Voodoofly posted:

I’m asking. You quote my vote but I’ve already said that vote was based on total miscomprehension.

Tom Tucker posted:

3) I guess you're agreeing with LordNad's general idea

Amnistar posted:

I'm going to say, based solely on D1 post count, that Liger and Voodoo are town.

LordNad posted:

You joke voted a guy with 2 serious votes and then unvoted when called out on it.

Seems to me you're trying to build momentum in the guise of "it's a joke vote".

##vote Officer Liger

LordNad posted:

I'm voting because what you did was scummy and your explanation afterwards doesn't feel right. Where did I agree with your prior points of view?

LordNad posted:

So you admit you voted for a guy with 2 serious votes who you thought was town

LordNad posted:

You deliberately dropped the 3rd vote for someone you thought was town as a joke. Get lynched

CapnAndy posted:

I just can't see scum watching Liger make an obvious jokevote on D1 and thinking "aha, here is my prey for the day, I can twist anything he does after this to look scummy".

Token Female posted:

Are these votes (and Yuming's) bad because they are voting for Amnistar because you think Amnistar is town? Or because you don't like how they frame their votes?

Voodoofly posted:

I’m going to go thru the thread this morning after I get a project done but let’s be clear we should absolutely lynch a lurker on day 1 without something really persuasive otherwise.

Tom Tucker posted:

It's day one with a gazillion hours left and I'm saying paying attention to people who are sitting on the sidelines after they've had a few days to weigh in is a good idea, yes!

Deadbeat Dad posted:

##vote Varinn

Would also vote MiR, yuming, or anybody else who tried to make something big out of the vig shot being a "scum power/thing". Scum usually need something to sink their teeth into content wise on D1 and that was a perfect opportunity to sow confusion. I'm willing to give Amni the benefit of the doubt until some other stuff happens, or.. hell... if his posting was too scummy to ignore, I wouldn't even factor in the vig as something that should be "points" for his town. But he just seems like every other D1 vig that hit or missed.

zzyzx posted:

I think I agree with this one too. Varinn came out of the gate strong, voted Amni, criticized people for sitting on the sidelines, and then just kind of vanished into a puff of smoke.

Sandwolf posted:

Let’s just lunch merk before he has a chance to come back and respond

Voodoofly posted:

Do you have anything better? You have a lot of "these are bad" but nothing else.

zzyzx posted:

Now let's get some votes of opportunity on the Liger voters of opportunity who didn't like the Amni votes of opportunity.

zzyzx posted:

Of course it contradicts what you've said so far; I think it's a made-up reason. If Steak had flipped scum, you absolutely would not have followed up with, "I just did it because it was funny, I didn't have any scum read on him." (You'd be getting familiar with the smug emojis instead.) That only came after yuming voted you.

Varinn asks why a townie would try to make excuses like that, and the answer is that they know they did something dumb.

zzyzx posted:

I think that you're town, because day-vigs (and certainly day-vigs who shoot other townies on d1) usually are. I also think backpedaling into, "that's what I meant to do all along" after you get called out is an understandable reaction.

That said, if you get a hit on Steak, we all congratulate you while you explain what a great gut read it was; if you miss, we get to make fun of you. You're not upholding your end of the social contract here.

(And you followed it up with a vote on me, so you're batting zero so far. Do better.)

zzyzx posted:

I've read this a few times and I'm still not sure what to make of it.

The vig should be looked at if he coasts and doesn't do much else. However, by voting for Amni, Varinn has made Amni aware of this, and it gives Amni "room" to participate in future game days and claim that he's not coasting. I think you're criticizing Varinn's case for this.

Wouldn't we all expect Amni to do that anyway?

zzyzx posted:

The fact that it was a THIRD VOTE isn't necessarily the point. Assuming for the sake of argument that it's a joke, queuing up your joke vote with "I'd join this but I want to see more evidence first" is weird. And then waiting until other people have made serious votes and plonking down your joke vote right after is also weird.

Take this post from Voodoo:

quote:

Voodoofly posted:

On an unrelated note, I’m now fine voting amni day 1 just so I don’t have to see that avatar anymore.

