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This is Bad for Jeremy Covid.
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May 9, 2020 07:17
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ronya posted:Conversely, the historical pattern for communists is to maintain that it is the only true resistance to fascism - but when push comes to shove, what they mean is that everyone who is not a communist is a fascist. In fact, the "social fascists" are even more fascist than the people who call themselves fascists and are the true threat to the revolution They won't even support such inoffensive halfway compromises as Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders, I wouldn't say they're worse than actual fascists but unless they're all Secret Accelerationists they're just enabling the actual fash because even if they start winning elections (lol) people like Joe Biden and Kier Starmer are going to do nothing to reduce the pressures that lead to fascism's growth to any meaningful or enduring degree. And sure, during WW2 plenty of non-communists killed and died fighting the Axis, and there were people volunteering to fight Franco because they hated fascism rather than because they were communist, but as a group they aren't really ready to do much fighting before a fascist power rises and starts upsetting the apple cart. The core of anti-fascism dating right back to the 20s* has been made up of the left, be it anarchist, socialist, communist, or other. * Very cool that we're soon going to have to distinguish which 20s we mean when we talk about the rise of fascism in the 20s
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May 9, 2020 07:22
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ronya posted:fair, but this is contextual, isn't it The "soft left" not actually changing anything and keeping this in place even as London floods going into the 2020's is sure going to be a loving sight.
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May 9, 2020 07:34
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Ms Adequate posted:They won't even support such inoffensive halfway compromises as Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders, I wouldn't say they're worse than actual fascists but unless they're all Secret Accelerationists they're just enabling the actual fash because even if they start winning elections (lol) people like Joe Biden and Kier Starmer are going to do nothing to reduce the pressures that lead to fascism's growth to any meaningful or enduring degree. This is a left mythology that, again, is not widely accepted outside the left. Actually existing communism was heavily divided for many reasons and were slower, not faster, to rally to a unified anti-fascist banner than the other great houses of postwar continental politics. e.g., as I remarked in the previous month's thread ronya posted:In the period between the fall of France in mid-1940 and the German invasion of the USSR in mid-1941, the French communists found themselves in the curious position of rationalizing the conquest of France One can say after the fact that, actually, communism being late to the party was all Stalinism's fault (very common amongst eurocommunists) or actually it was the SPD-Freikorps a decade earlier wot did it (GDR favoured emphasis), but the fact remains is that German, French, and British communisms (in that order) always found themselves plenty of other enemies to fight that were far, far more important than the fascists, until well after fascist boots/bombs started falling and the reality become undeniable (the usual defence of French communism here is that its leadership became critical to the French resistance after 1941, but even that is contested, esp by narratives that emphasize the role of Gaullism - the other ideology that would come to dominate, and eventually overturn, the unstable postwar Fourth Republic) Now of course everyone wants to pat themselves on the back for fighting the Nazis more than the other groups. I don't really want to get into the mire of who-did-what - my point here is sufficient with just, "it's contested, and at a bare minimum reasonably so", and everyone from from Christian democracy movements to the frothiest Trotskyists thinks they were crucial dissidents. The left regarding itself as the REAL opposition against history's greatest monster(s) is not unique. So if we're sitting around wondering why Britain rejects the left's heroic role in the Great Struggle, well maaaaybe it's because there are genuinely different historical narratives and not endemic mendacity? Most of Britain is not leftie. So it's kind of self-reinforcing there? For some decades the UK left itself was allergic to uncritically endorsing the GDR narrative of WW2, chiefly because it was well-known to be a GDR export - e.g. the squadism question in the late 1970s UK ANL was heavily rejected on the UK left as a kind of archaic, outdated vanguardism that was unacceptable to both New Left Maoist puritans (where's the working class leadership?) and New Left countercultural anarchists (where's the leaderless structure?) alike. This was well before "brocialism" became a term of use in the lens of idpol, mind you. This framing of the anonymous left-wing antifa as the street fighter par excellence is a relatively recent recovery, it returned with the rise of alt-globalization movements after the Cold War (and especially after the Seattle anti-WTO riots)
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May 9, 2020 08:28
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ronya posted:It is nonetheless remarkable to observe just how easy rationalization is. Coming from you Ronya that is irony so thick it double as a support beam. Everything can be rationalised as "not really being about this, or that, but what I want it to mean in the present moment." ronya posted:One can say after the fact that, actually, communism being late to the party was all Stalinism's fault (very common amongst eurocommunists) or actually it was the SPD-Freikorps a decade earlier wot did it (GDR favoured emphasis), but the fact remains is that German, French, and British communisms (in that order) always found themselves plenty of other enemies to fight that were far, far more important than the fascists, until well after fascist boots/bombs started falling and the reality become undeniable Are you just going to ignore the whole Spanish Civil War "thing"? I'm not going to deny that a fair old amount of the flavours of Communism back during the 20's and 30's were certainly involved in ignoring it, but then that would involve looking at all the other idealogical lynch pins of that time and noticing that they also have blood very thickly smeared around it. Of course you don't want to get involved with "who did what" because inevitably it looks bad for you. Your whole argument is "well the left wasn't unique in opposing Facsicm" to which I refer you to what Ms Adequate actually said which was that a lot of the first people to oppose it were Socialists, anarchists etc. You do not deny that fact because, turns out, it actually happened. Instead you do what you always do, resort to verbiage to say nothing. Who here is actually endorsing the GDR narrative of WW2? Because, as Owl has said, the second world war has gone from lived fact to myth. We are trying to deal with that how to reconcile the "patriotism" we see around us that a lot of us hate because it represents a constant inability to actually acheive anything.
