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I'm pretty sure that Bolivia has freer and fairer elections than, say, the US, but since the liberal conception of democracy is fundamentally a Herrenvolk one it's only third-world countries that get liberals hooting and hollering in support of fascist coups for allegedly holding imperfect elections whereas obvious mass voter suppression and blatantly undemocratic election systems in the imperial core are handwaved away as just part of the political game.
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May 5, 2020 09:26
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Cerebral Bore posted:I'm pretty sure that Bolivia has freer and fairer elections than, say, the US, but since the liberal conception of democracy is fundamentally a Herrenvolk one it's only third-world countries that get liberals hooting and hollering in support of fascist coups for allegedly holding imperfect elections whereas obvious mass voter suppression and blatantly undemocratic election systems in the imperial core are handwaved away as just part of the political game. Man. You guys really need to leave America and see what the rest of the world is like sometime. This is such a bizarre entitled take.
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May 5, 2020 10:25
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there are serious, serious issues with american democracy to the point where it's not an entirely unreasonable comparison to make, which is *insane* considering it's the actual richest country in the world and has comparatively excellent infrastructure like, just the specific point about the electronic voting systems being extremely vulnerable is also the case in america (even if the centralised nature of bolivia's security breach has not been identified in the USA), though direct tampering with ballots is probably much rarer
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May 5, 2020 10:33
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V. Illych L. posted:there are serious, serious issues with american democracy to the point where it's not an entirely unreasonable comparison to make, which is *insane* considering it's the actual richest country in the world and has comparatively excellent infrastructure No, it is an entirely unreasonable comparison to make that would only come from someone who legitimately thinks their comfy first-world lifestyle and their not-family-approved hard-left views is in any way comparable to the persecution and corruption someone who was actually born in a third-world unstable democracy has to experience. I'm not saying America is a perfect democracy, far from it, but you're aware there's places in Latin America where being a political dissident means that you may likely be kidnapped and killed, along with your family, right? Like, can we at the very least agree that there's much worse democracies than America? By first-world standards, sure, America is a very flawed democracy with an old system that fails to represent the majority of Americans. But compared to the majority of the people living in this planet instead of those living in the top 10 richest countries? It's a nonsensical comparison.
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May 5, 2020 10:47
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political dissidents in america do get assassinated as well, c.f. the perplexingly high attrition of black lives matter organisers conditions for activists are clearly worse in latin america, but the issues of US democracy qua being, you know, rule by the people are close to as fundamental as those in the less oppressive latin american countries, even if the touch is much lighter for the most part this is not a statement about the relative levels of violence in these societies, it's a more narrow discussion of the interests represented in their governance. the two aren't unrelated, but they are separate
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May 5, 2020 10:56
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fnox posted:No, it is an entirely unreasonable comparison to make that would only come from someone who legitimately thinks their comfy first-world lifestyle and their not-family-approved hard-left views is in any way comparable to the persecution and corruption someone who was actually born in a third-world unstable democracy has to experience. I'm not saying America is a perfect democracy, far from it, but you're aware there's places in Latin America where being a political dissident means that you may likely be kidnapped and killed, along with your family, right? Like, can we at the very least agree that there's much worse democracies than America? The only dissidents who have been kidnapped and/or killed in Bolivia recently are leftwingers and indigenous activists who were targeted by the current christofascist coup government, hth. Also I note that you offer no actual comparison between Bolivia and the US, instead (ironically enough) opting to argue that Latin America is apparently just one undifferentiated mass of corruption that could never produce an electoral system that's equivalent or superior to those of western countries. No Herrenvolk attitude on full display here, no sir.
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May 5, 2020 11:01
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Cerebral Bore posted:The only dissidents who have been kidnapped and/or killed in Bolivia recently are leftwingers and indigenous activists who were targeted by the current christofascist coup government, hth. Also I note that you offer no actual comparison between Bolivia and the US, instead (ironically enough) opting to argue that Latin America is apparently just one undifferentiated mass of corruption that could never produce an electoral system that's equivalent or superior to those of western countries. No Herrenvolk attitude on full display here, no sir. You had the audacity of comparing third world democracies with America. That analogue that you're using for calling me racist without any justification is adorable too. I mean, there's been several massacres related to political unrest in Bolivia, but sure dude, you have it worse.
