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ImpAtom posted:the ones who walk away from omelas
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May 8, 2020 00:05
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:19 |
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I'm mad about the dogs. I hate games where humans are just a brainless resource to be harvested, and I've always wanted a shooter where enemies have self-preservation, and you know, can run away. This is not that. "Shooting dogs makes you cry" is a cool gameplay mechanic, IF you had to go really out of your way & be an rear end in a top hat to do it. Forcing you to shoot puppies to keep playing? How about I just stop there? I know you can avoid dogs 'with difficulty' but come on, the principle is still the same. Here's what I think this game is shooting for: Joel's death is brutal and miserable. You, the player, are so angry that you go on the war path & murder everything in your way. Innocent bystanders! Dogs! Families! It's brutal and miserable but you're pulling that right trigger with gleeful abandon, and the message won't get through your gamer skull until somebody says "Revenge is bad, Ellie". Subversive stuff. If you, somehow, come to the conclusion that violence is bad before the game's climax? Nothing changes, and the game doesn't acknowledge you for trying a non-violent approach. (I'm gonna call it now, and be surprised in June if I'm wrong.) This twist was played straight in 2012's Spec Ops, and even THAT validated the choice of "stop playing the game".
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May 8, 2020 00:23
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i think the dog thing is so you treat them as something to avoid killing specifically
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May 8, 2020 00:35
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It's a survival horror game.
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May 8, 2020 00:35
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I mean, can you also get by without killing their owners? Because what's optional and what's not creates a specific set of thematic circumstances I remember reading in that preview that it worked the other way around as well, that the dogs would find their owners' dead bodies and whimper while nudging them to move
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May 8, 2020 00:39
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I mean, can you also get by without killing their owners? Because if not, well that creates a different set of thematic circumstances Yeah they previewed the dogs getting upset and whining over their dead owners ages ago along with the individually named enemies and how they get emotional when you kill their friends.
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May 8, 2020 00:40
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from the little bits we've heard that arent "gamestop making things up" it sounds like they really want you to not kill things that arent zombies and that you can avoid most non-zombie encounters
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May 8, 2020 00:40
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:I mean, can you also get by without killing their owners? Because what's optional and what's not creates a specific set of thematic circumstances wow drukmann is doing what kojima did with mgs1 and the wolfs, what a genius
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May 8, 2020 00:41
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Stux posted:from the little bits we've heard that arent "gamestop making things up" it sounds like they really want you to not kill things that arent zombies and that you can avoid most non-zombie encounters Sure but it's a video game and I bet playing on normal or easy makes it no issue to go directly through problems in a lot less time.
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May 8, 2020 00:41
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and?
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May 8, 2020 00:43
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Zeta Acosta posted:wow drukmann is doing what kojima did with mgs1 and the wolfs, what a genius  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAvAIRkvZS8&t=331s
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May 8, 2020 00:43
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They watched Liveleak videos to make the violence more realistic & uncomfortable. I think it's fair to remember that lens on all their other choices, like the dogs. Does the life realistically fade out of their eyes? Is Tlou2 now True Art?
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May 8, 2020 00:43
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Stux posted:and? Gameplay should fit with whatever it is they're trying to do. I'm not going to play this for twice as long as I have to so I'm going through all the dogs and all the people with a shiv. Or I'll play on whatever the new survivor difficulty is.
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May 8, 2020 00:44
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FalconImpala posted:They watched Liveleak videos to make the violence more realistic & uncomfortable. I think it's fair to remember that lens on all their other choices, like the dogs. Does the life realistically fade out of their eyes? Is Tlou2 now True Art? i think making your animators and devs watch real gross stuff is inexcusable and i dont think anyone would disagree with that. they could just make it up and no one is going to know except people who go and watch gross liveleak stuff so who cares just make it up. but i dont think making the violence in a game uncomfortable for the player in and of itself is bad.
