|
Ferrinus posted:i'm pretty sure this is wrong on the technical, marxian-political-economy level so long as the things you're producing are determined and distributed based on their use-value rather than their exchange-value. like yes if you help to manufacture a car and that car is then sold (at state-mandated prices, bought by state-mandated wages, which are used as top-down rationing/distribution mechanisms rather than emergent avatars of the will of the market) to some other worker than the use-value of your labor-power has directly benefited that other worker rather than you, but it's not like i'm alienating myself from my labor if i weave you a coat and give it over as a present. the point is that it's not being peeled away from your corpus in order to add to private profits, for no other reason but that it will increase those profits faster and with absolutely no regard for the nature of the commodities whose sale is finally realizing those profits You're right that there could be no alienation if things were produced and distributed based on use, at least if Marx wasn't somehow horribly wrong. But distribution based on use in a generalized sense (i.e. it's not just healthcare that is free at the point of use, but all the basic stuff so that one could conceivably live without ever having any money) is a full communism thing. The state determining prices changes nothing regarding that: even in unregulated markets commodities are sold at prices that are *not* equal to their values. The point is that on aggregate, they must be sold roughly at their combined value. And in The Economic Problems of the USSR, Stalin admits that it was true for the USSR based on practical knowledge that it was happening. Luckily though, distribution based on use isn't needed to get rid of alienation. What would be needed is integrating every worker into the planning process in some way and getting their consent for decisions. Then, there would be no entity alien to the worker taking the product of their labor and making it mysteriously disappear while producing wages out the ether, but the worker themselves would be involved in what happens to the product and why, and what their compensation is concretely based on and how it works from the perspective of the entire economy. (Distribution based on use in the future is not possible without this sort of open planning process anyway because needs are too personal for some alien planning commission to be able to distribute to the population based on what they personally need when those needs aren't objectively scientifically solved somehow like how it's solved what people who want to be pro athletes need to eat.) Basically, the USSR could have been a heavily de-alienated society if it didn't keep organizing its planning like war planning. Soviet science had already begun producing legit knowledge about how to efficiently democratize the planning process since before the 70's, when Salvador Allende's government tried to put that knowledge to use (and to my knowledge, the planning itself worked without major issues). But at that point, the bureaucracy would have to have been principled enough to throw out a huge chunk of itself as unneeded and reduce them to regular workers, which they couldn't do because they were revisionists intent on justifying their own privileges.
|
# ? May 7, 2020 05:24 |
|
|
# ? May 12, 2024 02:13 |
|
apropos to nothing posted:if im obnoxious ill stop posting here then. only reason i do is cause lots of people in online spaces, even this one, are looking to get organized in some way and want to help in that process. namaste. if autism sneaks was ever the reason i'd stop posting, id take that info to the mass grave.
|
# ? May 7, 2020 05:29 |
|
apropos to nothing posted:yes ive read that. where is the support for the imperialist powers against the ussr? he is critical of the ussr for invading poland, but doesnt call into question its status as a workers state. read this published from the same period where he is specifically defending the analysis of the ussr I laid out. ill quote some key bits: trotsky is defending the USSR on one extremely narrow and completely theoretical point - he is fighting with the "bureaucratic collectivsm" theorists in order to support his own "degenerated worker's state" theory, both of which are the dumb western leftist poo poo that my boy marcel van der linden skewers so succinctly in my link upthread. trotsky doesn't actually refer to any of the USSR's actions or strategic determinations, internally or internationally, with anything but doomsaying or outright contempt - like he's sketching out a scenario there in which the USSR basically builds the nazi military that allows hitler to conquer western europe, before hitler inevitably turns on stalin, whose evil exceeds perhaps even hitler's own. and trotsky repeatedly restates his desire that the soviet people rise up in an insurrection against the soviet bureaucracy in the exact same way that he expects the german people to rise up against the german bureaucracy. he's cheerleading the ussr undergoing another revolution at the same time as the nazis are building up next door! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 05:35 on May 7, 2020 |
# ? May 7, 2020 05:33 |
|
