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They nailed the Clone Wars ending - so good!
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May 6, 2020 00:24
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Madurai posted:I think the most important takeaway is that the Republic Y-wing has a shovel as part of its standard equipment loadout. You see Rex putting it back in its bracket as they're getting ready to go. Warbirds having a good kit of survival equipment is a classic pulp trope.
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May 6, 2020 02:04
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jivjov posted:I always was a fan of the Traviss interpretation of Order 66 being just one of 150 contingency orders for various circumstances. The chip still works with that; it overrides their own personal feelings toward their Jedi friends, but the order was always there "just in case" The thing with clones in the old canon is that the regular troopers are basically human automatons and little different than droids. Their DNA was tampered with so they'd follow orders without question and have little personality. Only the ARC and Commando clones had real independent thought. Since the show recons this to each trooper being an actual human being there needs to be a reason they immediately execute their Jedi comrade-in-arms with neither hesitation nor question and fall in line behind the new Empire instead of defending the Republic they've fought for. This is what I think Palpatine meant when he said it would be "civil war without end" if the Jedi weren't destroyed by Order 66 The clone army would have fractured between those who would have sided with the Empire and those who would side with the Jedi. I think the chips do a fine job of resolving this and layering another tragedy on top of the Jedi Purge. The clones' individuality is destroyed and they are effectively transformed into stormtroopers. The clones win the war and in an instant they all become a casualty of it.
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May 6, 2020 04:46
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The basic clone troopers were definitely not mindless flesh automatons in the old canon. Even the flash grown spaarti clones that were implied to be lesser than the kamino clones were still bright and capable of free thinking and moral objections. The Empire pretty quickly began phasing out Jango Fett clone production because of the number of mutinies during Order 66 and the later Clone Rebellion because the working theory was that an entire army built from the same template was too susceptible to corruption. If one clone is able to be influenced to choose friendship over duty then so are others. Saying that the old canon didn't differentiate clones, be they troopers up to ARC Troopers is being reductive. Perhaps not to the extent of regular clones customizing their helmet patterns like TCW but still plenty of characterization. The big difference in the old canon is the relationship between the clones and the Jedi, which is a lot more complicated than in TCW. One thing clone wars doesn't really touch on is that Jedi were never trained to be military commanders. Some took to it well like Anakin and Obi Wan while others waffled on tactics because they aren't generals. And no this is not limited to Karen Traviss books. Plenty of clones in legends had trouble with their commanders because of the Jedi inexperience with warfare. Commando units took 50% casualties on geonosis by being deployed as frontline infantry. Ad-hoc Jedi units like the Padawan Pack were slaughtered leaving clones without ranking officers. Yoda, who was a capable commander, was intentionally sidelined by Palpatine because he was leading the grand army too well and throwing a wrench into Sheev's plans to bleed the Jedi dry. The working relationship between the Jedi and the Clones was touchy a lot of the time, with people like Quinlan Vos surviving Order 66 due to his inherent mistrust of the clones. Clone wars usually treats the Jedi as superhuman warriors leading from the front and earning the trust of their men. For a show that is more interested in the emotional relationship between characters than the professional relationship, the show doesn't always go in depth with discussions of tactics and the proper roles that Jedi are suited for. Meanwhile Legends was full of pedantic nerd authors who loved that poo poo. Seriously the 501st Journal is a bafflingly good bit of writing for a tacked on singleplayer campaign in Battlefront 2 good version. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 05:41 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 05:39
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OhFunny posted:The clones' individuality is destroyed and they are effectively transformed into stormtroopers. I don't think there's a lot of evidence for that, just because they were robbed of their autonomy in the case of one specific order doesn't mean their entire personality is erased. It's not much different than a Jedi mind trick really.