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May 5, 2020 11:15
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If there's one thing I've come to learn about Americans, it's that no matter how progressive and worldly they claim to be, it's impossible for them not to see themselves as the focal point of the whole world, bearing the greatest possible burdens and making the most painful possible sacrifices.
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May 5, 2020 11:24
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I surprised that "American democracy is weird and has a lot of problems" is controverse Sure we have our own, different, problems with our democracies down here. But is pretty obvious that their system is broken too
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May 5, 2020 12:22
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fnox posted:You had the audacity of comparing third world democracies with America. That analogue that you're using for calling me racist without any justification is adorable too. The justification for calling you racist is that your entire argument clearly is based on the idea that it's so self-evident that political systems run by brown people are inherently inferior to those run by white people that you don't even have to attempt to justify why America's electoral system is superior to Bolivia's. Which, funnily enough, proves my point so thanks I guess? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 5, 2020 12:28
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I mean, surely they dont have coups and dictatorships happening all the time in the USA, like we do But then, they also dont have a foreign superpower messing with their politics all the time and helping these things happen
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May 5, 2020 12:36
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Elias_Maluco posted:I surprised that "American democracy is weird and has a lot of problems" is controverse It isn't. America's democracy is weird and has a lot of problems. The controversial thing is to lament, as an American, that not enough attention is paid to the flaws of American democracy compared to Latin American elections. Because, not only is that just categorically false by every conceivable measure because America's democracy has to be the most scrutinized and talked about government in the world (just look at the rest of D&D lol), it's also fairly delusional to assume that the strengths of institutions in Latin America as a whole are comparable to that of America. Cerebral Bore posted:The justification for calling you racist is that your entire argument clearly is based on the idea that it's so self-evident that political systems run by brown people are inherently inferior to those run by white people that you don't even have to attempt to justify why America's electoral system is superior to Bolivia's. Which, funnily enough, proves my point so thanks I guess? So saying that you're an entitled American means I'm racist? fnox fucked around with this message at 12:51 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 12:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:The justification for calling you racist is that your entire argument clearly is based on the idea that it's so self-evident that political systems run by brown people are inherently inferior to those run by white people that you don't even have to attempt to justify why America's electoral system is superior to Bolivia's. Which, funnily enough, proves my point so thanks I guess? lol shut the gently caress up peabrain (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 5, 2020 12:50
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America's political system is screwed up but I find it hard to believe Dilma would get impeached there, never mind getting removed. And Brazil is on the upper tier of Good Democracies in Latin America! It's not "racism" — you know we're probably all "brown" here under the lens of USA racial politics, right — to point out that poo poo is worse here and frankly I can't help but agree thinking anything down here is fairer and more FREE than in the USA is some myopic poo poo.
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May 5, 2020 12:52
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Sure, but then again, they dont have an USA above them playing with their politics. Even Dilma impechament had a little help from the empire. And as for the electoral system per se, I dare say ours here (Brazil) is better than theirs, with their crazy district system
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May 5, 2020 13:08
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fnox posted:you're aware there's places in Latin America where being a political dissident means that you may likely be kidnapped and killed, along with your family, right? Like, can we at the very least agree that there's much worse democracies than America? Lol that you think political dissidents don't get kidnapped or murdered in America.
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May 5, 2020 13:14
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VitalSigns posted:Lol that you think political dissidents don't get kidnapped or murdered in America. Not to the degree they do in the rest of Latin America, no. To say it's comparable is delusional, and when an American tries to compare the problems they face in their country with what the third-world has to deal with, it gets pretty loving embarrassing. Particularly, when you know that comes from a position of entitlement.
