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thespaceinvader posted:25 years of remove makes the whole event much less real, and much more myth. Goes back to my "about the year 2000" problem, where 1995 doesn't seem that long ago, but also it's the difference between my WW2 navy granda being 76 and "I keep telling you, he's 101 years old and he's dead". And therefore the difference between people who fought in the war being general grandparents milling around, and a few exceptional very old folks. As mentioned before, just wait until the last of them go, and it'll be miffic with extra miff. Bobstar fucked around with this message at 13:23 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 13:21
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Josef bugman posted:The Times has really decided they want Gove in charge, haven't they. Going back a page, history proved that the way to defeat a fascist nation is through total war: the annihilation of its military forces and the destruction of its entire industrial base, followed by the trial and execution of everyone culpably involved in its organisation. This, er, may have some unfortunate consequences for the UK (and US) at some point in the future.
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May 9, 2020 13:27
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The best way to defeat fascism would be to have properly armed the anarchists in Spain.
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May 9, 2020 13:32
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Bobstar posted:I had to look up mawkish because it looked like it might have an interesting etymology, and I was right: This got me interested because in modern Finnish mato stands for worm. Apparently the basis is in old Indo-Aryan matsa which then was taken into Finnish languages and delivered from there to Proto-Germanic.
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May 9, 2020 13:32
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Guavanaut posted:Which is pretty funny because the EU is moving more obviously in the direction of evoking an Evolaian 'spiritual Europe' so that they can keep their Polish and Hungarian actual fascist buds on side. Given the multiple nations within the EU and the various political paths everyone's on I think it's fair to draw distinctions between Brexit and 'leaving the EU' where Brexit means Brexit (My god, at last an answer!) and leaving the EU doesn't inherently mean the same.
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May 9, 2020 13:35
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Josef bugman posted:Are you just going to ignore the whole Spanish Civil War "thing"? I'm not going to deny that a fair old amount of the flavours of Communism back during the 20's and 30's were certainly involved in ignoring it, but then that would involve looking at all the other idealogical lynch pins of that time and noticing that they also have blood very thickly smeared around it. Well, what is the supposed "thing" with the Spanish civil war? Here is a glib narrative: the left tent wins narrowly in 1931. Divided and fractious, they fail to completely expel their bitter enemy, which is at the time not fascism but clericalism and latifundias. What land reform they can pass is only sporadically enforced, often only through political direct action to accompany statute. The radicals boycott the 1933 elections in disgust and the right wins narrowly. Divided and fractious, they cannot legitimately undo the left's legislative achievements - the left might have won without the boycott, after all - and they have no new programme save reaction. They have the legislative numbers to undo the left's reforms - but doing so normalizes illegitimacy. With parliamentary stamp they endorse reversal of land reform via statute - that is, via state violence... The socialists and anarchist leverage their protest infrastructure to embrace extraparliamentary violence to resist, including an attempted armed uprising in 1934. This briefly stymies the right's gains on the ground, but normalizes paramilitarization. When the left tent wins narrowly again in 1936, political violence is now endemic. Open beatings or assassination of each other's political figures is now routine. The left, even though nominally in government, are unable to enforce order or restrain its champions, and whether it would want to do so is questionable anyway. At this point, nonetheless, peace could have prevailed - the communists could only gain relevance in the left tent by being vastly overrepresented in coalition lists; the Falangists and other ultraconservatives likewise only gained tiny fractions, not even gaining any seats. In both tents the center-left and center-right dominated support. But the military - seizing on widespread fear of assassinations and the deeply regional skew of support, stage a coup. The civilian government perceives that it cannot maintain the loyalty of sufficient military forces to triumph - and responds by distributing light arms to civilians. The rest you know. At what point in this spiral does one point and say: this was a good idea? The conviction on the left that the clerics were a permanent fifth column that would undermine all of their achievements was never plausible. The coup came from the army, in the end, not the street, and certainly not the clerics or Carlist monarchists; the chief tormentor of the left would be General Emilio Mola, a secularist small-r republican. The right certainly slaughtered far more people than the left, even if the left started mass killings first. And the terrible irony, of course, is that for all the desperate terror and paranoia and struggle, Spain would arrive at the same societal destination. In 1940, 1942, and 1948 the Francoist government passes more and more laws protecting tenant farmers (but not, notably, from eviction), as mechanized agriculture renders plantation society more and more obsolete, and predictably by the 1960s the proportion of land farmed by tenant farmers has collapsed, the proportion of land now directly farmed has now become the majority, and the population share directly employed in agriculture dropped from half at the end of the war to less than a fifth by the time Franco dies. re: opposing fascism. I think events broadly look bad for the left narrative, FWIW. Not terminally so, perhaps, but not great. As I emphasized, not only has the left not been unique in opposing fascism, many times it actively supported collaborating with fascists as long as it feels that the instability will destroy the liberals, social