|
Craptacular! posted:The thing is, he created an rear end-pull story about there being a lot of kids like her and the Fireflies don’t need her anymore to gaslight her away from her own willingness to sacrifice for the greater good. Have not gone through the leaks in detail but I expect they will delve into the implications of the first game's ending heavily considering the controversial leaks.
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 22:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 08:28 |
|
|
Bonaventure posted:my interpretation of this story is based entirely on my personal and particular neuroses theres no way youre this oblivious lmao
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 22:32
|
|
|
Homora Gaykemi posted:i only played a couple of hours of Last of Us and then bounced since i didn't really click with it but the buff lady has my interest piqued on this one Exactly
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Stux posted:love to overrule or ignore another persons agency because i care about them Again, overruling someone's agency isn't "good" or a healthy dynamic; but it also has nothing to do with "caring about them as a person". Zeta Acosta posted:joel did nothing wrong things are wholly good or wholly bad, human relationships are 1s and 0s, what the gently caress is nuance?? ImpAtom posted:Zombies are still a factor in the sequel. They are all over the leaked footage. One of the scenes has Joel and Ellie arguing after they find the tragic remains of people who got infected. Why are you interrupting their bad faith attacks? Having a buff female character completely invalidates my post-apocalyptic fantasy and furthermore - 
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 22:39
|
|
|
feeling internally that you care about someone is entirely seperate from actually caring about them as people are entirely capable of caring about someone from an entirely selfish perspective for example: joel from "the last of us"
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 22:44
|
|
|
Stux posted:feeling internally that you care about someone is entirely seperate from actually caring about them as people are entirely capable of caring about someone from an entirely selfish perspective for example: joel from "the last of us" The selfishness you're referencing here is similar to the selfishness of a parent who countermands their suicidal kid. The story of TLOU makes it seem to the viewer like the stakes are much bigger and that Ellie's decision would be a "worthwhile suicide" - but for Joel, a man who has come to identify wholly as her father, none of these stakes matter when these people are telling him how "his kid" should be allowed to commit suicide, for the "greater good". You can argue "Joel isn't really her dad" but this doesn't really matter - say Joel was actually her biological father, and that he'd done exactly what happened in the ending - would that make his actions excusable? Should a parent let their kid take their own life for "the greater good"? You can also argue that "Joel was justified in his actions but shouldn't have lied to Ellie" and then - sure? Not sure I'd disagree with that but the lie is a much smaller issue than the actions Joel took to save her.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 23:01
|
|
|
The game was boring and I'm going to whoop their asses
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 23:04
|
|
|
Stux posted:feeling internally that you care about someone is entirely seperate from actually caring about them as people are entirely capable of caring about someone from an entirely selfish perspective for example: joel from "the last of us" that's some fine hair-splittin' there stux, nice work
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2020 23:17
|
|
|
Stux has bad opinions about Final Fantasy but good opinions about Last of Us. These character nuances are standard fare for most contemporary dramatic literature and cinema but I guess they still confound gamers
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
The real winners here are the people who thought TLoU1 was derivative garbage already and this is just the natural evolution of lovely writers huffing their own farts.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
TLOU had good production values and this fooled people into thinking it had good other things it didn't have, such as plot and characters.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:01
|
|
|
This thread has been fun to read and so have the reddit reactions. it's awesome to me that the thing that seems to have broken people the most is Abby's muscles.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:12
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:That’s also not the same as not caring Stux I thought he said as a person. Joel in the ending reminds me of those dads who post those screeds about their daughters dating and basically threatening bodily harm if you touch her. It goes from being about what is best for the daughter to what is best for themselves.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:12
|
|
|
postpone the game, give it another year in development and hire nicolas winding refn to do some rewrites.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:14
|
|
|
Starks posted:postpone the game, give it another year in development and hire nicolas winding refn to do some rewrites. Only God forgives the Last of Us.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:20
|
|
|
Yoko Taro presents: The Last of Us
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:23
|
|
|