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May 5, 2020 13:19
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Dias posted:America's political system is screwed up but I find it hard to believe Dilma would get impeached there, never mind getting removed. And Brazil is on the upper tier of Good Democracies in Latin America! see, there's the catch. dilma would never get the chance to run with one of the big boys in the first place, and minor parties never get more than 5% by design. the american system is rigged in a way so only the chosen ones can participate in the first place. sanderistas tried to work within this system and dems rigged their primary twice now, and the courts just went "well, they're a privately owned party nothing we can do" lmfao. don't need to have messy impeachments if both viable candidates are chosen by the correct group of people before the election is even announced. reminder that even trump, a relative wildcard, only saw pushback in the form of rolling eyes and angry posts until he started airing some ruling class dirty laundry. that's not to say the average american has it worse than the population of LA. obviously, being a citizen of the empire is going to be better than being a poor sucker on the periphery working your rear end off to feed said empire citizens. the legitimacy of US elections though? even looking from the neoliberal shithole eastern europe turned into, US elections are a joke at best, and any time an imperial stooge starts handwringing about venezuelan elections i can't help but lol irl
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May 5, 2020 13:38
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Truga posted:the legitimacy of US elections though? even looking from the neoliberal shithole eastern europe turned into, US elections are a joke at best, and any time an imperial stooge starts handwringing about venezuelan elections i can't help but lol irl Dissidents getting murdered, tortured and kidnapped by SEBIN and DGCIM makes me lol irl! You guys try too hard to be edgy and it loving shows.
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May 5, 2020 13:44
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dissidents in the US are in concentration camps and prisons in cases when they're not outright murdered by police/fbi, so you're right that's so much better
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May 5, 2020 13:46
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Truga posted:dissidents in the US are in concentration camps and prisons in cases when they're not outright murdered by fbi, so you're right that's so much better You and I do not live in the same planet. It's crazy like, how badly some of you want to believe you have it bad. It leads to the point of you having to distort your perception of reality to feel that you're not entitled.
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May 5, 2020 13:51
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fnox posted:You and I do not live in the same planet. clearly.
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May 5, 2020 13:54
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Truga posted:clearly. Are you in danger in being sent to this concentration camp in America because you're a leftist, just by any chance? Is this a fear that you have? Where are these concentration camps for dissidents located?
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May 5, 2020 13:57
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Inst Guaido still free, by the way?
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May 5, 2020 14:03
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Good things are just as impossible in the US as in Latin America
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May 5, 2020 14:06
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I'm not in and will never go to USA with my posting history because while I'm fairly dumb, I'm not that dumb.fnox posted:Where are these concentration camps for dissidents located? you can start here, and move to what the prison industrial complex is from there. US prisons are concentration camps of "undesirables" that provide slave labour to their owners and hide the bad stuff from normal people
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May 5, 2020 14:07
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Elias_Maluco posted:Inst Guaido still free, by the way? Is that really the justification? The Venezuelan government can unlawfully detain and murder thousands, torture hundreds, kidnap and harass with total impunity, but because they haven't killed Guaido yet they're the good guys? Or is Guaido being free supposed to be an argument to say that none of the other documented crimes by the Venezuelan government have really happened? What are you trying to say? Truga posted:I'm not in and will never go to USA with my posting history because while I'm fairly dumb, I'm not that dumb. I am 100% certain the US government has no clue about who you are, nor do they care enough to do anything to you should you go there. You're not that important. Truga posted:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/11/rakem-balogun-interview-black-identity-extremists-fbi-surveillance It's not comparable. There are worse evils in the world, you're too naïve. fnox fucked around with this message at 14:12 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 14:08
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Forget about it, American prisons are the worst prisons in the world, because America is SpEcIaL and aWeSoMe even when it comes to bad things, and how dare you suggest otherwise. It's ideology
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May 5, 2020 14:16
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I can say with zero hesitation that Argentina has a better democratic system than the US and I don't say this because I'm a big nationalist or anything (if there's anything Argies are good at, it's lamenting how much our country sucks). fnox, the larger point people are trying to make (at least as I understand it), is that people hold up the US as this bastion of freedom and democracy (especially true in Latin America, even in Argentina) when no, actually the US is quite lovely about those things by every reasonable standard and that's even more reprehensible when you consider it's still the most powerful and influential country in the world. None of this takes away from how many Latin American countries are in much worse positions, but the idolization of the US (whilst refusing to admit its many evils) is a very common talking point in all of America.
