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I don't think lost izalith "gets a pass", everyone thinks it's terrible. it's just that they like the rest of the game enough to much more than make up for it
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May 5, 2020 05:57
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Oh what the hell. I tried SOFTS and had a save where i had almost everything done, I exited the game. That was like a month ago, now my goddamn save is gone. EDIT: Nevermind, fixed it Fargin Icehole fucked around with this message at 07:04 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 06:27
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King of Solomon posted:My general observation was that things that are widely agreed to be terrible in non-DS2 Souls games (see Lost Izalith as the prominent example) get a pass or handwaved away while things that are comparatively less bad don't get that treatment in discussions about DS2. The discussion immediately became about how bad XYZ is rather than why some bad things get a pass and other bad things don't. It's definitely possible that I could phrase my end better to actually get the discussion I was looking for, but I think the conversation has run its course regardless of what it could have been. I missed the discussion and I realize most people probably just want to move on, but I do think it’s possible to have a worthwhile talk about the “meta-level” of appreciation of the games. First off I’ll say that I like DS2 the best of the three, but I don’t really agree with your argument. I take your premise as that DS2 has a sort of middling quality on enemy or level design, but lacks the highs or lows of the other titles. Of course, it’s a principle of aesthetics that some people are willing to forgive or overlook “lows” when a work has extremely high “highs”. But I think even if you average out all the high and low points of both games, in terms of level and enemy design, DS2 does fall short (though not by that much). It’s clear that there are a lot of players who 1) are more impressed by highs than they are discouraged by lows, 2) are really bothered by minor, but pervasive and extremely obvious blemishes, like adaptability, soul memory, movement, etc., 3) really care about world design and interconnectivity and 4) mainly evaluate the games based on level design and enemy design. With that being the case, it’s not unexpected that DS2 has a lot of detractors. The only complaint about DS2 I really just don’t understand is that it throws groups of enemies at you. Not only do the other games frequently do that too, they all also give you the tools to handle it if you’re not a giant baby and are willing to change your play style to accommodate it. For me, I like the level and enemy design of Dark Souls a lot (and I don’t think DS2 is bad, just on average not quite as good), but the main reason I love the series is that they’re slow-paced action rpgs with good, challenging combat, a focus on survival and exploration and a deep, crunchy progression system that offers a lot of customization and replayability while rewarding system mastery without ever allowing character progression to negate difficulty. I would love the games even if the level design were outright bad. DS2 has the best progression system by far, by far the most replayability, the best co-op and, to my mind, overall the best fundamental combat system. All that easily makes up for any weaknesses in other areas of the game.
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May 5, 2020 06:33
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Remaster the King's Field series, you cowards!
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May 5, 2020 07:45
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I missed the discussion and I realize most people probably just want to move on, but I do think it’s possible to have a worthwhile talk about the “meta-level” of appreciation of the games. This is a really good post, it gets at a lot of what I was looking for. One thing, though, is I should probably clarify what I mean by middling. I mostly just mean that it's unremarkable, an average level. So to use DS1 as an example, a middling level would be something like the depths, not a tire fire like the Demon Ruins, but not an exceptional level like Sen's Fortress. I think pretty much the entire DS2 base game lands somewhere around there, and I don't think that's a bad thing, especially considering its strengths, which you laid out very well.