Ham posted:The selfishness you're referencing here is similar to the selfishness of a parent who countermands their suicidal kid. The story of TLOU makes it seem to the viewer like the stakes are much bigger and that Ellie's decision would be a "worthwhile suicide" - but for Joel, a man who has come to identify wholly as her father, none of these stakes matter when these people are telling him how "his kid" should be allowed to commit suicide, for the "greater good". it isnt though, at all. to base your entire point on this premise is bizarre and such a strange jumping off point that i dont really know how to address what that implies to everything else you say. the reason the lie is such a big deal is because it underpins what the selfishness was. it also highlights the extreme and absolute nature of his actions. he unilaterally decides for her to the point of making it impossible for her to ever have a say in it. at the end she knows exactly what he has done, she isnt an idiot. when ellie is asking him what happened she is reaching out to him, to the part of him she is certain must still be there, for his humanity and his ability to see other people as actual humans and not just extensions of himself and his reaction is to lie, and not just lie but lie to a comical degree as if shes an idiot, to try and convince her what she knows must have happened didnt. it belies his intent in his actions as self serving and not out of genuine care for her as another person. its not subtle. if he had grown as a person, if he was to be redeemed even at this stage, then to admit what he did and to take responsibility for his actions, and to treat those around him with respect, that wouldve been his chance at some sort of redemption. he didnt, because he cant, because he isnt a very good person, and his care for ellie is entirely as a surrogate for the things he lost and cannot get back, and not for her as a person. this is the whole point of showing him slowly trusting her and giving her responsibility and building that up to then contrast with him doing the exact opposite at the moment it counts the most. this is the entire point of his character. apparently everyone is having a big mental block about this because "joel save ellie" Dewgy posted:that's some fine hair-splittin' there stux, nice work agreed the distinction between "this person cares about another person because of who that person is and with respect of their agency and individuality" and "this person cares about another person because they fufill a psychological need they have and this overrules the other persons agency" is "splitting hairs" much like the distinction between "earth" and "mars" because at the end of the day theyre both planets, so what if one is inhospitable to human life. that just being pedantic. CharlieFoxtrot posted:Stux has bad opinions about Final Fantasy but good opinions about Last of Us. gamers deserve tlou2
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:24
|
|
|
Zeta Acosta posted:Yoko Taro presents: The Last of Us
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:26
|
|
|
Starks posted:postpone the game, give it another year in development and hire Sarah Waters to do some rewrites.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:28
|
|
|
Get Zach Snyder for tlou3
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:30
|
|
|
get christopher nolan he likes ruining stories by adding 20 minutes of pointless overexposition on the end to make sure you really get it hes perfect for video games
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:32
|
|
|
Stux posted:it isnt though, at all. to base your entire point on this premise is bizarre and such a strange jumping off point that i dont really know how to address what that implies to everything else you say. This only works if you accept the premise that killing Elie would actually have saved the world. If you accept that it's the complete idiocy it was, then it's because he has no way of telling her "The closest thing to an adoptive family you had outside of my sorry rear end were a bunch of loving idiots who were going to kill you as a crowning achievement to cap their campaign of making everything worse out of being fuckwits. I killed your adoptive mother, because she was as terrible as the rest of them. She was ready to make the bet that eating your brain would make her immune to a fungal infection. Anyway, I killed a boatload of them and we're going home to where saner people live." The real problem is that Neil Drukman is so far up his own rear end that he doesn't realize that, so he tried to milk the drama he thinks he put in, and that's the one you want to see, but it's not there, because the writing in TLOU sucked rear end. Also it's the sort of plot that genuinely makes people angry, and has since time immemorial. Count the number of variations on Iphigenia's Sacrifice. So people will immediately undermine it because protecting others are what humans do pretty instinctively, outside of enforced factional hostility, which kinda undermines Neil Drukman's Dark And Grim And Serious thing. At least wh40k had the redeeming value of being aware it was ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:37
|
|
|
remember when people were convinced the game said it wouldnt work and the fireflies didnt know what they were doing because they wanted joels actions to be justified so badly they mentally rewrote a log from a doctor saying "this will work" into "this wont work"
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:44
|
|
|
Stux posted:it isnt though, at all. to base your entire point on this premise is bizarre and such a strange jumping off point that i dont really know how to address what that implies to everything else you say. What are you actually talking about here? You didn't specify, but quoted my entire post. Again, had Joel been Ellie's biological dad, would his reaction and not giving her the option to kill herself make sense? Or do you expect a parent would accept their teenage daughter's suicide because she wishes it so and they really respect their daughter's agency? For all intents and purposes, by the end of the original game's story he considers Ellie to be his family, and to him as a "father", he can't accept her willingly killing herself, whatever the reason.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:45
|
|
|
