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oliwan posted:Japan is also responsible for anime op, let's not emulate them too much Nice deflection, sucks to admit others are right ey?
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May 8, 2020 23:21
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Smirr posted:They're obviously not yet over, but there won't be another lockdown like this no matter what happens, and the measures will be lightened no matter what happens. That's all I'm saying. quote:"Einerseits ist es wichtig, die weitere Ausbreitung des Virus zu verhindern, andererseits können wir unserer Wirtschaft, unserer Gastronomie keine weiteren Blockaden aufbürden." Ziel sei es, das der Kreis sich soweit als möglich an der für nächste Woche angekündigten Thüringer Verordnung orientiere. "Denn es macht in meinen Augen wenig Sinn bei uns alles zu verbieten, was wenige Kilometer weiter möglich ist", so die CDU-Politikerin. But you can try to be a little less fatalistic, a little less oh-the-world-is-over-now just to keep your own sanity, allow yourself that. I for one am super proud of my mom and grandma for holding out so long, and I won't lambast them for visiting just each other to not lose their loving minds. We're inviting the in-laws over on Sunday who we could have visited all this time but chose not to, and that sucked but we held out, but we cannot, absolutely cannot keep a high ground of "everyone is visiting family members now that the Lockerung happens but WE will stay RESPONSIBLE and just not see them". That's both from an emotional perspective AND from a logical one, because if everyone else is visiting family, then we have zero reason not to as well, because we kept voluntary isolation up for the last month and they did too, so we're safe from each other, and therefore if another outbreak happens, it's not gonna be our fault.
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May 8, 2020 23:33
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Simply Simon posted:Yeah of course they do, I do too. I'm getting more and more bewildered as to what most of you seem to be expecting from the general populace. Do you really think everyone will think "oh it's only mandatory in busses and shops, but it is obviously more sensible to keep them on always so I'll do it just in case"? If you are going on a shopping trip through the crowded Innenstadt where a Mindestabstand of 1.5m is not possible and only putting on your mask the second you enter a shop, you may be following the letter of the law, but not the spirit. Just wear the mask as as long as close contact with other people is unavoidable. It's not a big ask (unless you have severe asthma or something) unlike most of the other restrictions that we are still facing, and it's also the one measure that people can easily keep up for prolonged periods of time. Just wear your mask so we can lift the far more impactful restrictions as soon as possible. I don't really know how the rules should be modified to include every crowded place instead of just shops or busses without being up to interpretation. You obviously don't need to wear a mask while hiking or chilling alone in a park, so a general rule to wear a mask outside is dumb. The current situation leads to people waiting in line for ice cream with 0.5m distance at best, not wearing a mask, putting on the mask for 30s to get their ice cream, pulling it off again as they exit while trying to maneuver between all the other people waiting. I don't disagree with the rest of the post. The Kontaktbeschränkungen will have to get lifted soon. People who live alone cannot be asked to minimize their social contacts for such a long period of time. I think we should be realistic about what happens if we get a second wave though. I doubt that we will have another lockdown like this anytime soon. The gesellschaftliche Akzeptanz for such a huge restriction on everyday life is rapidly diminishing and will be much lower if we have to do it again. Germany having a reasonably good response and us still having a ton of free hospital beds will make it very hard to justify reinstating these draconian measures once they are lifted, even if our numbers go up again.
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May 8, 2020 23:57
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Simply Simon posted:Is it inconceivable for you that we allow people to meet some family members, to allow them a little time to breathe and relax before everyone goes super crazy, and then say "oh okay there's too many new infections, second lockdown it is"?