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May 8, 2020 00:51
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Stux posted:but i dont think making the violence in a game uncomfortable for the player in and of itself is bad. I agree with that. I think it's shallow to have violence against humans be really fun. It's also shallow to make violence as horrible as possible with no real alternatives. That's capitalizing on easy emotional manipulation, also called misery porn. Like, if this were an RPG, that would be an incentive to put points into "speech" or "stealth" or something. But you don't have a choice here, and there's no subtext other than 'violence is bad'. Which isn't just dated, it also insults the audience for... playing the game. That's why a lot of gamer bros are freaking out about "bad writing" - in other words, if they wanted to try something different, the game wouldn't respect that. This twist would work GREAT if you were in the same headspace as Ellie, and were glad to murder whatever obstacle the game put in front of you (i.e. the very, very short scene in Spec Ops), but if you're not comfortable with what's going on? You'll probably be treated the same way. This is the only oversight where Spec Ops fell on its face for some people, but now, it's the whole time. It just reminds me of Funny Games minus the point of Funny Games.
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May 8, 2020 01:15
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that isnt an oversight in spec ops and it does sound like in tlou2 completely avoiding these things through stealth is an option. we'll have to see when it comes out but them making note that you can avoid all dog encounters would seem to imply to me that you can also avoid all human encounters too given that theyre part of the same grouping.
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May 8, 2020 01:19
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Stux posted:that isnt an oversight in spec ops and it does sound like in tlou2 completely avoiding these things through stealth is an option. we'll have to see when it comes out but them making note that you can avoid all dog encounters would seem to imply to me that you can also avoid all human encounters too given that theyre part of the same grouping. the oversight in spec ops is that the whole game is generic cover shooter and the text is "war is bad haha you're dumb for doing the violence but it's all we do so shrug", spec ops is just as lame as tlou2 trying to make metacommentary on violence when doing violence on humans is basically the thing you're good at designing gameplay wise is not gonna work and never has
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May 8, 2020 01:21
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Panzeh posted:the oversight in spec ops is that the whole game is generic cover shooter and the text is "war is bad haha you're dumb for doing the violence but it's all we do so shrug", spec ops is just as lame as tlou2 lol
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May 8, 2020 01:25
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Panzeh posted:the oversight in spec ops is that the whole game is generic cover shooter and the text is "war is bad haha you're dumb for doing the violence but it's all we do so shrug", spec ops is just as lame as tlou2 Not really, even something as ancient as Monopoly is a commentary on capitalism that forces you to dick your friends over to experience it. “Make the player do the thing you want to criticize” is hardly the newest concept around.
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May 8, 2020 01:29
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Just as lame as this thing I haven't played
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May 8, 2020 01:45
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I fell for the twist in spec ops. I had tons of fun pressing the button and making things go haha boom, so I happily killed the civilians. Then I thought a lot about violence as entertainment. That was like eight years ago. Even if TLOU2 throws me a bone and has a (difficult, repetitive and frustrating) no-kill run, the conceit of the game is still crafting weapons and killing. A lot of dev effort went into the brutal way that people collapse and scream for help when they're shot. The sole motivation is Ellie's revenge quest, and the message is that Ellie's revenge quest was a bad idea. (Who saw that one coming?) That stuff doesn't go away with a 'stealth run'. It's kinda the same as saying "dont play the game then" - why did this game need to exist? There's no shortage of games in the world and Sony isn't hurting for money. That stuff would be dated & annoying by itself. But the real reason why I even care? "Your horse’s muscles flex and jiggle as it gallops. Tall grass ripples and tree bows flex with the wind. Ellie contorts her face in intense focus as she silently takes down enemies." https://kotaku.com/as-naughty-dog-crunches-on-the-last-of-us-ii-developer-1842289962 All the little hairs on Joel's eyebrows and poo poo. The fake violence came at a huge cost to real people. Years of underpaid temps working under bad conditions, long hours of crunch and burnout. Why? Kinda like laborers pulling stones on a rope to build The Sphinx, but The Sphinx is farting and giving a middle finger to the other side of the Nile. I know there's room in here for Cormac McCarthy, and a story that abuses its characters & the audience, in a setting with no hope or good things happening. But right now it comes off as poor taste.
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May 8, 2020 02:24
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Do you guys genuinely think this game is going to be bad? I mean, you can talk about how Neil Druckmann huffs his own farts or how Naughty Dog's labour practices are immoral (they are), but their output is still excellent games. Uncharted 4 was great, as was the DLC that was expanded to a full game, and it's reasonable to assume that this game is also going to be at a similar level of polish as a Sony flagship franchise. The game will probably play well, look great and the narrative will probably be better than the intentionally-reductive 4chan posts would lead you to believe. As far as doing nasty, terrible things in video games is concerned, when I replayed the original game recently, the combat was clearly intended to be unpleasant, between the intentionally bad controls, limited resources (including healing in an era of regenerating health), and long, grunting combat animations. I can't imagine they put in dog suffering in the interest of sadistic head developers or as something for the player to get excited about, except maybe the perverts at gamestop
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May 8, 2020 02:29
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I couldn't play the MP in tlou because the curb stomping and poo poo was gross. I get it in the narrative where things are bad or whatever but MP felt gratuitous and they added in more gory kills so maybe gory kills is what they care care about.