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May 6, 2020 16:16
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Arcsquad12 posted:The basic clone troopers were definitely not mindless flesh automatons in the old canon. Even the flash grown spaarti clones that were implied to be lesser than the kamino clones were still bright and capable of free thinking and moral objections. The Empire pretty quickly began phasing out Jango Fett clone production because of the number of mutinies during Order 66 and the later Clone Rebellion because the working theory was that an entire army built from the same template was too susceptible to corruption. If one clone is able to be influenced to choose friendship over duty then so are others. Side note: Read up on the Padawan Pack and what the appeared, and holy poo poo it seems to be a stupid Dark and edgy for sake of Dark and Edgy bullshit.
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May 6, 2020 16:30
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General Dog posted:I don't think there's a lot of evidence for that, just because they were robbed of their autonomy in the case of one specific order doesn't mean their entire personality is erased. It's not much different than a Jedi mind trick really. "In that moment, clone troopers become stormtroopers. And that's what Dave always wanted to try and get across. It's not about emotion at that point. It's like, 'I just need to get my job done.'" - Keith Kellogg (Animation Supervisor)
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May 6, 2020 16:50
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bunnyofdoom posted:Side note: Read up on the Padawan Pack and what the appeared, and holy poo poo it seems to be a stupid Dark and edgy for sake of Dark and Edgy bullshit. Oh yeah I'm not defending the quality of the writing, but I am using the scenario as an example of the kind of difficulties the Jedi faced in the old canon. The Battle of Jabiim as a concept is neat as a major hurdle in the early days of the clone wars, but its execution in the comics leaves a lot to be desired. Thank god for the New Essential Chronology. It may have errors and literally ends on a cliffhanger but it does an admirable job of turning decades of contradictory star wars media into a readable account that is often more compelling than the actual books.
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May 6, 2020 16:50
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Vinylshadow posted:"In that moment, clone troopers become stormtroopers. And that's what Dave always wanted to try and get across. It's not about emotion at that point. It's like, 'I just need to get my job done.'" - Keith Kellogg (Animation Supervisor) Stormtroopers weren't automatons either, they were as human as anyone else.
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May 6, 2020 18:58
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Disney has a rather unpleasant relationship with Stormtroopers where they're comic relief, take horrendous cannon fodder casualties, and then also get disturbing backstories about indoctrination and kidnapping. They at once treat them even more callously than the OT while also giving them more depth while seemingly not noticing the issue with the violence inflicted on them.
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May 6, 2020 19:24
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General Dog posted:Stormtroopers weren't automatons either, they were as human as anyone else. Mandolorian goes a long way in showing this even more with the scene between the two Biker Scouts and Baby Yoda.
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May 6, 2020 19:29
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Star Wars has talked up the idea of Stormtroopers being these pitiless thugs, and then on-screen do nothing but making them seem like relateable regular Joes. The village masacre in TFA was our first actual war-crimery we got to see.
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May 6, 2020 20:20
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Most pitiless thugs are just regular Joes
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May 6, 2020 20:51
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Madurai posted:Star Wars has talked up the idea of Stormtroopers being these pitiless thugs, and then on-screen do nothing but making them seem like relateable regular Joes. The village masacre in TFA was our first actual war-crimery we got to see. Man you totally forgot about Owen and Beru. In the literal first movie.
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May 6, 2020 20:53
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bunnyofdoom posted:Man you totally forgot about Owen and Beru. In the literal first movie. The Jawa massacre, too--but we never see them do it.
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May 6, 2020 20:56
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Stormtroopers were only "jokes" against Ewoks to start, really (which is another of the many issues with Jedi). They were an extension of arms of the Empire that just waded through Rebel troops in general (beginning of ANH AND Empire), and only "failed" when they were purposely letting the heroes escape so they could be tracked or purposely herding Luke to Vader. One of my issues with Rebels is that they clearly show that stormtroopers are indoctrinated normal children and stuff and then treat them as canon fodder and comic relief in the Jedi manner.
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May 6, 2020 21:08
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I've never liked the idea of stormtroopers being conscription rabble of brainwashed kidnap victims. Conscripts, ne'er-do-wells, guys without other options, and the patriotic should make up the vast body of gray armored infantry like Han Solo. Stormtroopers should have been the guys In It to Win It Waffen SS types.