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May 5, 2020 08:25
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A problem I see with The Discourse about DS2 is also that it has some traits that for some people (me) are minor and not even really noticeable, while they are absolute dealbreakers to other people. That is something you have in every game (e.g. some people write off all Souls games because there is a chance that someone might invade and they cannot deal with it, no matter how often they're told that you can mitigate that in a number of ways), but in DS2 those things are pretty core. The biggest one, and which took me the longest to understand, is movement. I've never noticed DS2 feel any worse than other Souls games. It's true that you have to push the stick more to start moving, but that's not something I see as bad, it's just how the game works. I switch between games all the time, so yeah of course DS2 is "floatier" and the character moves slower than in Devil May Cry 3, but the gulf between that and DS1 is way bigger than between DS1 and DS2. Similarly, I think DS3 is way more different in game speed and feel than both DS1 and DS2, but it's in a direction more people accept as fine (faster, snappier) so while you do hear a lot of complaints about DS3 being more like an action game that's not quite there in the player movement part, you rarely hear someone say "DS3 is too fast for me, the character runs too quickly and rolls too far, I absolutely cannot deal with it". So you get mocking videos for DS3 like "look at this guy I invaded just roll, roll, roll x15" and someone might go "lol yeah I do like rolling", but DS2 mocking videos are like "look I'm pushing the stick but nothing happens!!!" and most people go "yeah I guess that sucks huh". That's the difference. And it's honestly not something you can argue against because if a fundamental mechanic feels bad, then that's it for the game in most cases. You can of course try to overlook anything (e.g. I think the combat in Breath of the Wild is pretty bad and I'd love for Link to be snappier with his dodges, but the game is not about combat and I can adjust so I'll play it regardless), but if you already dislike the game due to a number of different factors, that's a tough ask. There's of course some mechanics where you COULD have a proper pro/con argument, and those have been done a lot and I think a lot has been learned by all participants (e.g. the health drop on death, how it plays into psychology, how DS3 loses you more on death from being Embered but there it's framed as a reward, etc.), but I think at some point you reach a wall of "no, sorry, I won't accept that this is anything but utterly terrible to me, even though it is not a problem at all to you". And you gotta accept that. even though DS2 is obviously the best Souls
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May 5, 2020 08:52
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As someone who thought DS2 was the worst, but then changed their mind: I found that DS2 had easily the worst first impression of all the soulsborne games, especially coming from DS1. I made a big effortpost about it in the DS2 thread, but the short version is the game directly nerfs a lot of the tactics and defences you had in DS1. That, and all the mechanical changes that adjust the tactile feel really put me off the game (not enough to stop me from beating the game and DLC though). It's only after I replayed the game and treated it as it's own thing, not just Dark Souls Part 2, that I really started to like the game.
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May 5, 2020 17:56
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Heithinn Grasida posted:DS2 has the best progression system by far, by far the most replayability, the best co-op and, to my mind, overall the best fundamental combat system. All that easily makes up for any weaknesses in other areas of the game. Mostly emptyquote. There was a certain charm to the upgrade system in DS1, but it did tend towards "pick a weapon and that's going to be your weapon for this playthrough," while DS2 showers you with upgrade materials to let you do multiple things and the bigger emphasis on damage types makes branching out more valuable. I just wish DS2 had an endgame vendor that sold unlimited twinkling/PDB.
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May 5, 2020 21:48
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BadMedic posted:It's only after I replayed the game and treated it as it's own thing, not just Dark Souls Part 2, that I really started to like the game. I think this is a significant factor in peoples' bad first impressions of DS2. DS2 is a consciously different game from DS1 in nearly every category that matters: its setting, its mood, its aesthetics, its area layout, and its fundamental combat system. Being the sequel to a cult classic meant that people going into it as fans of the first would necessarily have preconceived notions of what the game would entail, and were consequently disappointed that it was doing its own thing. To be clear, that's fine; people like what they like, and I don't think it's unreasonable to have expectations of a sequel following more in lockstep with the original.
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May 6, 2020 00:30
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One thing that Dark Souls II does better than either of the other games is impress a sense of scale upon the player. I'm not sure how much longer than the second or third games it really is, but it shifts focus from a fairly self contained adventure across a relatively small location to something that feels more in line with the a commonly understood fantasy quest. I'm not sure if this is because of the greater variation in biomes, sheer length or story telling, but Dark Souls II feels epic in a way the others don't. I get that that's not for everyone, or necessarily something that the Souls games "should" be doing, but it has it's own appeal. In the balance of things, I probably enjoy Dark Souls 3 the most, but it always feels about 75% finished to me. It just kind of farts to an end by taking you to the starting area again and abruptly parping out a kind of mediocre end boss once you kill the twin princes.
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May 6, 2020 00:32
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The crown dlcs are basically zelda souls and own pretty hard as well. SotFS is my favorite cause its gigantic, melancholic, and riddled with odd secrets and crannies
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May 6, 2020 00:53
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I think at least part of the reason why I love DS2 so much is that it captures a mood of wistful, forlorn melancholy that's rare to see in video games, especially in one without much explicit storytelling. DS1 is about a futile quest to try and keep the world from its seemingly inevitable slide into darkness, while DS3 is more straight up apocalyptic: the sense that everything is ending is constantly bearing down on the head of your doomed struggle. DS2's sadness is the quiet realization that everything good and great has come and gone, but the world - and you with it - will keep going on regardless. Sitting in Majula makes you feel small and powerless in a way that the other games have to do with impossible battles against towering opponents.