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May 8, 2020 03:00
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Man gently caress Twin Snakes. There was a fan theory going around back in the day that Twin Snakes was Otacon's fanfiction of what really happened, and honestly, its such a good explanation it might as well be canon.
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May 8, 2020 03:08
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FalconImpala posted:I fell for the twist in spec ops. I had tons of fun pressing the button and making things go haha boom, so I happily killed the civilians. Then I thought a lot about violence as entertainment. That was like eight years ago. Well, as far as how you tie together a revenge quest and not murdering everything, every indication at the moment implies that you swap from Ellie to Abby right about the time Abby is dealing with the hollow consequences of her murder and Ellie is on a full rampage streak. Which seems a somewhat reasonable way to handle the idea of Not Killing Everyone. With regards to the time spent: It absolutely sucks and people should not be underpaid or have forced crunch time to create entertainment products. It is just also the unfortunate truth that this is the current situation and it isn't exclusive to Naughty Dog. Short of boycotting any big media (which is perfectly valid as a choice if you have the strength to do so) you'll have an extremely hard time finding any movie, television show or game that isn't born on the back of people working insane hours for poo poo pay. Even boycotting is depressingly more likely to impact them and not the big names who can comfortably slide off somewhere else. The real answer is unionizing of course and that should be supported wherever possible. But otherwise you're either only playing smaller/indie things (and even indie developers are horrifyingly underpaid and abused, they just have a culture where they are told to accept it because that is how Indie Development works and just look at this 1-in-1000 success story) or finding other forms of entertainment if possible. As far as poor taste: You can't really blame them for not predicting the Coronavirus. They can delay the game further (and maybe should!) but that has a very good chance of killing their studio or at least causing irrepairable damage. And say what you want (correctly) about Naughty Dog's lovely treatment of employees but the ones who will suffer worst if that happens is those employees who dedicated five years of their life they can't get back, not the guys higher up who lose nothing for it. It's pretty much a no-win situation without the aid of a time machine.
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May 8, 2020 03:12
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All of the procedurally generated dog names rhyme with "us", and when you decapitate a dog all the enemies on the map stop and scream "No! The Last of Gus, Too!" giving you time to line up a headshot with immaculately detailed brain splatter and body spasm effects accurately modeled on the exact part of the brain you shoot. Ellie quips, "gently caress you."
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May 8, 2020 03:20
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i guess for me im ok if another game does or attempts something similar to what spec ops did because unfortunately its not like AAA games got better in the meantime, and really just got even worse about it. stuff like the modern mortal kombats to me are actually the worst cos its insanely realstic and detailed violence with no weight or anything and it weirds me out so im at a point where im like yeah ok maybe a game pointing out violence is trash, viscerally, again is due. should that come as a result of an employer abusing their staff and making them watch gross real stuff to get the fake violence realistic when no one playing it knows what realistic even is because people arent going out to find real gross stuff? no and its completely abhorrent and inexcusable, and i think its perfectly justified if that or the content that results from it is to the point where someone personally cannot play the game. it also entirely possible the game is just complete misery/torture grossness for no reason, but im willing to give some benefit of the doubt until we have more than leaks because of the first game.
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May 8, 2020 03:24
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Mae posted:Do you guys genuinely think this game is going to be bad? Mae posted:As far as doing nasty, terrible things in video games is concerned, when I replayed the original game recently, the combat was clearly intended to be unpleasant, between the intentionally bad controls,
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May 8, 2020 03:28
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If the game does poorly, it'll only hurt the temps who need a bonus, not Druckmann who'll bounce off to write the TV show. But god it should've been different from the beginning (or not existed?), and I had that suspicion from when the title was revealed. Hopefully the twists work and I'll be surprised, but whatever 'statement' its trying to make is heavily tainted by the working conditions. There's no good scenarios or winning here. We were the last of us the whole time.