uncop posted:Then, there would be no entity alien to the worker taking the product of their labor and making it mysteriously disappear while producing wages out the ether, but the worker themselves would be involved in what happens to the product and why, and what their compensation is concretely based on and how it works from the perspective of the entire economy. i get what you're saying here. i figured that even if the centrally planned economy isn't SUPER good at being responsive (there's a computer that's just making its best guesses and mostly succeeds at making sure there's enough food year to year) the fact that your labor-power was getting discharged into the same pool you're drawing from, for the principal purpose THAT you are able to keep drawing from it, meant that you weren't technically being "alienated from your labor" in the way you would be if you were selling it to uncle pennybags who only went on to feed you because he needed to keep the machines running
|
# ? May 7, 2020 05:54 |
|
apropos to nothing posted:if im obnoxious ill stop posting here then. only reason i do is cause lots of people in online spaces, even this one, are looking to get organized in some way and want to help in that process. namaste. never stop posting comrade, then your enemies win e: finally got my nojoe back hooray
|
# ? May 7, 2020 06:07 |
|
T-man posted:never stop posting comrade, then your enemies win Be sure to post your best while you're repping us
|
# ? May 7, 2020 06:17 |
|
Ferrinus posted:trotsky is defending the USSR on one extremely narrow and completely theoretical point - he is fighting with the "bureaucratic collectivsm" theorists in order to support his own "degenerated worker's state" theory, both of which are the dumb western leftist poo poo that my boy marcel van der linden skewers so succinctly in my link upthread. trotsky doesn't actually refer to any of the USSR's actions or strategic determinations, internally or internationally, with anything but doomsaying or outright contempt - like he's sketching out a scenario there in which the USSR basically builds the nazi military that allows hitler to conquer western europe, before hitler inevitably turns on stalin, whose evil exceeds perhaps even hitler's own. and trotsky repeatedly restates his desire that the soviet people rise up in an insurrection against the soviet bureaucracy in the exact same way that he expects the german people to rise up against the german bureaucracy. he's cheerleading the ussr undergoing another revolution at the same time as the nazis are building up next door!
|
# ? May 7, 2020 07:02 |
|
This was also stalins reaction to barbarossa
|
# ? May 7, 2020 07:17 |
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdTBIQDPZt4
|
# ? May 7, 2020 07:26 |
|
Jewel Repetition posted:Be sure to post your best while you're repping us i will post the most T-manly i can
|
# ? May 7, 2020 07:40 |
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzq3uoOjmP0
|
# ? May 7, 2020 07:42 |
|
apropos to nothing posted:if im obnoxious ill stop posting here then. only reason i do is cause lots of people in online spaces, even this one, are looking to get organized in some way and want to help in that process. namaste. I like your posting, people who know stuff should post unless they have something more important to do with their time. You bring historical facts into play so people can't argue on the basis of ignorance and have to get deeper into what the facts imply. You force people to make some effort to show how you're wrong when you are. Ferrinus posted:i get what you're saying here. i figured that even if the centrally planned economy isn't SUPER good at being responsive (there's a computer that's just making its best guesses and mostly succeeds at making sure there's enough food year to year) the fact that your labor-power was getting discharged into the same pool you're drawing from, for the principal purpose THAT you are able to keep drawing from it, meant that you weren't technically being "alienated from your labor" in the way you would be if you were selling it to uncle pennybags who only went on to feed you because he needed to keep the machines running Well, the core of the theory of alienation is that people are controlled by things, the theory of commodity fetishism describes that core of the phenomenon of alienation. When the production process becomes social, it also becomes too complex for any single person to understand how their product is made if no effort is made to enable them to understand it. And if the product is produced for appropriation by some entity that commands the worker rather than negotiating with them, the worker couldn't recognize the product of their own hand even if they literally personally found it in a shop and bought it for themselves: they would experience it as buying a mysterious thing with inherent value and so on rather than as a social relation between themselves as a producer and themselves as a consumer. In a non-alienated society, the worker understands concretely what labors their products are made of and where those products go to the point where they could go visit the producers of their inputs or the consumers of their outputs and shake their or their representatives' hand and discuss how production could be done better. They might not recognize their own product if they just randomly found it in a shop, but they could trace it and know it was in that shop at that moment. As long as the capitalist exists, they won't let things be any other way, but taking the capitalist out of the picture isn't in itself enough because the core of the issue arises from the socialization of production rather than the private appropriation of the product. The new thing capital brought into political economy wasn't private property sold on the market, it was the socialization of production in order to produce for a market. Socialism keeps the socialized production but has to figure out how to put the