic and boom, encounter. Then you decide, hey, I want to see what can be caught here, and...yeah. There's a reason the Missingno. trick is two decades old but other glitches could go unseen for years (Normal types being immune to Body Slam paralysis is, I think, a relatively recent discovery by comparison): it's hilariously easy to trigger accidentally and very deterministic.
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May 6, 2020 04:10
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Panic Restaurant posted:This sounds like real “my uncle worked at Nintendo” stuff but I swear I found the seafoam shoreline encounter trick as a kid by accident. I was running into Dittos and stuff from that route outside of Fuchsia and had no idea why, I wouldn’t figure out how to really mess with it until much later. It's absolutely believable. I don't think anyone thought "Hmmmmm, what would happen if I went to the Safari Zone, immediately left, and Surfed up and down the east coast of Cinnabar." That's how these things get discovered. People stumble upon them. I swear up and down that I got rid of the Snapjaw in Slime Climb from Donkey Kong Country 2 once, but I've never been able to recreate it
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May 6, 2020 04:32
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It makes a lot of sense for a glitch like that to be stumbled on accidentally. Somebody's playing normally, and the RNG just happens to hit the "time for a wild Pokemon" mark just as they're hitting the shoreline at Seafoam, and suddenly they're up against, like, a Doduo or a Chansey on a route that's nothing but Tentacool. Stands to reason that just about anyone would stop for a moment and try to figure out what the hell just happened. Like, the actual Missingno glitch (requiring you to go through the catching tutorial) is a lot less likely to be found accidentally, but anyone with knowledge of programming, even back then, could have intuited what was going on regarding the encounter tables, and while not necessarily guessing the exact nature of the Old Man Glitch (because putting your name in the encounter table is fuckin' wild), they might have had the idea that, since the tutorial is an "encounter" of sorts, that it might do something unusual if it was the last encounter you had.
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May 6, 2020 04:53
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I accidentally found the Seafoam glitch back when I was a child. And then shared it with my friends. Then I realized Cinnabar had a similar strip of land and it was much easier to get to. I'm also certain I got the Missingno glitch by messing with the in game trades on Cinnabar. I think it was starting the Raichu one and then backing out again? I remember it being a huge pain to set up and only later learning about talking to the old man.
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May 6, 2020 05:44
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Yeah, even the Missingno variant of the glitch is so easy to stumble upon (and, once you know how, set up) that literal seven-year-olds could do it AND teach all their friends (and be very confused that the one friend with Yellow couldn't get it to work... (it's me I was the friend  )).For reference, I think the next really well-known gen 1 glitch (the Trainer-Fly or Mew glitch) was confirmed sometime during gen 3. It took a while to really crack the lid open on the strangeness of gen 1 games.
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May 6, 2020 11:28
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PMush Perfect posted:I would die for BDG. Then tangela should at least get a bonus point in the ranking.
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May 6, 2020 15:18
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bunnyofdoom posted:Then tangela should at least get a bonus point in the ranking.  Edit: Let's have some comparisons here. +1 Tangela Solar Beam vs. Tauros: 243-286 (68.8 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (3HKO, counting Growth and charging.) +1 Vileplume Petal Dance vs. Tauros: 142-168 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO (Likely 4HKO, counting Growth, and with no crits) Venusaur/Victreebel Razor Leaf vs. Tauros on a critical hit: 146-172 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- 10.6% chance to 2HKO (Likely 3HKO) That big chunk of damage seems really impressive, until you compare it side-by-side with the time investment for other, simpler moves. It's not a niche, it's an excuse to not dumpster the poor little cutie. I would have been so much kinder to Tangela if it learned Recover or Leech Seed or something to make its decent bulk worthwhile. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 17:17 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 17:09
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Yeah that's fair
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May 6, 2020 17:26
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Honestly, combined with its stats and typing, Leech Seed (+ Bind & Stun Spore) would be enough to make it an absolutely hilarious and fairly effective gimmick Pokemon, and I'd probably give it an ARGH/5, same as Dragonite.
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May 6, 2020 17:34
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...the creature made of vines can't use Vine Whip
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May 6, 2020 17:51
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:...the creature made of vines can't use Vine Whip Lickitung doesn't learn Lick. This was not fixed until Gen II.
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May 6, 2020 18:07
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Yes but lick is absolute garbage in gen 1 with only 20 bpl. It's only use is as the sole ghost not night shade move and has a chance to paralyze. Gen 1 was a Trainwreck of wasted and empty move pools.
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May 6, 2020 18:28
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Kikas posted:Lickitung doesn't learn Lick. I thought it was fixed in yellow?
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May 6, 2020 18:53
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