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May 6, 2020 22:20
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the brainwashed troops only made up the bulk of the First Order armies. PT - Clones OT - Volunteers and Conscripts ST - Imperial die hards and the brainwashed
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May 6, 2020 22:23
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Solo brought back the Imperial Army from Legends to make a distinction between the Corps and the regular army. But even the Stormtroopers in Solo were average Joe's who shot the poo poo with one another. Same with the Scouts in Mandalorian. They're just people.
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May 6, 2020 22:43
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bunnyofdoom posted:Man you totally forgot about Owen and Beru. In the literal first movie. We don't know 100% it was Stormtroopers. Could've actually been Sand People. Could've been a murder-suicide.
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May 6, 2020 23:15
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Nah, those were just the skeletons of the stormtroopers sent to investigate the homestead in search of the droids
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May 7, 2020 00:35
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Teek posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but the brainwashed troops only made up the bulk of the First Order armies. Depends on level of brainwashing you're talking about. Sci-fi brainwashing is First Order Troopers. Rebels era stormtroopers are conscripts and children who are "brainwashed" from youth to believe in the Empire as a cause. Every Imperial planet has an academy that have people join as children, so you get a Hitler Youth situation going on.
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May 7, 2020 00:50
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Yea, look into the culture of Interwar Germany and Japan, especially when the Fascism and Militarism was full on. There were entire generations who thought that their horrible governments was the best thing ever and dying for it was the best thing they can do. The Empire has 30 years to indoctrinate millions of people into their war machine. And being a true believer of a genocidal regime does not prevent something from being a average joe. Waffen-SS guys didn't just sit around thinking about Hilter between murdering Soviet Civilians.
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May 7, 2020 02:11
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General Dog posted:We don't know 100% it was Stormtroopers. Could've actually been Sand People. Could've been a murder-suicide. I firmly believe Obi-Wan set them on fire before he used his contacts with the Sand People to ambush Luke and set the ball rolling.
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May 7, 2020 04:25
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Sash! posted:I firmly believe Obi-Wan set them on fire before he used his contacts with the Sand People to ambush Luke and set the ball rolling. R2 rigged the moisture vaporators to combust before he fled the farm. He was given these directions way back at Obi-Wan and Yoda’s summit on the Tantive IV when Luke was an infant. Obi-Wan executed his own little Order 66.
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May 7, 2020 04:31
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have to give props to Kevin Kiner. I've never really been a fan of his music since it sounds like budget Williams and that's often the worst approach to take when doing Star Wars music. That being said, he did a bang up job with Season 7. I know that you can't always get a full orchestra to do show tunes, but what he put out for this season was quite good. Good job, Kiner. And now to walk back all that praise by saying he's never made a tune as catchy as several of the Mandalorian tracks Ludwig Göransson pumped out. That show's musical identity is built out of Rocky Balboa, Ennio Morricone and Chambara films and it is awesome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf9t_ack258
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May 7, 2020 04:43
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The score for the last few episodes was extremely Blade Runner, which is cool
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May 7, 2020 04:44
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The thing is "Average Joe's" are quite often horrible scumbags so I don't really see any problem with how Stormtroopers get mowed down in the OT. It's fine to say it's tragic or have stories that humanize them but kinda dumb to blame the heroes for shooting at Space Nazis, especially since OT era Stormtroopers were usually in Legends and always in nucanon portrayed as having willingly signed on. The sequels on the other hand are uncomfortable as all hell because they go on and on about how the new Stormtroopers are all brutalized child soldiers literally kidnapped from their families who have their brains physically messed with yet are gunned down with a glee bordering on how the Battle Droids were depicted. And one of the main characters even was one! You would think he would tell people to stop cheering at murdering his fellow child soldiers. Not even a "I know we have no choice but could you at least not laugh about it guys."
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May 7, 2020 04:51
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That's the trouble when you go an humanize an antagonist. It makes it harder to pull the trigger. They don't have to be right, but they are still human. The sequels have got an utterly hosed disconnect between intentionally tragic enemy grunts and the traditional star wars need to see Stormtroopers brutalized.