quote:The selfishness you're referencing here is similar to the selfishness of a parent who countermands their suicidal kid. this bit.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:46
|
|
|
i think the moral/ethical dilemma that is staged at the end of tlou is pretty good actually--good because of the correct insight that the ethical reasoning of human beings is often significantly delimited by the intimate boundaries of their real or imagined 'community.' the people outside of these boundaries are usually, quite frankly, less real than the people within them. and this is a familiar problem in moral philosophy. i don't think this is the central drama of tlou however because it is only discernible at the end of the game. the central drama for much of the game is whether joel is or isn't so broken that he can't value anything beyond himself. it turns out he can. but he now has the almost opposite problem--he's become so codependent upon ellie or whatever other surrogate daughter he can find for his own identity that he can't imagine a meaningful life without her. it turns out that he has never truly recovered from the loss of sarah. this warping of the boundaries between self and other can be understood as a more complicated kind of egoism--you can never truly recognize the autonomy of another person if your need for them is absolute. the 20 hours of plotting and characterization around this drama is mostly disposable and annoying however. and i don't expect the sequel to be any different. Zane fucked around with this message at 03:34 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:47
|
|
|
Stux posted:remember when people were convinced the game said it wouldnt work and the fireflies didnt know what they were doing because they wanted joels actions to be justified so badly they mentally rewrote a log from a doctor saying "this will work" into "this wont work" Well, really, the game demands, as much as it can, to be taken seriously, with all its serious, "this is the way the real world is", violence. Therefore, the doctors trying to cure a fungal infection by injecting bits from an immune person are openly laughable, they have to be nonsense, the note had to be the other way around. It's just people working over the game and injecting more consistency in it than it already have, like people remembering harry potter as being better than what they've re-read. Then there's the thing where Neil Druckman is there with a knife with this contrived scenario he built and is saying "You have to kill the innocent teenaged girl, it is the right thing to do, it is the only way, if you don't you are immoral." and his contrived scenario results in you not doing it, because you don't have that option, and then he gets to look down upon you for not slitting a child's throat over his altar, and people kinda rebel over that because they have that unvoiced thing hanging around inside themselves about maybe that guy wants to kill kids a little too much. Basically, it's obviously a trolley problem, it's just obviously a trolley problem where the guy who set up the trolley is openly wanking.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:51
|
|
|
Stux posted:this bit. It is 100% the same. It doesn't matter if: - "your daughter dying will definitely give us a chance to cure the virus", - "your daughter dying might give us a chance to cure the virus", - "your daughter would accept her death in order to cure the virus" In none of the above cases would a reasonable parent be expected to accept their teenage child's suicide - and expecting a positive reaction because "they respect their child's agency as a person" is some truly dumb Theoretical Humans stuff. In none of these cases does the impact on the world actually matter - at that instant, the parent's overriding response is to protect their child. Joel pushed this and protected "his child" by massacring a group of innocents who believed they were doing the right thing - just to make sure none came after her.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:51
|
|
|
Ham posted:What are you actually talking about here? You didn't specify, but quoted my entire post. The point of contention over what or whom Joel truly cares about doesn't arise in the decision to become a mass shooter though, it's in the decision to lie to Ellie about what happened. Even if you transpose that "suicidal daughter" analogy, it's not about stopping the suicide but about lying to her that the problems that underlie any drive to suicide even exist
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:53
|
|
|
Stux posted:remember when people were convinced the game said it wouldnt work and the fireflies didnt know what they were doing because they wanted joels actions to be justified so badly they mentally rewrote a log from a doctor saying "this will work" into "this wont work" tbh that log to me said “we are absolutely desperate, we’ll try fuckin anything” and with the extremely limited sterile resources available to them it felt less like hard bioscience and more like feverish devotion to medical science as a form of religion i wouldn’t say joel was in the right, but poo poo, i can’t say i wouldn’t do exactly what he did to save ellie either, even if he hadn’t heard that audiolog that’s why i’m talking about splitting hairs over caring about someone, it’s one thing to go “oh joel you don’t care about her at all”, but like... no, he does, he’s just being a poo poo about it, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:55
|
|
|
the world didnt end so maybe killing ellie wasnt so necessesary as the fireflies tought?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:58
|
|
|
Starks posted:This thread has been fun to read and so have the reddit reactions. it's awesome to me that the thing that seems to have broken people the most is Abby's muscles. You need muscles to break people.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 01:58