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May 9, 2020 09:18
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What pisses me off about this whole VE day thing is the erasure of the pacific front and the war against Japan - many media seem to just be referring this as "the end of the second world war" when that's a few months away. If you actually cared about celebrating victory over fascists we'd have another bank holiday on the 15th of August and take the opportunity to talk about the pacific front, but no it's just a bunch of brexit flavoured nationalism.
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May 9, 2020 09:18
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Nothingtoseehere posted:What pisses me off about this whole VE day thing is the erasure of the pacific front and the war against Japan - many media seem to just be referring this as "the end of the second world war" when that's a few months away. If you actually cared about celebrating victory over fascists we'd have another bank holiday on the 15th of August and take the opportunity to talk about the pacific front, but no it's just a bunch of brexit flavoured nationalism. British Malaya always has the uncomfortable point that the Allies never even reached Malaya before the Japanese surrendered. British South Asian narratives remain divided over Bose. The Free India government in exile fought with Japan, not against Japan. The Malayan narrative of the war experience is of abandonment in the face of the colour bar - evacuating the white elite and merchants but not the nonwhite elite - but memorializing this sense of loss is tricky. neither Malaysia nor Singapore today celebrate themselves as British possessions, so they don't celebrate the end of WW2 either.
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May 9, 2020 09:36
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Coohoolin posted:Fascism is the natural end result of capitalism Like gently caress it is. Capitalists will work with fascists as long as there's profit in it, but you'll note that businesses are starting to get edgy about hard Brexit and that is a strictly fascist endeavour. No; fascism is the natural end result of nationalism.
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May 9, 2020 09:48
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I love it when the nicest guy in the thread comes in and just absolutely sprays ronya's guts and brains all over the place.
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May 9, 2020 09:50
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haven't seen this posted yet https://twitter.com/MerseyHack/status/1258758842680254465?s=19 in two weeks' time we might wanna specifically check the infection rates around Grappenhall, maybe nominate the whole place for a Darwin
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May 9, 2020 09:50
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OwlFancier posted:Violently or not, I think the best hope for resisting fascism in the future is not going to be through the nation state, because at the rate we're going the next big war is just going to be half a dozen flavours of pseudofascist fighting each other. If there is hope I think it is in the rejection of the nation as a valid form of identity, whether that takes the form of armed insurrection or striking I don't know but I would certainly prefer the latter. What if conscientous objection hit a kind of critical mass? If millions of soldiers on all sides refused to get on the plane, and took the punishment for it, and in the process made the war unviable. It would come at personal cost, but I think notions of "cowardice" have changed since WW1 and each following war changed things further, with the draft becoming unthinkable in many countries. If it becomes a thing on social media, and is boosted by the celebrities people look up to. Like that Muhammad Ali quote during vietnam, etc. that could also help remove the stigma of refusing to fight. Nah who am I kidding, the future is just gonna be this: 
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May 9, 2020 09:56
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Cilla is a goon. https://twitter.com/itsmatthooper/status/1258881005513052161
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May 9, 2020 09:58
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Brendan Rodgers posted:What if conscientous objection hit a kind of critical mass? If millions of soldiers on all sides refused to get on the plane, and took the punishment for it, and in the process made the war unviable. It would come at personal cost, but I think notions of "cowardice" have changed since WW1 and each following war changed things further, with the draft becoming unthinkable in many countries. 