I think that's fine on its own. But imagine if he put "But I want to see more before I vote." at the end of it, and then I made a long case where I vote Amni after changing my mind and definitively proving that he's scum, and then Voodoo immediately signs on once I'm done. We'd yell at him for that. (I certainly would.)

zzyzx posted:

quote:

Voodoofly posted:

So basically you are indifferent to whether it's a joke or no

That's certainly the narrative now that he's been called on it, but I don't think it's obvious that it was at the time. Regardless, the sequence of it sounds off in my head.

zzyzx posted:

By now merk has normally started yelling and screaming until he gets his way, but so far it's just a couple of crappy drive-by votes where merk says "fake" and runs off.

quote:

merk posted:

I won a Voodoofly Wifoa big game after Dhaes, my scum buddy, shot a person on day 1. I bussed him immediately and rode that to a win. A scum dayvig blowing someone away day 1 is definitely legitimate. That said, a scum dayvig shooting Steak, a usual town negative, is not that realistic.

My issue with the little stuff I’ve read is people discounting a scum day vig shooting d1 generally without mining into the context of who he shot at all. KK, in particular, has the fakest read. ##vote KK


merk posted:

I'm down with this. The Amnistar vig is probably the best thing to find fake content so far today, and this zzyzx thing is probably the best fake content to find.

##vote zzyzx

Would also vote KK.

Interesting note about the first one: the game merk refers to is WIFOA IV, which doesn't show up in the votefinder tally because it's too old. Like merk says, it's an example (albeit an old one) of a scum using a day-vig early on. Two problems with this:

1) WIFOA is a fundamentally different setup in which players choose their roles at the outset, which gives the scum an opportunity at a day-vig. The argument here is that it's unlikely that a mod assigns a scum player a day-vig because it creates balance issues - saying "it happened in a WIFOA game" isn't a response to that.

2) merk goes on to argue that Amni is likely town because he shot Steak, a "usual town negative", and scum probably wouldn't do that. In the same game he quoted that's exactly what his teammate did - Dhaes shot winvirus, who (if I recall right) might charitably be described as a usual town negative.

I think merk, as town, is detail-oriented enough to consider both of these things before posting (or, if he's too busy, to wait until he has time before doing it). Would vote.

Token Female posted:

Sure!

I'm suspicious of Hambeet.


In addition to basically saying that we should ignore the lurkers (in the above post) there has been some posting but minimal analysis. It seems like hambeet is around, lurking and saying that we shouldn't target lurkers but one of the active posters instead. I don't like this. ##vote hambeet

Tom Tucker posted:

Yuming's post about Hambeer

A good callout of a low-content posted! The point that Hambeet argues we have a lot of good content, yet is not doing anything with that content, is indeed suspicious. Scummy read on Hambeet - good point Yuming!

Capn Andy's post on Liger / LordNad

Andy correctly puts the Liger posts in context and we agree on the read. Andy also point out the doubling / tripling down of LordNad, but we draw opposite conclusions from it. That's fine - I'm waffling on LordNad anyway, with leaning more towards scum on LordNad after re-reading and re-thinking the "admission" word usage in context (of admitting nothing). Capn Andy reads town.

Kumba's lurker explanation is plausible I remember seeing something about the game starting Sunday too. But then this:


Bandwagon vote with no explanation (literally no explanation) then followed up with a "clarification" and I went "oh OK we're going to hear why they want to vote Liger" but nope. Very suspicious. The next point they make is:


Responding to Liger saying "but the blue cheese line has me worried" - implying that this is a hedge is super weird, and not nearly enough to imply the "I'm good with my vote" confidence and finality, it almost cuts of conversation on the reasons for the vote, which is convenient, because Kumba hasn't EXPLAINED the vote. Strong suspicion of Kumba, I'd vote them day 1 based on this.


KK this is true that Liger hasn't been adding content, but I'd like to clarify that I think we should look at low content posters I am not advocating for a day 1 lurker launch. My defense of him is that I don't think scum would stick their necks out of behave the way he has for exactly the reason that he has drawn unwarranted attention. The fact that he's a poo poo poster is well taken and perfectly valid in advocating for his launch.

Andy I will follow up on your post of me in a separate post!

Tom Tucker posted:

I meant I wasn't going to interleave quotes X-COM 2: Chimaera Squad style.

hambeet posted:

okay, please give me the pro argument for pursuing lurkers in a game with a lurker mechanic.

how does it help determine player intent when the argument is going to basically be "they didn't post enough" ?

Sandwolf posted:

Let’s just lunch merk before he has a chance to come back and respond

CapnAndy posted:

They're detriments to the town and we shouldn't need the mods to do our job for us. Plus, the mods are incentivized to set an extremely lax standard for "lurking" because modkills are disruptive to the game. We can take out anyone we want for whatever reasons seem good to us.

hambeet posted:

*loading screen with APC*

Tom Tucker posted:

Really want to hear back from Kumba now that Voodoo has reminded me that her entire basis for her vote on Liger was agreeing with a vote that was objectively and easily noticeable as wrong.

hambeet posted:

*looks up on head to see big novelty hat with "Mafia Dad" written on it*

hambeet posted:

how does it give us data for the next day?

how does it actually help the game?