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May 8, 2020 03:30
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youre saying that like its a knock on the game somehow
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May 8, 2020 03:31
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Mae posted:Do you guys genuinely think this game is going to be bad? I don't think the game is going to be bad. For me the problem is, with the state of the world right now, it seems way too dark for me in a very particular way. I could handle something happening to Joel, but right now I just cannot deal with playing a new character while the game makes me beat the poo poo out of Ellie, the kid I grew to like from the original game.
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May 8, 2020 03:33
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Mae posted:Do you guys genuinely think this game is going to be bad?
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May 8, 2020 03:36
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ImpAtom posted:Mostly I am sort of bewildered by the "a good parent is one who treats their child like an object and never actually speaks to them about serious subjects" viewpoint which is as far as I am aware the exact loving opposite of good parenting. Everyone involved in the situation is being a lovely guardian of a child because at the end of the day they decide that child has no right to know the truth about things involving their life. I feel like people here are really big on the cut and dry that "you either treat your child like an object or let them make every decision." It's possible to let a child make their own decisions and have to deal with the consequences while also feeling like they don't have the context or experience to make other ones. I don't really have a horse in this race, I'm on record as not liking TLoU in general. I just find it weird that people seem to be saying that Joel, right or wrong, deciding that Ellie couldn't make that decision for whatever reason means he'd never let her decide anything for herself. Mae posted:Do you guys genuinely think this game is going to be bad? I think the last good naughty dog game had crash bandicoot in it MeatwadIsGod posted:We have now surpassed Alien vs. Predator 2 levels of spite.  Nail Rat posted:Where is this from? Is is that a real feature the kid killing in tlou 2 Ham posted:I'd honestly rather not discuss killing kids, and making an argument that it's morally equal to killing a guard dog trained to kill humans is some truly broke-brained poo poo. I dunno. I've spent time around both dogs and children and I think I'd be more upset at the first ones dying. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 03:46 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 03:38
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https://twitter.com/phuckfas/status/1258464785525608448
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May 8, 2020 03:47
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Cuntellectual posted:It's possible to let a child make their own decisions and have to deal with the consequences while also feeling like they don't have the context or experience to make other ones. This is absolutely true. The issue here is that the decision in this case involves their own life and health, and in particular she is someone who is not a grown adult but at the age where we recognize that some decisions are in their hands or at very least they should have input on it. As a side note it is someone who has been given the responsibility and trust that comes with taking someone else's life (even if it's largely in self-defense) so arguing "I trust you to carry a gun but not to make your own decisions about your life" is extremely poor behavior. I am not saying Joel isn't understandable in why he made that decision but that still doesn't make it good behavior. It's important to note that Joel didn't lie to save her life in that moment. He lied because he A) feared the consequences of the truth and B) Wanted to make sure she would *never* make a decision he disagreed with. It was almost entirely in his own defense and for his own protection.
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May 8, 2020 03:51
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the issue with the dog killing aspect of the game isn't that you're killing virtual dogs but that it wants to make this hamfisted point by having their owners cry out their dog's name or whatever. I can practically hear the lead designer yelling "do you GET it" in my ear MGS3 did this better smh
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May 8, 2020 03:51
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Ham posted:The one that comes most to mind is the entirety of Spec Ops: The Line. The developers have spelled out what some of their points in spec ops were and people still feel like it's an attack on the player, maybe ND is right with tlou 2.
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May 8, 2020 03:53
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grieving for Gandalf posted:the issue with the dog killing aspect of the game isn't that you're killing virtual dogs but that it wants to make this hamfisted point by having their owners cry out their dog's name or whatever. I can practically hear the lead designer yelling "do you GET it" in my ear MGS3 had you walk down a literal river of corpses crying out to you where the solution was to kill yourself. I'm not sure anything can be more "DO YOU GET IT" than that. I mean to be fair Metal Gear Solid as a whole is basically this meme given flesh: 
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May 8, 2020 03:53
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Firefly military doctrine seems to revolve around getting really insanely swole and loving your doggo. Both of these things are fine in peacetime but I wonder if they'd be doing better in the war if they opted for a different approach.
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May 8, 2020 03:53
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:19 |
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also i mean, yeah the likelyhood is they would yell out the dogs name? i dont know if thats being hamfisted more than it is just literally what would 100% happen
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May 8, 2020 03:55
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