democrats, Christian democrats, etc. first. It is too easy for the left to concoct ideological explanations that actually all of these other groups are the real enemies. In fact, it did so during those times. Even in pre-war Spain it went after the clerics first, and was then astonished to find that it was driving vast numbers of Catholics into the welcoming arms of the right. Tip: 'salami tactics' only work after all the opposition have been crushed. Anarchists can't blame the Stalinists for that one. I think history has validated the liberal interpretation that in liberal societies, the fascists have street fighters because the communists have street fighters, and vice versa. The most effective anti-fascist measures are the same measures that punish radical politics everywhere: restrictions on organisational form and funding. The sporadic outbursts that still occur rise and fall with the left response, and antifascist groups know it too. As recently and as familiarly as the 1990s, in the UK: quote:Anti-fascists had, the BNP [British National Party] believed, scored a spectacular own goal when they had attacked the party's bookshop in Welling, in South East London, in October 1993, provoking a riot between anti-fascists and the police... the BNP emerged from the episode relatively untarnished because, on the face of it, the BNP had acted with restraint. 'The reason for abandoning confrontational street politics was because it hindered our political progress... and was the only thing holding our extreme opponents together' ([National Front's house journal] Spearhead, no. 346, December 1997). ronya fucked around with this message at 13:46 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 13:40
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Jippa posted:Where is this? Wisbech, Cambridgeshire.
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May 9, 2020 13:41
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Guavanaut posted:The best way to defeat fascism would be to have properly armed the anarchists in Spain. Or to have not armed the Spanish communist party
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May 9, 2020 13:47
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:While I am of the opinion this anniversary was cranked up to boost jingoism and 'blitz spirit' - there was a touch of it on the 50th anniversary. The bank holiday was shifted then too to the 8th May. But that was 1995 when I guess most posters itt were still at primary school or even still just a twinkle in someones' eyes, and might not remember. There was a parade through my village. My main memory of it is that there was a fancy dress contest for kids and my mum decided to dress my sister up as a walking tin of spam. The costume meant she couldn't walk properly so there was a random spam person chasing after the end of the parade. The old people thought it was hilarious. Kinda feels like you couldn't do that now that the event isn't a bunch of people who lived through the war standing around reminiscing. I'm imagining a street of people soberly saluting the spam in remembrance of the Great Sacrifice made by our porcine allies.
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May 9, 2020 13:50
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namesake posted:Given the multiple nations within the EU and the various political paths everyone's on I think it's fair to draw distinctions between Brexit and 'leaving the EU' where Brexit means Brexit (My god, at last an answer!) and leaving the EU doesn't inherently mean the same. That its enemy is increasingly paying lip service to Fortress Europe eurocentric white exceptionalism just makes it a case of fash on fash violence.
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May 9, 2020 13:50
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Continuity RCP posted:Or to have not armed the Spanish communist party ¿Porque no los dos? Ronya posted:I think history has validated the liberal interpretation that in liberal societies, the fascists have street fighters because the communists have street fighters, and vice versa Oh my god you are the worst. At least you seem to have moved on from your old theory of "actually everyone is a liberal" Man, the stunning revelation that Labour's bold new housing policy being come up with in consultation with a loving landlords association rather than any renter rights groups is such a perfect example of why Keir & co are loving trash.
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May 9, 2020 13:52
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Labour consulted the loving Landlord association for this bullshit debt accumulation policy https://twitter.com/BeadleBen/status/1255846472047869952
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May 9, 2020 13:58
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Remember how 6 months ago Labour wouldn't have let landlords shape housing policy? Sigh.
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May 9, 2020 13:59
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Ronya quoting themselves quoting a big chunk of untranslated French text which the significant majority of us probably can’t even read might be the most Ronya thing ever.
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May 9, 2020 14:00
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Days like VE Day make me glad my partner's Irish so she's possibly even more disgusted by Brits fetishising the war than I am.
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May 9, 2020 14:00
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Comrade Fakename posted:Ronya quoting themselves quoting a big chunk of untranslated French text which the significant majority of us probably can’t even read might be the most Ronya thing ever.
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May 9, 2020 14:00
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Comrade Fakename posted:Ronya quoting themselves quoting a big chunk of untranslated French text which the significant majority of us probably can’t even read might be the most Ronya thing ever. I did go to the effort of translating it right in that post I interspersed it with the French original because I've seen waaaay too many translated texts that misrepresented the original ronya fucked around with this message at 14:09 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 14:04
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Aggressive demands that people stop speaking languages other than English are very much in the VE day spirit, if a little late in the day.