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:The point of contention over what or whom Joel truly cares about doesn't arise in the decision to become a mass shooter though, it's in the decision to lie to Ellie about what happened. I think the point of contention here is related to both - his actions and his subsequent lie. Arguably, those specific actions are the entire impetus for the second game's plot drive - the effects of what he did to the world and to the families of the innocents he massacred in order to save his "daughter". My read on the lie was that Joel was closing the door on her sacrificing herself for good - not as an attempt to stop her from leaving him, but a protective drive that just finished what he'd started with his actions in the hospital.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 02:01
|
|
|
OK, I'm just going to say it: Not every game would be improved by having Yoko Taro direct it
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 02:40
|
|
|
Dewgy posted:tbh that log to me said “we are absolutely desperate, we’ll try fuckin anything” and with the extremely limited sterile resources available to them it felt less like hard bioscience and more like feverish devotion to medical science as a form of religion its really not splitting hairs, its a pretty major distinction. truly caring about another person also includes recognising and respecting them as a distinct human being with their own mind and thoughts that arent yours and that arent always going to align with yours. he first completely ignores what she would or wouldnt want, makes that completely final so a conversation about it cannot even be had because that might end up with a result he doesnt want, and then refuses to even be honest about what he did. the kernel of the drive to do that being "i dont want her to die" doesnt erase the rest of it! if someone you care about is giving you the chance openly to be truthful about something, something they might even be upset about, that they clearly already know about, and you refuse that and instead cook up a bonkers lie you have zero respect for that person. Ham posted:My read on the lie was that Joel was closing the door on her sacrificing herself for good - not as an attempt to stop her from leaving him, but a protective drive that just finished what he'd started with his actions in the hospital. he already had closed that door by killing everyone, the lie was because joel is insanely broken by this point and he cares about ellie to the extent that she serves as a replacement for what he has lost. he couldve just told the truth, there was no reason left to lie; he had already made it so she could never go back and sacrifice herself, and she already knew he was lying and was going along with him still regardless. he still lied anyway. there are many things people do because of a "protective drive" that suck a lot and thats part of the point of the ending. you are meant to empathize with him not wanting her to die because of course you would, but that isnt meant to excuse either the extreme and total method he went with or his lack of respect for her. the game ends with a shot of ellie dejectedly saying ok because she is visibly pretty distressed that he wont tell the truth! the game is as subtle as a brick through a window with this stuff.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 03:16
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:Stux has bad opinions about Final Fantasy but good opinions about Last of Us. lol Stux is arguing against nuance in their reading of Joel
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 03:21
|
|
|
he is a bad man because he lied to Ellie full stop he is bad, gamers gamers gamers gamers
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 03:22
|
|
|
SIGSEGV posted:Well, really, the game demands, as much as it can, to be taken seriously, with all its serious, "this is the way the real world is", violence. I feel like this is just a rationalization after the fact, because I remember when I played through the game, it is pretty much left ambiguous whether the procedure will do anything or not. At the very least, they will most likely know information about what is going on than before. But even then, one of the treatments proposed for coronavirus is injecting antibodies from a person that has caught it and survived. So it isn't completely outside the realm of medical plausibility. As for your second point, I don't really see how you can attack Druckmann, yet defend Joel. There are people defending Joel despite him acting like an entitled selfish man, even at the very end of the game. Even if you were to say he did it to defend Ellie, he then lies about it to protect himself. Bonaventure posted:he is a bad man because he lied to Ellie full stop he is bad, gamers gamers gamers gamers He is a bad man because of all of the awful things he did throughout his life in order to "survive" as he calls it. I mean even if you remove the gamers part out about it, the narrative still supports that he is a pretty awful person. blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 03:27 on May 7, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 03:23
|
|
|
Bonaventure posted:lol Stux is arguing against nuance in their reading of Joel How? Most people are stuck on determining whether what Joel did was "right" or not like people who scratch their head at the ending of Do the Right Thing and Stux is the only one providing an analysis of Joel that goes beyond that
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 03:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 08:28 |
|
|
trying to hold Joel or Ellie on trial and figure out if they "bad" or they "good" is missing the point of the ending, the only actually interesting part of the story Stux saying Joel bad because he LIED to a CHILD and that he robbed her of autonomy and that shows he doesn't care about her as a person, man, because didn't let her commit an assisted suicide she hadn't even technically consented to is laughably reductionist
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2020 03:29
|
|