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May 6, 2020 03:01
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Going back to the Sekiro thing, I do think there is a through line from DS1 down to Sekiro, where you can see how the gradually refined mechanics extrapolated down into Sekiro. I think the lack of character customization or builds, the specific parry mechanics of the game, and the verticality afforded by the shinobi arm make it diverge significantly. But tying this into the other discussion, Sekiro's healing mechanic is just a fixed version of DS2's and it ends up working very well.
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May 6, 2020 03:23
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Frankly I really don't understand the controls critique of DS2. All three games' controls feel exactly the same to me. I'd even argue that DS2's feel the best because of powerstancing.
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May 6, 2020 03:27
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I rank all darksouls on which is easiest to cheese with bow
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May 6, 2020 03:31
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Eschatos posted:Frankly I really don't understand the controls critique of DS2. All three games' controls feel exactly the same to me. I'd even argue that DS2's feel the best because of powerstancing. if you just don't care that's one thing but there is a difference and it's very plain when shown side by side
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May 6, 2020 03:43
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IronicDongz posted:did you see the post I made just a bit ago which specifies exactly what is different about it, with videos showing the difference Sure I saw it, but to me it doesn't actually feel different. That's all.
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May 6, 2020 03:49
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Eschatos posted:Sure I saw it, but to me it doesn't actually feel different. That's all. Not everyone notices, but it is a thing for sure. For the people who do notice it, it can be a dealbreaker.
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May 6, 2020 03:52
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Paracelsus posted:There was a certain charm to the upgrade system in DS1, but it did tend towards "pick a weapon and that's going to be your weapon for this playthrough," while DS2 showers you with upgrade materials to let you do multiple things and the bigger emphasis on damage types makes branching out more valuable. I just wish DS2 had an endgame vendor that sold unlimited twinkling/PDB. Yes, the game has by far the best weapons and build system.
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May 6, 2020 04:01
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IronicDongz posted:did you see the post I made just a bit ago which specifies exactly what is different about it, with videos showing the difference I've put 100's of hours into all the games and I've never noticed it lol
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May 6, 2020 07:27
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I started with DS3, then BB and Sekiro. I just finished DS2 (but will go back for the dlc crowns) - I just don't see the control problems that are being talked about. Of course it's much slower than the others but other than that I just don't get it. I will say tho, this is by far the most anti-climatic ending of all of them, even with the three back to back bosses. It suits I suppose, but the 2nd boss, even though I've tried to pay attention to the story, I still had no idea who it was or the significance really.
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May 6, 2020 09:24
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The most anticlimactic ending is The Ringed City. You get some paint for Baby Priscilla, maybe.
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May 6, 2020 09:29
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Aidan_702 posted:I started with DS3, then BB and Sekiro. I just finished DS2 (but will go back for the dlc crowns) - I just don't see the control problems that are being talked about. Of course it's much slower than the others but other than that I just don't get it. It's the Queen you spoke to earlier at the top of the castle, who it turns out was a remnant of Manus from the DS1 DLC and drove Vendrick mad to claim the throne for herself axolotl farmer posted:The most anticlimactic ending is The Ringed City. You get some paint for Baby Priscilla, maybe. You got the paint for Elden Ring
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May 6, 2020 09:30
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multijoe posted:It's the Queen you spoke to earlier at the top of the castle, who it turns out was a remnant of Manus from the DS1 DLC and drove Vendrick mad to claim the throne for herself While I understand that, I dont understand what Nashandra wants. Presumably the player is 50% going to follow through on the outcome she wants. Something to do with the Abyss?