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May 9, 2020 00:07
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To expand a little on "mask goes off immediately": I live in Ulm which is pretty small compared to most other cities, and in a Wohngebiet at that. If I leave the REWE and doff the mask, I'll meet two other people on the way home maybe. It's very quiet outside, little less so now that playgrounds are open again. Obviously the situation in big cities is different and I'd probably not remove my mask between shop and home there. As to why I remove it: because it's annoying, duh. Mithaldu posted:What is your position? Do you want this to be the procedure that happens in the next few weeks? Or would you prefer to see another course of action? Please clarify. Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 00:10 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 00:07
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The situation you describe is reasonable. But also remember that you wrote a meltdown in response at someone grumping at people doffing their masks in described crowded situations. (And also assigned them a position of surprise without even asking if they were.) As for your prescription: So you actually want restrictions to be reduced until a second wave occurs. Even if there isn't a second wave, it will increase the total amount of cases compared to keeping restrictions. Yeah, won't be the end of the world. Germany only had 7000 deaths, that's really very neglible overall. Be aware tho that your prescription will kill medical personnel whose lives would be spared if the restrictions were kept, whether that is what you intend, or not. It's a simple and basic fact.
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May 9, 2020 00:21
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Simply Simon posted:But why are you saying this? Is it inconceivable for you that we allow people to meet some family members, to allow them a little time to breathe and relax before everyone goes super crazy, and then say "oh okay there's too many new infections, second lockdown it is"? I am saying this because there's already two Landkreise above the arbitrary cutoff for more lockdown/less easing, and both of them are just ignoring it. It is, in fact, inconceivable to me that people will voluntarily go "second lockdown it is". It's already not happening. There will not be a second lockdown, because there are two places in Germany that, by the new rules, should have one and yet don't have one. I don't know how I can state this any more clearly. Also, you last paragraph is one of the worst things I've ever read. 1) If everyone else is visiting family, it does not follow that you should visit family as well. This is like "friends jump off a bridge 101" and it embarrasses me to have to type it out. 2) Unless you OR your in-laws didn't go grocery shopping within the last month, you didn't isolate to the point that you're safe from each other
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May 9, 2020 00:24
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I pretty much agree with everything Simon said today. (Except the part where it is absolutely safe to visit their in-laws.) Also I live on top of a very steep hill and only pass like 2 people on the other side of the street when I walk to my local Edeka. Of course I take off that mask when I leave that store. The idea that someone would blame me for following the letter l of the law here is ridiculous, since those masks are only for right spaces where you can't distance. I will never wear a mask while jogging either, since it's not necessary or helpful here. Maybe my mask from the apothecary is just shut, but I have legitimate trouble breathing with it and try to rush out of the store as fast as possible because of that. Smirr, do you really think that those landkreise will ignore the cutoffpoint indefinitely? And I am really sure that at some point it would be back on Länderebene. That being said, the politicians who ignore those rules are selfish jerks. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 00:41 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 00:34
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I see 100s of people when I walk to the local Edeka, and maybe 1 in 20 has a mask on. probably less.
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May 9, 2020 00:42
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oliwan posted:I see 100s of people when I walk to the local Edeka, and maybe 1 in 20 has a mask on. probably less. That's just Berlin being stupid. Here there's a strict limit of 40 people. everyone has to have a shopping cart so that is enforced and I guess these things help keep distance. Tgise are freshly sterylized. Literally everyone wears masks and people recognize the distance markers at the registers.
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May 9, 2020 00:48
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cant cook creole bream posted:Also I live on top of a very steep hill and only pass like 2 people on the other side of the street when I walk to my local Edeka. Of course I take off that mask when I leave that store. The idea that someone would blame me for following the letter l of the law here is ridiculous, since those masks are only for right spaces where you can't distance. I will never wear a mask while jogging either, since it's not necessary or helpful here. Maybe my mask from the apothecary is just shut, but I have legitimate trouble breathing with it and try to rush out of the store as fast as possible because of that. Eezee posted:People are immediately ripping off their mask as they step out of the store or bus. It doesn't matter that the narrow sidewalks make it completely impossible to properly follow Mindestabstand.
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May 9, 2020 00:48
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cant cook creole bream posted:That's just Berlin being stupid. Everyone also wears a mask inside the Edeka, here, op.
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May 9, 2020 00:51
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oliwan posted:Everyone also wears a mask inside the Edeka, here, op. Ah okay, I've read that differently. You see 100s of people on the way to the edeka not during the whole trip, or inside. Got it.