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May 9, 2020 14:08
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Yikes the Labour party has suddenly become such a tremendously visible waste. At least until the report came out I could kind of imagine it doing the right thing with Corbyn in charge but now, after all this? I feel very politically disillusion again. There seem to be so many moments where you could be hammering the tories and touting great policies to look after the public but we get this utter rubbish. Working with the landlords and not the renters?? Good grief.
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May 9, 2020 14:09
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Comrade Fakename posted:Ronya quoting themselves quoting a big chunk of untranslated French text which the significant majority of us probably can’t even read might be the most Ronya thing ever. 
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May 9, 2020 14:19
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When they said "Finally, the adults are back in charge" what they meant was that party politics is now only for the middle class again. The Working class have been shunted out of all power and now we've got the party of Landlords who want to squeeze every penny as fast as possible and the party of Landlords who prefer a long continuous bloodletting.
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May 9, 2020 14:20
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VideoGames posted:Yikes the Labour party has suddenly become such a tremendously visible waste. At least until the report came out I could kind of imagine it doing the right thing with Corbyn in charge but now, after all this? Corbyn's real magic was in persuading his supporters not to complain when he sent McDonnell on his tea-and-biscuits charm offensive with City financiers (there, forkboy84. That work for you?)
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May 9, 2020 14:22
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ronya posted:The civilian government perceives that it cannot maintain the loyalty of sufficient military forces to triumph - and responds by distributing light arms to civilians. The rest you know. You used a lot of words when this sentence above could have served reasonably well. I am meaning that the "Right" in this particular instance coalesced into something that from almost any exterior measure could be called "fascism" and that the left were the first ones to oppose it physically inside of Spain through direct action. I appreciate the history lesson, but it doesn't undercut the idea that the Left in this instance were amongst those who directly opposed fascist violence, does it? ronya posted:At what point in this spiral does one point and say: this was a good idea? The conviction on the left that the clerics were a permanent fifth column that would undermine all of their achievements was never plausible. Says who, the Catholic Church in Spain throughout a lot of this time period, and post 1945 in some infamous instances, were perfectly happy supporting Fascism as long as it was more along the lines of Franco and the Vichy regime. Also, how does this play into anything to do with opposition to Fascism, and who did it first? ronya posted:re: opposing fascism. I think events broadly look bad for the left narrative, FWIW. Not terminally so, perhaps, but not great. As I emphasized, not only has the left not been unique in opposing fascism, many times it actively supported collaborating with fascists as long as it feels that the instability will destroy the liberals, social democrats, Christian democrats, etc. first. It is too easy for the left to concoct ideological explanations that actually all of these other groups are the real enemies. In fact, it did so during those times. Even in pre-war Spain it went after the clerics first, and was then astonished to find that it was driving vast numbers of Catholics into the welcoming arms of the right. I mean yes. I am not denying that a lot of the so called "institutional" left during the 1920's and 30's definitely backed fascism when it was actually in charge of nations, but just as often the people opposing fascism were on the Left, and they usually did it first. Now you can make an argument that that was simple self-preservation (fascists don't like competition after all) but that does not necessarily invalidate the claims does it? The violence using the Spartacist up-rising showing that elements of the Centre-Left would rather use proto-fascist elements to crush the Hard Left. ronya posted:I think history has validated the liberal interpretation that in liberal societies, the fascists have street fighters because the communists have street fighters, and vice versa. What is the difference between the police and a street fighter? Other than state sanction and more money? Of course liberal interpretation says that. Can you extend the same level of sceptisism towards those claims as you do towards ones from Left and Right?
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May 9, 2020 14:23
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ronya posted:Corbyn's real magic was in persuading his supporters not to complain when he sent McDonnell on his tea-and-biscuits charm offensive with City financiers The difference being that they didn't let those City Financiers then dictate party policy you permanently obtuse moron. You use so many words to try and skirt away from the material difference I have no idea how any oval office in this thread takes you seriously.
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May 9, 2020 14:31
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Venomous posted:haven't seen this posted yet Imagine being near the back in the conga and catching the slipstream of everyone in front... at least queuing to get into Waitrose or Home Bargains you're standing still at 2m distance giving time for the bugs leaking from the person in front to disperse in the air before you get there... Meanwhile, I haven't seen this posted yet: Covid in Semen. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/07/health/coronavirus-semen-china-health/index.html quote:The new coronavirus can persist in men's semen even after they have begun to recover, a finding that raises the possibility the virus could be sexually transmitted, Chinese researchers said Thursday.