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May 6, 2020 09:36
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axolotl farmer posted:The most anticlimactic ending is The Ringed City. You get some paint for Baby Priscilla, maybe. Yes, but I rebut with the presence of lightning and floating skulls multijoe posted:It's the Queen you spoke to earlier at the top of the castle, who it turns out was a remnant of Manus from the DS1 DLC and drove Vendrick mad to claim the throne for herself I mean it was only yesterday but as far as I remember, you have to actually beat her and read the description of her soul to find that out? Aipsh fucked around with this message at 09:48 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 09:40
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I went and started a new playthrough of DS2 after about like, I dunno, 4 or 5 years or so. Having gone 2SOTFS -> 3 -> 1 -> 3 + DLCs -> 2SOTFS + DLCs, what I've realized is that DS2 is fuckoff huge compared to the other 2. I actually ended up missing Huntsman's Copse even after the Lost Sinner, only realizing it when I had already brute-forced my way down the Majula hole (blew 5k souls on falling deaths, still salty about it despite it being inconsequential). This time around I went powerstancing instead of my very first build, which was some real defensive coward poo poo (tower shield and estoc/mace/zweihander), and man do you gently caress poo poo up with a good powerstance set. Right now I'm at Earthen Peak, having remembered how much I hated the Harvest Valley/Earthen Peak poison shithole combo. That said, I really do love how meandering and expansive the game is, with some of its areas being my favorites in the entire series. Heide's Tower of Flame is like a top 10 favorite videogame area of all time for me; the ruins of a floating city with its foundations falling apart, slowly sinking off the coast while the sun shines. It's a hell of a view.
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May 6, 2020 10:23
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axolotl farmer posted:The most anticlimactic ending is The Ringed City. You get some paint for Baby Priscilla, maybe.
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May 6, 2020 17:23
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As of today, DS3 can no longer be Family Shared to another Steam account. Jesus, FROM/Bandai are bad at this.
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May 6, 2020 20:17
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Disco Pope posted:While I understand that, I dont understand what Nashandra wants. Presumably the player is 50% going to follow through on the outcome she wants. Something to do with the Abyss? To be honest I never figured out what was going on with the Throne of Want. I guess it allows her to stay unhollowed or something?
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May 6, 2020 20:34
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Vermain posted:I think at least part of the reason why I love DS2 so much is that it captures a mood of wistful, forlorn melancholy that's rare to see in video games, especially in one without much explicit storytelling. DS1 is about a futile quest to try and keep the world from its seemingly inevitable slide into darkness, while DS3 is more straight up apocalyptic: the sense that everything is ending is constantly bearing down on the head of your doomed struggle. DS2's sadness is the quiet realization that everything good and great has come and gone, but the world - and you with it - will keep going on regardless. Sitting in Majula makes you feel small and powerless in a way that the other games have to do with impossible battles against towering opponents. I agree whole-heartedly with this. DS2 is weird as hell and sad and feels the most like a King's Field game of all of them. I'm okay with people who say that doesn't work for them--it's a very niche thing to look for in a game. But it's something that I hadn't really felt since KF2, which is one of my favorite games of all time and also feels like a sort of depressive fever dream... but instead of something like totally abstract like Yume Nikki it's someone else's depressive fever dream that you're walking through. I can understand "it's disjointed" being a complaint if you came straight from DS1 and you wanted more Metroidvania-ish design but I feel like it works as a theme. I also think that theme carries into your own character, who in a goofy sort of lucid dream way you can make into anything you want in a way that's more limited with DS1 and DS3.
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May 6, 2020 20:43
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Earlier it was mentioned that Bloodborne doesn't get hate because unlike the other game's it's practically perfect with no lows. But I can think of one low. The fact that you have to constantly farm for blood vials! It's not even a matter of just killing the enemies in the area. Some parts of the game, like the Unseen Village almost never have the enemies drop blood vials or much of anything.
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May 6, 2020 21:13
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punk rebel ecks posted:Earlier it was mentioned that Bloodborne doesn't get hate because unlike the other game's it's practically perfect with no lows. But I can think of one low. The fact that you have to constantly farm for blood vials! It's not even a matter of just killing the enemies in the area. Some parts of the game, like the Unseen Village almost never have the enemies drop blood vials or much of anything. I really liked the pressure the blood vial system put on you during my first playthrough, you've got large enough supply on your character that when you need to really throw down you have the capacity to do so, but when you're doing level exploration the long-term consequences of running low is a big enough incentive not to just chug them constantly and pushes you to rely on rally more. Then on future playthroughs you'll probably realise you can just pay the blood echoes tax after you've finished leveling and sit at 900+ in stock pretty much indefinitely.