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May 9, 2020 00:57
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Flattening the curve via lockdowns was never primarily about preventing infections for their own sake but in order to prepare (or, in the heavily infected countries, to stabilize) the healthcare infrastructure. Now that the political will to stall infections this way is exhausted, we have to see if the preparation was enough. And better hope that we are not getting a heavy second wave, because in that case we might not respon fast enough. That being said, on an individual level a continued degree of social distancing would still be advisable if you want to protect yourself or want to avoid infecting others. Though I imagine it will get harder.and harder to distance once the official limits are reduced.
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May 9, 2020 01:49
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Randler posted:Flattening the curve via lockdowns was never primarily about preventing infections for their own sake but in order to prepare (or, in the heavily infected countries, to stabilize) the healthcare infrastructure. Yeah, no individual infection matters. I don't care if Hans gets sick. The important part is who else he gets sick and how him and his victims threaten the medical system and kill doctors and nurses.
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May 9, 2020 04:13
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The fight against capitalism has dropped on steam as of yesterday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6fqavi8Too (paying a small capitalist fee to play may be required)
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May 9, 2020 04:52
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Duzzy Funlop posted:The fight against capitalism has dropped on steam as of yesterday. looks like poo poo op, boring as gently caress gameplay, only good for the memes
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May 9, 2020 06:47
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cant cook creole bream posted:
I am not optimistic. Ignoring the cutoff is evidently fine when there's only two Landkreise that are doing so, with plenty of spotlight. When there's more, there will be even less of an incentive. The Länder might step in, yes, but only when it's already been too late a couple of times over.
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May 9, 2020 07:10
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We will continue working from home for a few more weeks. After that the Leiters can decide who needs to come into office. We might be expected to switch back to hosting physical events. But with the restrictions in Kraft it‘s not economical to rent a large room and to only use 20% of its capacity. It sounds awful, but I am hoping the infections will increase enough to ensure that we stay in our current mode for a few more weeks as I dread the responsibility to organise events. We manage pretty well, but there seems some irrational pressure to dreh zurück die Uhren.
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May 9, 2020 07:32
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it's funny how everybody says we won't go back to normal and yet we are doing exactly that. The only time we can have back our normal is when either 100% of us are reliably vaccinated or the disease is fully exterminated which both isn't likely to happen in less than a years time.
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May 9, 2020 07:51
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Hopper posted:it's funny how everybody says we won't go back to normal and yet we are doing exactly that. The only time we can have back our normal is when either 100% of us are reliably vaccinated or the disease is fully exterminated which both isn't likely to happen in less than a years time. normal in this case was "prevent the spread", we won't go back to that now people got the taste of ignorance meanwhile my work starts looking like a loving flughafen runway with designated lines and arrows and poo poo IN A loving BÜRO ENVIRONMENT
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May 9, 2020 07:58
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Yeah, we are in completely uncharted waters again. There is no way to know if the total collapse of the healthcare system and mass graves gonna be enough for people to accept a second lockdown(probably not). We left a safe and predictable situation for a bull ride through a knife factory. All I know is that there is gonna be a lot of money in selling books with titles like "Verraten & Verkauft" and couchsurfing between öffentlich rechtliche talk shows talking about how we sold out the lives of x people for a couple of bucks and the moral decay of western society(lol). e: in fact, I would recommend every goon with author powers to poo poo one of these verraten and verkauft books out now, leave the numbers blank and keep it in reserve for the right time. The first one on the market is gonna make some decent money GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 08:34 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 08:30
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I have to agree with Simon too. I am not sure in which claustrophobic, overcrowded hell holes some of you seem to live, but I live in one of the bigger cities in Germany (well, top ten, anyway) and the streets are really really empty right now. I had to bring my car to inspection this week and while enjoying the one hour walks back home and to the Werkstatt I have met less people on the street than I can count on one single hand. Also went to two different malls this week with my GF and even inside of them everything was so empty that you had enough space for very comfortable social distancing and being safe even without a mask. Still, everybody was wearing them, and I fully support that. Some of your expectations and/or experiences seem to be crassly different than mine and I have no idea who is wrong on this or if we are all right. Have to agree with it is too soon to get rid of the restrictions, though. That poo poo seems stupid.