producer back in conscious control of it in a similar way as the producer is in conscious control of private production (e.g. artisan and peasant production). Practice produces knowledge, i.e. control of a system produces understanding of the system, and the dialectic of control and understanding (something feels wrong -> improve it!) destroys the objective basis for alienation. The stakhanovist movement contained a sort of half-step toward worker understanding by raising workers into managers: so long as the worker-manager stayed loyal to the workers, they could act as a mediator between the plan and workers rather than just an overseer of workers for the plan, they could improve things based on understanding them so far as it served the plan. The Cultural Revolution in China took another step with an experimental system of enforced co-management where the designated manager had to make their decisions together with a workers' representative. That means the manager needed to actively relay knowledge to any representative that the workers happened to elect, and the representative needed to relay knowledge to and take input from the common workers. I don't have the time to check who the third part of the co-management system was, but IIRC it was the planner, in which case factory floor workers suddenly had a sort of democratic input into the plan itself. My personal take is that communists needed to take that basic idea and keep iterating on it like the Japanese would iterate on a car design to turn it from barely functional to state of the art over decades. And that Soviet science could already answer where to begin that iterative process although it couldn't go very far without first having a test bed for its theories in society.
|
# ? May 7, 2020 08:10 |
|
US Senator Josh Hawley just learned the word imperialism, and he loves saying it all the time now https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1257635105192980480?s=20 https://twitter.com/HawleyMO/status/1258455785945862144?s=20
|
# ? May 7, 2020 19:57 |
|
tomorrow is a big day
|
# ? May 7, 2020 20:02 |
|
is russia still doing the parade? i guess they could just send the NBC troops through
|
# ? May 7, 2020 20:04 |
Atrocious Joe posted:US Senator Josh Hawley just learned the word imperialism, and he loves saying it all the time now they are playing with fire because in a match up between the lame rear end square u.s. democracy with tight haircuts n diet coke and SOVIET IMPERIALISM for how interesting something sounds to zoomers cause its not even close
|
|
# ? May 7, 2020 20:11 |
|
uncop posted:I like your posting, people who know stuff should post unless they have something more important to do with their time. You bring historical facts into play so people can't argue on the basis of ignorance and have to get deeper into what the facts imply. You force people to make some effort to show how you're wrong when you are. thanks for this writeup. is there a separate term for the specific difference between your labor-power's use-value being seized by a private capitalist instead of going directly into community stores that ISN'T "alienation"? or should i just understand alienation as having an important affective dimension on top of being a bare-bones accounting of who gets what
|
# ? May 7, 2020 20:57 |
|
Atrocious Joe posted:The global economy needs reform top to bottom to stop #China economic imperialism & secure the needs of American families Not quite 14 words, but partial credit...
|
# ? May 7, 2020 21:08 |
|
Dreddout posted:This was also stalins reaction to barbarossa I like the story of how, after hearing news of the invasion, he went up to his cottage and waited, fully expecting the party leadership to execute him for his gross incompetence. Instead a couple of senior military/political leaders (Zhukov was one maybe?) showed up and asked him what the hell they should do.
|
# ? May 7, 2020 21:22 |
|
I'm bitter that I can't get any Michael Parenti books on Kindle
|
# ? May 7, 2020 21:47 |
|
indigi posted:I'm bitter that I can't get any Michael Parenti books on Kindle https://b-ok.org
|
# ? May 7, 2020 23:17 |
|
https://twitter.com/meohmyapplepie/status/1258517535219044353?s=19
|
# ? May 8, 2020 00:33 |
|
and zamzar.net if you need to convert epub to azw3
|
# ? May 8, 2020 00:37 |
|
it's victory day
|
# ? May 8, 2020 14:17 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4HojrYcVck
|
|
# ? May 8, 2020 16:45 |
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC0Om8v8H7g
|
# ? May 8, 2020 16:53 |
|
and the classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0xGimfwDL4
|
# ? May 8, 2020 16:57 |
|
lol
|
# ? May 8, 2020 19:16 |
|
kim isn’t dead so it’s time to re-up a classic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QbC6dLG_dQY
|
# ? May 8, 2020 20:34 |
Lightning Knight posted:kim isn’t dead so it’s time to re-up a classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoSFQb5HVk
|
|
# ? May 8, 2020 22:04 |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liMlM4rhkkA
|
|
# ? May 8, 2020 22:08 |
|
Reading this article every page makes me feel utter contempt for chumpsky https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...atible+Left.pdf quote:One chronicler notes that in the case of the SDS “early international contacts with representatives of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam, the Republic Top City Homo fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 10, 2020 |
# ? May 10, 2020 21:52 |
|
https://twitter.com/taintgunner/status/1259712755969536000?s=19
|
# ? May 11, 2020 06:13 |
|
Gonna need a crate full of those Lenin face masks.