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May 6, 2020 21:27
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multijoe posted:I really liked the pressure the blood vial system put on you during my first playthrough, you've got large enough supply on your character that when you need to really throw down you have the capacity to do so, but when you're doing level exploration the long-term consequences of running low is a big enough incentive not to just chug them constantly and pushes you to rely on rally more. Then on future playthroughs you'll probably realise you can just pay the blood echoes tax after you've finished leveling and sit at 900+ in stock pretty much indefinitely. For me it's like "okay after five tried I think I have the handle of this boss! And...now I need to vial farm." Also the camera is not designed well for many bosses and their tells can be difficult to see thanks to the character designs. That's all that comes to mind though.
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May 6, 2020 22:03
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multijoe posted:To be honest I never figured out what was going on with the Throne of Want. I guess it allows her to stay unhollowed or something? Nashandra isn't undead, so hollowing is a non-issue. She's a fragment of Manus from DS1, one of four (the others are in the DLCs). Each fragment embodied some aspect of Manus, and she was his craving for power. And long story short, her hunger for power led to most of the bad things happening in Drangleic. Nashandra wanted the Throne because it's pretty much the stand in for the First Flame. The structure the throne is in is even shaped like an actual kiln. So, she wanted that power and pushed the Bearer of the Curse to tear down all its defenses so she could swoop in at the end and take the prize. It's not presented the best in the game, and a number of plot hits require you to go back to her weird throne room at different points to fill in some details.
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May 6, 2020 22:07
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multijoe posted:To be honest I never figured out what was going on with the Throne of Want. I guess it allows her to stay unhollowed or something? The best interpretation of everything the game lays out is that Nashandra, as a shard of Manus, is drawn towards immensely powerful souls, a victim of her own insatiable desire. Sitting on the Throne of Want gives you the power to link the fire once more, which would thus allow her to claim the First Flame for herself. More abstractly, the Throne of Want is metaphorically representative of man's fatal flaw of unceasing, unquenchable desire. It seemingly gives you immense power, but it's power that's shackled to an ultimately pointless cycle: people desire order and power, so they constantly link the fire, build great kingdoms, and then watch them crumble as hubris and decay inevitably claims them. Aldia and Vendrick both realized this, and tried to find a third option in their own way, but they both ultimately failed. The quest you undergo to collect the three crowns in the DLC is specifically about witnessing this cycle first hand and, ultimately, rejecting it by rejecting the Throne. It's an explicitly Buddhist narrative. Vermain fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 22:18
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Vermain posted:The best interpretation of everything the game lays out is that Nashandra, as a shard of Manus, is drawn towards immensely powerful souls, a victim of her own insatiable desire. Sitting on the Throne of Want gives you the power to link the fire once more, which would thus allow her to claim the First Flame for herself. Yeah I'd got the idea the game was going for a buddhist thing with the repeated references endless desire without satisfaction, I just never really knew what the actual practical deal with the Throne was, but that makes a little more sense at least.
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May 6, 2020 22:39
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multijoe posted:Yeah I'd got the idea the game was going for a buddhist thing with the repeated references endless desire without satisfaction, I just never really knew what the actual practical deal with the Throne was, but that makes a little more sense at least. It's pretty easy to either miss or forget. The only indication of what she wants you to sit on the Throne for is three lines from the very last conversation you have with the Emerald Herald, so I can't blame people for being confused over it.
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May 6, 2020 22:48
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It’s the throne of want because she wants you sit on it.
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May 6, 2020 23:03
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Logan 5 posted:As of today, DS3 can no longer be Family Shared to another Steam account. Incredible. What prompted it exactly? Imagine they had been stupid enough to do this back when everyone and their mother was afraid that somebody like Malcolm Reynolds could get them softbanned. And I remind you there was in fact a technique to mass-add certain items to other people without their consent.
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May 7, 2020 05:51
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Tallgeese posted:Incredible. What prompted it exactly? I'm guessing it's namco-bandai who's behind it because they're really, really weird about streaming and stuff. For example, you just straight up can not stream Gundam Breaker 3 or the PS4 Super Robot Wars games at all. For absolutely no reason, and the games already block you from recording cinematics and stuff or taking screenshots during certain parts of the games.
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May 7, 2020 09:16
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