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May 9, 2020 09:06
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Hopper posted:it's funny how everybody says we won't go back to normal and yet we are doing exactly that. The only time we can have back our normal is when either 100% of us are reliably vaccinated or the disease is fully exterminated which both isn't likely to happen in less than a years time. Well, third option is like 70%+ of us being infected and toughing it out. If we are being very pragmatic, this would be the quickest way through this. This would mean the highest death toll, of course.
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May 9, 2020 09:10
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Buuut I will happily wait till secret world government provided mind control juice is ready, and have that shot into me, because I don't really think I was all that lucky when the immune systems were handed out and would prefer to not get sick.
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May 9, 2020 09:13
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I think as long as certain things keep locked down it might go better than we think. If you take out: -large public events (especially indoors) such as concerts, football matches, etc -gyms and other indoor sports stuff -clubs -choirs for let's say half a year then people will probably accept that and it will slow down the potential spread quite a lot. Especially if they also put in some rules about what's allowed in bars/cafes/restaurants and keep the rules about wearing masks + distancing. Tbh the best case solution of squashing this poo poo early with a very strict lockdown has been squandered so now every option either sucks or isn't 'acceptable'.
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May 9, 2020 09:21
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I live in the city center by the river so I literally can't step out my front door without running into hundreds of people out for a stroll. I just try to choose times of day and routes that aren't quite as crowded. When I go to the shops I leave the mask on the whole time, because I don't want to touch my face with my contaminated hands. I don't plan to set foot in the office or a hairdresser for the next couple of weeks.elbkaida posted:I think as long as certain things keep locked down it might go better than we think. If you take out: I think the data from Sweden shows that a mild lockdown plus people being careful is enough to avoid the scenes from Bergamo and New York. I don't think we can eradicate the disease in Europe, so "spreads, but not too much" is about the best we can hope for. I guess there's a wildcard chance that Sweden-style policies and summer weather might bring the numbers low enough that we can start to track & trace. So I'm with Simon here, people following the letter of the law is already pretty good and will probably be enough, even though more extreme measures would make the numbers go down even harder.
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May 9, 2020 10:15
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Tarquinn posted:Well, third option is like 70%+ of us being infected and toughing it out. If we are being very pragmatic, this would be the quickest way through this. This would mean the highest death toll, of course. I wouldn't call this "pragmatic". Pragmatic would be if we look at the available evidence from past pandemics and siehe da, nations hit by the Spanish Flu who decided to "toughen it out" got hit worse and took longer to recover. But your post is right if you replace "very pragmatic" with "very stupid"
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May 9, 2020 10:36
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I just went shopping and out square here has a read and a Wochenmarkt right in front of it. People come out of rewe, take to their masks and then mingle across the market with glorious distances of up to 50 cm in between them without masks. None but I e market stall had the personnel wearing masks either. People real clever. Also: Following the letter of the law is a lovely practice. Tax dodging, Briefkastenfirmen and all manner of shady business practices and other negative things that are in a so called "grey areas" are the result following the letter of the law.
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May 9, 2020 10:41
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Guten Morgen alle miteinander First of all, you were right, our in-laws and we are not "safe", that was absolutely the wrong word. We are aware that every contact is a risk, and we have thought about this for literal weeks, but eventually decided that we would brave a few hours on Sunday, because a) we're as safe as can be all things considered, and b) we're still going to be careful even during the visit. Now, for other points. I got this weird Unterton in some posts (especially from Mithaldu's first question yesterday which took me a while to mull over) that it reads like I'm here arguing for full opening of everything and "it's been enough" or whatever. I'm not actually arguing for anything, except to calm the gently caress down. What I was talking about specifically were "Lockerung" that are already in place, specifically that Bavaria now allows visits of family members and therefore mixing of two households (and nothing more). This is a lot more than was allowed before, but it's a far cry from saying the problem is over. It will probably lead to a wave of new infections, but it's not going to cause complete Durchseuchung in two weeks. Big gatherings are still off the table, Wirthäuser are still closed, you keep having Maskenpflicht indoors and so on. Nobody is arguing against that, most especially not me. What I'm saying is that this tiny amount of Lockerung is absolutely cool and good right now because otherwise people would snap and start braking the letter and not just the spirit of the law. You cannot keep literally everybody in almost-quarantine for months. It is, and I cannot repeat this enough, an insanely good sign that should give hope to everybody that we still have a strong and sensible society, that people have been following the restrictions pretty well for so long. If this message constitutes a "meltdown" then so be it, but gently caress you specifically Mithaldu for condescend-posting like that again.