|
# ? May 11, 2020 06:29 |
|
https://twitter.com/BigProsody/status/1259879707127934976
|
# ? May 11, 2020 18:10 |
Be vigilant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvkUXT0pMYE Communism is coming.
|
|
# ? May 12, 2020 19:11 |
|
leo panitch on the recent economic crisis: https://theanalysis.news/interviews/pandemic-shows-need-for-democratic-central-planning-and-public-ownership-leo-panitch/
|
# ? May 12, 2020 21:07 |
|
Can anyone explain the emergence of people who seem to be syncretizing anti-revisionism with very American style idpol stuff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYUmUh2gpJA
|
# ? May 12, 2020 22:37 |
|
LittleBlackCloud posted:Can anyone explain the emergence of people who seem to be syncretizing anti-revisionism with very American style idpol stuff? it's an interesting question and i don't think i can easily sum it up. my feeling is that on the one hand, the notion (although i'm not suggesting you're making this) that marxism-leninism is like a "workerist" thing and unconcerned with the political superstructure as a distraction is a misnomer. in a sense the only way out of this is through, that to build unity within the working class is to oppose racism full stop, that these are democratic struggles to be supported in their own right, and they shouldn't be dismissed as mere "identity politics." but workerism is a thing in some groups, like the trotskyist SEP which publishes the WSWS, frequent target in this sub. that ted cruz tweeted a link to the WSWS other day is a funny little irony. the CPGB-ML, which is a pretty twisted little anti-revisionist group in the UK, is like a fossilized stalinism from the 1950s that instructs its member to cut their hair like tommy robinson because that's what working-class men look like, apparently. i also think american MLism diverged quite a bit though from the foreign parties which the american "parties" emulate, so MLism can become like an identity, and a cargo cult, as opposed to a set of tools, and the party internal structures take the form of a miniaturized leninism more concerned with having the correct "line," but democratic centralism in the early 1900s didn't demand that everyone in the party agree on everything, or have the same opinions about historical topics. they aimed for diversity of debate (including openly in the party papers) but unity of action, like if the party voted to stand in the elections, it'd be prohibited to issue "calls" for boycotting the elections as the elections are going on. so it feels like these parties take decades of history, and then compress it down to a small size, and call that a praxis, even though what the (successful) historical parties they're emulating were doing were changing and adjusting their own methods based on the situation they were in as it evolved, and were in very different situations to begin with! it's just weird, but feels like in "galaxy quest" where they try to transport the alien pig creature through their teleporter and it materializes on the pad inside out and then explodes in a shower of goo. like look back at the video you posted. like (a) okay let's not kid ourselves that this is partly a fashion statement. (b) the subject is that the DPRK is good but some people think it's bad. okay, maybe it's good. maybe it's great! but the actual ability of marxist-leninists to do anything about this situation is extremely small, so the question about whether to support them or not is an intellectual exercise at best, fandom at worst. there's very little talk here, if the DPRK is super-duper awesome, about what to do to support it in a meaningful way. or whether it's a smart move to build your independence as a person, or your independence as a political organization, on this question. but i think a lot of groups do so there's endless splitting.
|
# ? May 12, 2020 23:35 |
|
|
# ? May 12, 2024 02:13 |
|
What's with Western leftists unironic support for the Chinese government? Some posters on r/chapotraphouse stated that the Uighur concentration camps were really vocational and reeducation camps and that it was the Uighur's fault for not assimilating and learning Mandarin. Does this kind of thinking come from some misplaced defence of "actually existing socialism"?
|
# ? May 12, 2020 23:47 |