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May 9, 2020 14:32
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Covid in Semen.
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May 9, 2020 14:35
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Gonzo McFee posted:The difference being that they didn't let those City Financiers then dictate party policy you permanently obtuse moron. You use so many words to try and skirt away from the material difference I have no idea how any oval office in this thread takes you seriously. Because even if wrong it's useful to debate folks. Helps to keep us just devolving into just talking to ourselves. Though yes, that does seem like an odd ignorance there Ronya.
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May 9, 2020 14:44
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Imagine being near the back in the conga and catching the slipstream of everyone in front... at least queuing to get into Waitrose or Home Bargains you're standing still at 2m distance giving time for the bugs leaking from the person in front to disperse in the air before you get there... I mean, unless you've got some sort of ppe fetish thing going on, I think you're p likely to catch the Roni during sex regardless of whether it's in semen or not
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May 9, 2020 15:01
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XMNN posted:I mean, unless you've got some sort of ppe fetish thing going on, I think you're p likely to catch the Roni during sex regardless of whether it's in semen or not It's concerning because with SARS it persisted for like 9months after "recovery".
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May 9, 2020 15:06
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Josef bugman posted:You used a lot of words when this sentence above could have served reasonably well. I am meaning that the "Right" in this particular instance coalesced into something that from almost any exterior measure could be called "fascism" and that the left were the first ones to oppose it physically inside of Spain through direct action. I appreciate the history lesson, but it doesn't undercut the idea that the Left in this instance were amongst those who directly opposed fascist violence, does it? It does - this narrative is questionable. The Spanish left began mass executions of clergy and burning churches first (in 1934). It is true that the clergy were serially breaking the constitutional prohibition on participating in education, and openly flouting doing so. It is true that they were staging religious weddings, burials, and festivals, despite the directives against doing so - directives firmly grounded in the strict secularism of the precarious new constitution. The prevalence of monarchists and conservatives in local government made enforcing the law via any legal means difficult. Defeat in the election made the left feel that its brief success had now been lost forever. The refusal of the Church to accept separation of church and state in the traditionally Catholic nations was not helping (it would not do so until Vatican II decades later). Catholic radio and newspapers distributing rhetoric from the Catholic hierarchy which had, to be blunt, nothing more to lose at this point, was even more hysterically unhinged than the any Stalinist newsletter could hope to be. And yet mobs breaking into churches to beat seminarians to death was probably not the right response, I daresay. Once would struggle to say that it was acting against "fascism". And it wasn't true that it was incapable of returning to government - after a brief period of disarray, a left coalition would do so in 1936. Did escalating acts of violence between 1933 and 1936 help? Probably not. Was it an existential struggle with the conservatives, clerics, monarchists, or fascists at that point? Probably not. Gonzo McFee posted:The difference being that they didn't let those City Financiers then dictate party policy you permanently obtuse moron. You use so many words to try and skirt away from the material difference I have no idea how any oval office in this thread takes you seriously. I mean, he did. That was the whole point of John McDonnell pitching Iron Discipline and the Fiscal Credibility Rule consistently since 2016. Credibility to who? Um, maybe financiers? ronya fucked around with this message at 15:13 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 15:06
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ronya posted:
And what policy did that result in where it forced people to go into massive amounts of debt to landlords or face a deadly virus?
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May 9, 2020 15:21
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If you're thinking: well that kind of anticlericalism feels a little extreme!, don't locate it in your mind within the context of the short, extreme 20th century. Rather, think of the long 19th century struggle to establish laïcité in France, which had, yes, had bursts of invading churches to beat priests to death (or schools to beat republican schoolteachers to death, or mobs to beat would-be mobbers to death, etc.), even as late as the 1890s. It was a different time, it was a different standard. But it was still in living, if fading, memory in the 1930s: mobs in Catalonia were burning churches and priests to death in 1909. Unfortunately by the 1930s this kind of conduct would by now be well within the reach of mass media and universal suffrage to transform the reaction against laïcité into support for mass-movement fascism. But - not yet. It had not coalesced yet. Gonzo McFee posted:And what policy did that result in where it forced people to go into massive amounts of debt to landlords or face a deadly virus? I've talked about Corbyn's acceptance of about 2/3 of cuts of the Welfare Reform and Work Act in the 2017 manifesto before, in order to hit costings targets...