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May 9, 2020 10:56
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This thread does have pretty strong "if you're not 100% agreeing with me you must be 100% on the opposite side" energy sometimes. Didn't start with the corona crisis either. Along with the rest of the internet, sure, but I'm not on the rest of the internet. Maybe we shouldn't have banned GC and Riso. If we don't get a regular dose of perspective on what real assholes are like we start to turn on each other.
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May 9, 2020 11:07
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Libluini posted:I wouldn't call this "pragmatic". Pragmatic would be if we look at the available evidence from past pandemics and siehe da, nations hit by the Spanish Flu who decided to "toughen it out" got hit worse and took longer to recover. But your post is right if you replace "very pragmatic" with "very stupid" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z0gnXgK8Do&t=33s Tarquinn fucked around with this message at 11:18 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 11:07
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My Lovely Horse posted:Maybe we shouldn't have banned GC and Riso. If we don't get a regular dose of perspective on what real assholes are like we start to turn on each other. EXTREMELY cursed monkey paw energy
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May 9, 2020 11:10
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I think that we are opening up again just a little too soon, because we probably would have only needed a few more weeks of strict lockdown before we could have switched to testing and tracing infections. I'm glad we still have Merkel though, because if she weren't around and an idiot like Laschet were Kanzler, we would have opened up our precious Wirtschaft even sooner. This forum likes to poo poo on STEMlords etc. (for sometimes justified reasons) but I think it certainly helps in this situation that she has a background in science. BTW, I absolutely hate how the crisis means that Söder will most likely be our next Kanzler. He acts as if he's the one doing more than other Ministerpräsidenten to contain this thing, which is true to an extent but also mostly for show, otherwise he wouldn't do poo poo like supporting Bundesliga starting again.
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May 9, 2020 11:22
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KonvexKonkav posted:BTW, I absolutely hate how the crisis means that Söder will most likely be our next Kanzler. He acts as if he's the one doing more than other Ministerpräsidenten to contain this thing, which is true to an extent but also mostly for show, otherwise he wouldn't do poo poo like supporting Bundesliga starting again. Söder is very successful at distracting people from the fact that Bavaria is the hotspot of the pandemic and its original lack of response very likely enabled a faster spread across Germany. (Not the first time a virus resulting in a lot of dead being spread due to a Bavarian government, mind.)
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May 9, 2020 11:34
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Simply Simon posted:You cannot keep literally everybody in almost-quarantine for months. Of course we can. People live under much more difficult restrictions for much longer periods during war times. We are just not willing to do it to only save a couple ten thousand lives. And that's ok, I guess. I just find it's pretty lovely for people to pretend otherwise. We are giving the souls to moloch to sustain our material and social lifestyle, no need to talk around the hot porridge.
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May 9, 2020 11:51
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There are about 3000 deaths in traffic in germany every year, I wonder why we don't just cancel traffic, seeing as we could? 
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May 9, 2020 12:04
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GABA ghoul posted:We are giving the souls to moloch to sustain our material and social lifestyle, no need to talk around the hot porridge. To be fair, we do that all the time anyway. It’s just that when there is no pandemic, death and suffering are not immediately visible to us.
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May 9, 2020 12:08
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oliwan posted:I wonder why we don't just cancel traffic, seeing as we could? Weird how the "We are giving the souls to moloch to sustain our material and social lifestyle, no need to talk around the hot porridge." post just raises additional questions already answered by that post.
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May 9, 2020 12:08
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May 9, 2020 12:14
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