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May 9, 2020 10:02
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StarkingBarfish posted:Cilla is a goon. yeah this is astonishingly UKMT
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May 9, 2020 10:07
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Jedit posted:Like gently caress it is. Capitalists will work with fascists as long as there's profit in it, but you'll note that businesses are starting to get edgy about hard Brexit and that is a strictly fascist endeavour. Businesses will conform themselves to whichever political system allows them to continue to exist. Facism is an end point to Capitalism as it currently exists because it functional leads to the welding together of State and corporate power. I am not even sure on that point to be honest. Fascism always seems to be less concerned with "nations" but with "bloodlines". Would that be an unfair statement to make do you think?
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May 9, 2020 10:09
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I have oxo cubes but I can't test this sinful recipe because I don't have a chocolate orange
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May 9, 2020 10:13
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Owl's militant late-night idealism continues to be fascinating, I see.
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May 9, 2020 10:13
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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https://twitter.com/uklabour/status/1259015246972203008?s=21 Glad to see a continuation of Corbynism by Labour, marketing their policies as more radical than they actually are
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May 9, 2020 10:22
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https://twitter.com/SolHughesWriter/status/1259044413021487104?s=19
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May 9, 2020 10:22
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whats a ronya whats their deal
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May 9, 2020 10:25
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gh0stpinballa posted:whats a ronya whats their deal Ronya is a very smart and capable individual who likes to puncture our own mythology about our place in history. This can sometimes be a very important part of growth, and I do fear that we are often very quick to get angry about other people criticising us, even when they are correct. They are also sometimes a bit wordy and answer the letter of questions as opposed to the spirit of them. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 10:39 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 10:30
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gh0stpinballa posted:whats a ronya whats their deal actual ppe graduate and threads most beloved dissent, not legally allowed to post nice things about uk politicians, excellent at communicating through simpsons meme, never does so
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May 9, 2020 10:41
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Brendan Rodgers posted:What if conscientous objection hit a kind of critical mass? If millions of soldiers on all sides refused to get on the plane, and took the punishment for it, and in the process made the war unviable. It would come at personal cost, but I think notions of "cowardice" have changed since WW1 and each following war changed things further, with the draft becoming unthinkable in many countries. There will still be more than enough people willing to shoot "cowards" to stop this becoming likely within our lifetime. Besides, warfare has changed so completely in the last 50 years that any war that would actually need the sort of "warm body with a rifle" numbers that would make conscription an issue would be pretty much a world-ender before the first conchies were even put on trial.
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May 9, 2020 11:14
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Jedit posted:Like gently caress it is. Capitalists will work with fascists as long as there's profit in it, but you'll note that businesses are starting to get edgy about hard Brexit and that is a strictly fascist endeavour. quote:Brilliant man though he was in so many respects, Smuts had shown a lack of understanding of the problems and conflicting interests of an industrialising society in which local whites and immigrants struggled for positions, and both feared competition from other races. Early in his career Smuts had taken the decision that to restore law and order and bring back stability must come first, but this approach cost him dearly in the next elections. By 1924, JBM Hertzog’s National Party had grown in strength and had formed a pact with English-speaking Labourites. When the Pact government defeated Smuts and his South Africa Party, Hertzog became Prime Minister and Smuts the leader of the opposition. Hertzog’s Afrikaner nationalists and the English-speaking Labourites were strange bedfellows, but they achieved their aim, and job reservation for whites continued on the mines. Old Labour will tolerate fascism over soft conservatism. StarkingBarfish posted:Cilla is a goon. goddamnedtwisto posted:There will still be more than enough people willing to shoot "cowards" to stop this becoming likely within our lifetime.
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May 9, 2020 11:37
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gh0stpinballa posted:whats a ronya whats their deal It’s what happens when a Markov chain generator gets a PPE from Oxford
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May 9, 2020 12:03
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https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1259038317670260739/photo/1 Would be nice to see Johnson quoted at every occasion in this verbatim fashion. Puts Chris Roberts to shame.
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May 9, 2020 12:08
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The Times has really decided they want Gove in charge, haven't they.
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May 9, 2020 12:16
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The opposition doing an increasingly formidable job of allowing journalists to be comfortable enough to play out internal Tory feuds without being in any danger of getting in the way.
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May 9, 2020 12:16
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HJB posted:The opposition doing an increasingly formidable job of allowing journalists to be comfortable enough to play out internal Tory feuds without being in any danger of getting in the way. The anti-Tory sentiment you got on TV in the mid-late 90s and early 2000s was definitely in part because the media and middle classes knew they had nothing to fear from New Labour.