CapnAndy posted:

Any flip is data, and it helps because we remove, at worst, a townie who wasn't helping the dang town. At best we get a scum, and trying to fade into the background is a prime scum strategy.

OFFICER LIGER posted:

hambeet posted:

firstly, i like that both yuming and tom tucker knee jerk onto me after i've commented negatively on their posts. really normal town play. as is the cheer leading of yumings post. hmmmmmm.

is it a coincidence that the next person tom tucked attacks is someone else who has raised an odd feeling about yuming's posting?

hmmmmmm

hambeet posted:

are they not bad? engage with me about them then.

Deadbeat Dad posted:

makes you think

kumba posted:

i read 340 posts in about 15 minutes and have no idea what you're talking about

Tom Tucker posted:

Here's who I was thinking - Voodoo go read it back in context.

I don't think Voodoo is scum here he straight up admits he's skimming.

LordNad here is really leaning in:


This doesn't seem genuine to me, where have joke votes ever built momentum? If you believe this what is Liger's best-case scenario, that he sticks his neck out as the third vote which causes a tidal wave of momentum, but has his cake and eats it too by making it a joke vote? What does he do when the tidal wave comes in, unvote his joke vote? Leave it on and look scummy as hell? There's no "good" scenario here there's no reason for him to be pushing a 2-vote candidate with a joke vote expecting results and assigning that motivation to him seems absurd. Early in day 1 joke-voting someone who has two votes, who cares?

It's the momentum onto HIM that stands out to me. LordNad had already raised my hackles with this post:


Where I accused him of basically contributing to a discussion (which I found unproductive), keeping it going, while adding nothing of real value. I think the Liger vote is partially in response to being called on that, but his vote is also mere statements of fact. My gut tells me LordNad is avoiding stating opinions of things and relying on facts to explain themselves because facts don't lie, even if they don't say what his vote implies they do.

His actual vote looks to split the difference - stating facts, then stating his "opinion" that this is an attempt to build momentum, which I believe is a flawed conclusion. LordNad gets pushed back and I feel like backed into it he feels the need to double down.


Continued engagement but the "explanation afterwards doesn't feel right" - what about it doesn't feel right? LordNad seems to hold the views that it was a joke vote and was some sort of scheme to build momentum simultaneously. I think these two ideas are, in most cases I can think of, exclusionary.


This is what really annoys me though. Again LordNad is simply stating facts, but framing it as if it is an "admission". This framing is very suspicious to me - Liger has already said it was a joke vote, we know the other two votes are serious ones, Liger has stated he feels Amni was town, none of these facts are in contention. Yet here we have LordNad presenting them as if it is some sort of "admission". It feeds into LordNad's "bring up facts to continue conversations but add little" and what I feel is a hard-to-draw conclusion based on those facts which he does and then presents as a done deal or some "admission" of Liger's.


Here LordNad gets a little bit out of the hole by trying to make an argument here and ascribe motive, which is good, but the argument itself seems silly compared to the wording he's used before (mostly "admission"). Liger is joking about Amni's avatar and overall being worthless but doesn't actually vote Amni. LordNad asks "why not just vote" which is a question I still don't understand. Why do anything when you're joking around? If your point is that he's scummy for still joke-voting when people are getting serious that's fine, but it's not LordNad's point, he's saying that Liger planted this idea then waited 12 minutes to do the actual vote because he wanted a third vote for more momentum and was taking advantage of the opportunity which is, to me, absurd. The Machiavellian picture that unfolds of scum, seeing 1 vote on Amni, and tenting their fingers and saying "ah yes! I will vote for Amni as a JOKE VOTE to push the lunch! But I can't just do it... I must set up my joke vote, which is actually a real vote to push the lunch, but making a FIRST post wherein I say I might vote him, then when the second vote happens, I sweep in with my third vote, and the lunch will be on autopilot from there! Now to play the waiting game..." it's nonsense. LordNad is pushing it hard and vaccilating between stating facts "you voted for someone you thought was town" which are not in disagreement with absurd doubling-down that this is somehow scummy (it ain't).

The real voter of opportunity today is not Liger it is LordNad.

##vote LordNad

jivjov posted:

Doing some reading back, and yeah...Liger building momentum on someone like that seems a bit sus....tbh I don't know you well enough to definitely trust my own reads, but when they are already lining up with the majority...

##vote OFFICER LIGER