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May 5, 2020 14:17
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this is a pretty boring derail anyway and i oughtn't have contributed to it
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May 5, 2020 14:17
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fnox posted:So saying that you're an entitled American means I'm racist? I'm not even American you dingus. Also I note that you still haven't actually made any kind of argument to support your assertion, and instead opt to keep relying on the unstated assumption that the Herrenvolk must be superior by definition in everything they do.
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May 5, 2020 14:18
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fnox posted:Not to the degree they do in the rest of Latin America, no. To say it's comparable is delusional, and when an American tries to compare the problems they face in their country with what the third-world has to deal with, it gets pretty loving embarrassing. Particularly, when you know that comes from a position of entitlement. I think it's inarguable that it doesn't happen to the same degree, but it's also inarguable that if a superior imperial power wanted to justify instigating a military coup in the USA there's enough irregularities in American elections that they'd have no trouble coming up with a fig leaf
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May 5, 2020 14:20
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fnox posted:Is that really the justification? The Venezuelan government can unlawfully detain and murder thousands, torture hundreds, kidnap and harass with total impunity, but because they haven't killed Guaido yet they're the good guys? Or is Guaido being free supposed to be an argument to say that none of the other documented crimes by the Venezuelan government have really happened? Sincerelly, I dont what happens inside Venezuela, as every information ew get about it is heavly biased, to one side or the other But we do know this guy that tried a coup and is still trying to undermine the governemnt, with the help of the USA, is free as a bird And we also know that the USA is still trying hard to topple Maduro by any means possible, like that fiasco on sunday showed
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May 5, 2020 14:22
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GimmickMan posted:(if there's anything Argies are good at, it's lamenting how much our country sucks). you will lose to finns. fight me bitch, finland is the worst shithole at the end of the world
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May 5, 2020 14:29
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Cerebral Bore posted:I'm not even American you dingus. Also I note that you still haven't actually made any kind of argument to support your assertion, and instead opt to keep relying on the unstated assumption that the Herrenvolk must be superior by definition in everything they do. I think you just found out what that word means and now you can't help but say it every post. Elias_Maluco posted:Sincerelly, I dont what happens inside Venezuela, as every information ew get about it is heavly biased, to one side or the other Hmm...What if...The reason why Guaido is still free, is because...He's the US stooge, and if he were to be shot or something, it'd look really bad? And that's a position that none of the other dissidents are in, because they have no clout with America, so they're hosed? Like, not even his right hand man has gotten away scot free, he spent 132 days in jail, because nobody in America gives a gently caress about him. To claim the sources are too heavily biased is a pretty bad cop out. That's just lazy. There's extensive documentation of abuses of power, including videos.
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May 5, 2020 14:34
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fnox posted:I think you just found out what that word means and now you can't help but say it every post. I think you've realized that you have no actual argument and are furiously trying to make this about me rather than the relative fairness of US and Bolivian elections.
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May 5, 2020 14:36
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Cerebral Bore posted:I think you've realized that you have no actual argument and are furiously trying to make this about me rather than the relative fairness of US and Bolivian elections. "Bolivian elections are more fair and transparent than US elections" "They're not" "You're racist" Fertile ground for debate here.
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May 5, 2020 14:42
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fnox posted:"Bolivian elections are more fair and transparent than US elections" Fixed for accuracy.
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May 5, 2020 14:46
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V. Illych L. posted:this is a pretty boring derail anyway and i oughtn't have contributed to it Yeah, I came here to see someone try and defend the Bay of Piglets, not this dumb USPol derail
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May 5, 2020 14:55
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Kurnugia posted:you will lose to finns. fight me bitch, finland is the worst shithole at the end of the world I think there's enough suckitude that we can all suck together. I'm pro-suck redistribution.
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May 5, 2020 14:58
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