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May 9, 2020 15:30
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ronya posted:If you're thinking: well that kind of anticlericalism feels a little extreme!, don't locate it in your mind within the context of the short, extreme 20th century. Rather, think of the long 19th century struggle to establish laïcité in France, which had, yes, had bursts of invading churches to beat priests to death (or schools to beat republican schoolteachers to death, or mobs to beat would-be mobbers to death, etc.), even as late as the 1890s. It was a different time, it was a different standard. But it was still in living, if fading, memory in the 1930s: mobs in Catalonia were burning churches and priests to death in 1909. And you were wrong then, too.
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May 9, 2020 15:34
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ronya posted:And yet mobs breaking into churches to beat seminarians to death was probably not the right response, I daresay. Once would struggle to say that it was acting against "fascism". And it wasn't true that it was incapable of returning to government - after a brief period of disarray, a left coalition would do so in 1936. Did escalating acts of violence between 1933 and 1936 help? Probably not. Was it an existential struggle with the conservatives, clerics, monarchists, or fascists at that point? Probably not. Hey, hang on a moment aren't you doing a chronological slight of hand here? The majority of the violence happened after the declaration of war in 1936? Otherwise it was not "widespread", it was focussed on a small number of people who, in less turbulent times, should have been arrested and given a fair trial. The fact that the Catholic Church had set itself very much in opposition to the Leftists does not excuse them from atrocity, but it also doesn't explain how they were not also resisting fascism that the Catholic Church appeared to support alongside the overthrow of democracy? ronya posted:I mean, he did. That was the whole point of John McDonnell pitching Iron Discipline and the Fiscal Credibility Rule consistently since 2016. Credibility to who? Um, maybe financiers? Credibility in this instance inviting people to talk but not so much basing ones own political speeches/ policy on what they have to say. If you want to argue Corbyn was/is effectively "soft left" from a lot of people in this threads ideal then you aren't going to get that much push back. But it's the utter capitulation to landlords that many of us complain about.
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May 9, 2020 15:37
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I thought fiscal credibility/costings was to appeal to the average voter who doesn't really understand macro-economics but gets upset at the idea of someone, even themselves, getting 'something for nothing'. the appeal for the financiers was presumably stability and sustainability, i.e. that Labour economics would provide growth over the long term better than continuously looting public assets and/or Labour would not drive the country over a hard-Brexit cliff edge in order to satisfy its constituency's atavastic cultural demands
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May 9, 2020 15:39
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XMNN posted:I mean, unless you've got some sort of ppe fetish thing going on, I think you're p likely to catch the Roni during sex regardless of whether it's in semen or not I was pondering what effect (if any) virus-infected semen might have on fertilization, babies and found out this: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/human-semen-can-host-27-different-viruses quote:Human semen can host up to 27 different viruses So I wonder what sort of human would evolve from DNA altered by Corvid-19? Perhaps this happened in the past? Ancient Alien theorists suggest that Corvid-19 modified human DNA and generated a super-human, a god if you will, and we now honour that god in the form of an orange with cloves sticking out of it. 
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May 9, 2020 15:44
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Gonzo McFee posted:When they said "Finally, the adults are back in charge" what they meant was that party politics is now only for the middle class again. The Working class have been shunted out of all power and now we've got the party of Landlords who want to squeeze every penny as fast as possible and the party of Landlords who prefer a long continuous bloodletting. I can't handle the sanctimonious smugness of it all. As if helping the vulnerable and addressing wealth inequality was some childish loving jaunt, and now we can be grown ups again by going back to propping up capital and keeping the working class in their place. What's that, support our public services and fix the welfare system? Look after renters and the low paid? Don't be so silly, the grown ups are back, let's get that debt accumulating again and let's have you work for gently caress all til you die. It's similar to that ghoul Peston trying to take the piss out of Corbyn with that photo caption. We get it, you fucks, you won. You get to have it all, your corrupt little position, your wealth and vulgar influence. You get to keep manufacturing and inflicting your hellworld on the masses, you don't have to take the piss out of and belittle the people that actually tried to improve life for the desperate. EDIT: Ty, a really great and positive British rapper, died yesterday from the rona. Just thought I'd post this any case anyone else knows of him cos I almost missed it on the news and it were a bummer 
Deketh fucked around with this message at 15:54 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 15:49
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RICHARD CHECK Little: dead Cliff: pending
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May 9, 2020 15:51
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I saw this and thought of UKMT The creme egg thing is from Sunday Sport in 2015 apparently.
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May 9, 2020 15:53
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Gonzo McFee posted:Labour consulted the loving Landlord association for this bullshit debt accumulation policy I've really grown to hate the word 'sensible'. Sensible leaders of parties, sensible policies, sensible budgets. What about good leaders and policies and budgets that effect real change? loving sensible shitsuckers.
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May 9, 2020 15:56
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