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May 7, 2020 04:56
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General Dog posted:R2 rigged the moisture vaporators to combust before he fled the farm. He was given these directions way back at Obi-Wan and Yoda’s summit on the Tantive IV when Luke was an infant. Obi-Wan executed his own little Order 66. The stormtroopers would have reported back that they tracked the droids to the Lars homestead and that the droids were not there because their nephew Luke was out looking for them himself. Vader would have received this update and, being not a moron, remembered that he was spent an interesting weekend there. Wait, hang on, their nephew? Who the hell is that? He checks it out and...Luke Skywalker what the hell? Obviously, Obi-Wan knew this loose end had to be tied up.
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May 7, 2020 05:08
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Guys, it was already explained how the homestead burned down, and we didn't even need one of those STAR WARS EXPLAINED/THEORIES/DECODED videos to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvigB7GFqJ8
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May 7, 2020 05:12
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I do like the way that Clone Wars recontextualizes Obi-Wan's knowledge of Anakin and Padme's relationship. In the show it's blatantly obvious that Obi-Wan knows what is up between the two. Thing is, I don't think it's ever made clear that Padme knows that he knows. So when he visits her in Sith and drops the bomb that he knows Anakin is the father, instead of it being a reveal that he finally knows why Padme is reluctant to help him find Vader, it is instead an admission by Obi-Wan that he knew the whole time and it's more like he's trying to let her know how much he cares for both of them rather than admonishing her.
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May 7, 2020 20:53
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Arcsquad12 posted:Guys, it was already explained how the homestead burned down, and we didn't even need one of those STAR WARS EXPLAINED/THEORIES/DECODED videos to do it. This isn’t troops.
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May 7, 2020 21:04
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Arcsquad12 posted:I do like the way that Clone Wars recontextualizes Obi-Wan's knowledge of Anakin and Padme's relationship. In the show it's blatantly obvious that Obi-Wan knows what is up between the two. Thing is, I don't think it's ever made clear that Padme knows that he knows. So when he visits her in Sith and drops the bomb that he knows Anakin is the father, instead of it being a reveal that he finally knows why Padme is reluctant to help him find Vader, it is instead an admission by Obi-Wan that he knew the whole time and it's more like he's trying to let her know how much he cares for both of them rather than admonishing her. Not only does Obi-Wan know about Anakin and Padme, it’s strongly suggested that Yoda, Mace, and a large portion of the Clone Army know as well (and Ahsoka of course).
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May 7, 2020 21:12
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Arcsquad12 posted:Guys, it was already explained how the homestead burned down, and we didn't even need one of those STAR WARS EXPLAINED/THEORIES/DECODED videos to do it. Ahem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNhPHWCNuoQ
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May 7, 2020 21:38
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Arcsquad12 posted:I do like the way that Clone Wars recontextualizes Obi-Wan's knowledge of Anakin and Padme's relationship. In the show it's blatantly obvious that Obi-Wan knows what is up between the two. Thing is, I don't think it's ever made clear that Padme knows that he knows. So when he visits her in Sith and drops the bomb that he knows Anakin is the father, instead of it being a reveal that he finally knows why Padme is reluctant to help him find Vader, it is instead an admission by Obi-Wan that he knew the whole time and it's more like he's trying to let her know how much he cares for both of them rather than admonishing her. Obi Wan recognizes it because of Satine as well, which is kind of why he lets it fly.
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May 8, 2020 04:04
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https://twitter.com/Polygon/status/1258867498121752576 Well, poo poo.
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May 8, 2020 22:43
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Woops wrong thread
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May 8, 2020 22:48
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Imagine the manchild tears if Boba gets absolutely clowned by Mando or Cara Dune.
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May 8, 2020 22:50
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I mean, if anyone can bring back Boba Fett and have it not be stupid, it's the guy who brought back Darth Maul and had it not be stupid.
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May 8, 2020 23:45
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