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May 9, 2020 12:33
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Mourning Due posted:Sorry for the feels, but: if you have a loved one who is in any way in the danger zone for this thing, and you've not told them everything you'd want them to know: take some time today to write them or call them and let them know. A few pages back now, but my condolences on your loss. Even if you (as in a general you) think you have nothing to say, do it anyway.
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May 9, 2020 12:38
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75th VE Day chat: I stayed totally offline all day yesterday and as I live in a quiet cul de sac in a block of flats full of much older than me Olds, there weren't any obvious signs round here. (But when I went on FB today for the first time in 2 days it was full of various family and friends posting photos of their homes decked out in union jacks) While I am of the opinion this anniversary was cranked up to boost jingoism and 'blitz spirit' - there was a touch of it on the 50th anniversary. The bank holiday was shifted then too to the 8th May. But that was 1995 when I guess most posters itt were still at primary school or even still just a twinkle in someones' eyes, and might not remember.
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May 9, 2020 12:43
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Fascism in its 20th century form, I.e what people usually mean when they use the word, emerges directly as a muscle and militant enforcer of capitalism. As strikebreakers, as political enforcers. Mussolini used his speeches about the Ur nation and the deep tradition of the italian character to get people to buy Fiats. The Nazi's economic program in the 30s contains the first use of the term "privatisation". Fascism comes about as a deliberate formulation of capitalism trying to protect itself from its internal contradictions, or simply to expand its power, and fascism manages to succeed with the general public because the public is made malleable by the social effects of inherently contradictory capitalism (eg the drive to lower wages but increase consumption). Sure there's a level of tension between the public and the leadership, or even the individual leadership of a fascist movement and some of the representatives of capital the movement is meant to serve, but those are situational anomalies in part explained by the inherently inconsistent nature of both capitalism and by necessity the militant bodies that emerge to fight for it. Simply finding one instance where certain capitalists (and I say certain because remember Rees Mogg and the disaster people are making bank) are unhappy with Brexit, a clearly fascist project, is about is insightful as saying "some white men get murdered by the police, so the police clearly isn't inherently violently racist".
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May 9, 2020 12:46
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I found a picture of the graffiti I mentioned yesterday: My favourite comments to come out of the uproar are "Just jealous they lost 75 years ago." and "On today of all days". Some sensible people did suggest it was done by English people just to stir up poo poo, but then it was pointed out the spelling was correct which counts out the natives of the town.
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May 9, 2020 12:53
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The smiley face at the end makes it look like it was written by someone’s 58 year old aunt.
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May 9, 2020 13:01
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Dead Goon posted:I found a picture of the graffiti I mentioned yesterday: Where is this?
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May 9, 2020 13:01
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All these pictures of mass gatherings to celebrate really make me appreciate living in Newcastle more where I didn't see any of that poo poo
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May 9, 2020 13:03
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:While I am of the opinion this anniversary was cranked up to boost jingoism and 'blitz spirit' - there was a touch of it on the 50th anniversary. The bank holiday was shifted then too to the 8th May. But that was 1995 when I guess most posters itt were still at primary school or even still just a twinkle in someones' eyes, and might not remember. Coohoolin posted:Brexit, a clearly fascist project
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May 9, 2020 13:03
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Dead Goon posted:I found a picture of the graffiti I mentioned yesterday: I'm assuming this is somewhere in Wales? Edit: Nope. There are signs up all over the place around me, generally of the 'tourists go home' variety. There has been some actual graffiti like this on holiday homes as well. For years, most of the graffiti would be in Welsh, but a few years ago they realised it was pointless as most English reading it would just assume it was an advert for the local country show. Soylent Yellow fucked around with this message at 13:27 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 13:04
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The English cunts
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May 9, 2020 13:04
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Guavanaut posted:I remember the bank holiday being shifted, and there was a commemorative 50p and the standard WW2 movies on TV. There wasn't as much flags and bunting and backyard barbecues everywhere though, at least where I was. Probably because it wasn't being used as a distraction as much. It was also 25 years closer to the event, therwe were significantly more people alive who actually remembered it then. I learned about it in primary school, very much with a 'WW2 was a tragedy, this is the day we commemorate it ending' flavour rather than a ra ra jingoism one. But then, my older teachers at the time were either born when rationing was still happening, or very shortly afterwards. And again, that's very much not true any more. 25 years of remove makes the whole event much less real, and much more myth.
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May 9, 2020 13:07
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