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Deketh posted:I can't handle the sanctimonious smugness of it all. As if helping the vulnerable and addressing wealth inequality was some childish loving jaunt, and now we can be grown ups again by going back to propping up capital and keeping the working class in their place. What's that, support our public services and fix the welfare system? Look after renters and the low paid? Don't be so silly, the grown ups are back, let's get that debt accumulating again and let's have you work for gently caress all til you die. I think it's a combination of logical fallacy and cargo cult. Sensible grownups sometimes need to make hard decisions, even ones that may hurt some people Therefore if we make hard decisions and hurt people, we're sensible grownups. And therefore, the E: no cats today. The number 44 is a very sensible and grownup age to be Bobstar fucked around with this message at 15:59 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 15:56
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Deketh posted:I can't handle the sanctimonious smugness of it all. As if helping the vulnerable and addressing wealth inequality was some childish loving jaunt, and now we can be grown ups again by going back to propping up capital and keeping the working class in their place. What's that, support our public services and fix the welfare system? Look after renters and the low paid? Don't be so silly, the grown ups are back, let's get that debt accumulating again and let's have you work for gently caress all til you die. The commonly held belief that 'once you're an adult and doing sensible adult stuff - jobs, bills etc - you'll put your silly, student, commie ideas behind you'. I think of it sort of a bit like Plato's cave, where the people can see shadows of what's happening outside their cave but don't desire to leave it. "Silly, student, commie ideas" are the shadows of an alternative reality, and seeing the shadows but not wanting to leave the cave is the 'being a sensible adult' bit.
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May 9, 2020 15:59
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Deketh posted:I can't handle the sanctimonious smugness of it all. As if helping the vulnerable and addressing wealth inequality was some childish loving jaunt, and now we can be grown ups again by going back to propping up capital and keeping the working class in their place. What's that, support our public services and fix the welfare system? Look after renters and the low paid? Don't be so silly, the grown ups are back, let's get that debt accumulating again and let's have you work for gently caress all til you die. That is the main problem "not only did we win, but we are going to inflict pain on you whilst claiming it is for your own good". It's the worst aspects of the belief in God.
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May 9, 2020 16:00
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:The commonly held belief that 'once you're an adult and doing sensible adult stuff - jobs, bills etc - you'll put your silly, student, commie ideas behind you'.
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May 9, 2020 16:03
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I know things kind of suck at the moment so here's a couple of pictures of my local forest today looking very lovely indeed.  It's so close to me and I had no idea about it until just randomly browsing google maps.
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May 9, 2020 16:07
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TACD posted:More specifically, once you’ve accumulated some capital you’ll sensibly want to hoard it all for yourself rather than share it or give any away like a naïve child. I'm still holding out hope that people get more conservative as they get richer, not older. Because there's going to be some upset conservatives in the next few decades if so.
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May 9, 2020 16:10
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I have a load of excess tomato plants that I am going to put out on the pavement for people, and was thinking I might ask for donations. Obviously not "the NHS" cos it ain't a charity but any suggestions? Is care for carers any good? There seems to be care for the carers as well... I mean going to be max getting 30 pounds that I will match but nice to think it is going somewhere decent.
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May 9, 2020 16:22
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Long shot request, does anybody still have that tweet with the radio interview with some boomer arguing that she should be allowed her walk on the beach and the interviewer basically got her to agree that she’d rather die than stay inside for a while? It was from a few thousand years ago, so like a month or two going by the old calendar.
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May 9, 2020 16:22
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Bobstar posted:I'm still holding out hope that people get more conservative as they get richer, not older. I think it's more that - wealth as opposed to age. I remember at school when I had a poster of Lenin on my cubicle wall, other girls in my class would say 'I'd love to meet you when you're older because you'll be a conservative' - ha ha. Well I did meet them at a school reunion a couple of years ago and they were astonished and amazed to find out I was not only a Corbyn supporter but secretary of my local Labour Party branch. It was kinda weird, it was sort of like a 'pleasurable' astonishment, something they would go into the office on the following Monday and say 'you'll never guess what happened at the weekend. I actually met a socialist and she was over 50!.' Suffice to say, if it wasn't for the golden oldies round here, the Labour Party would be almost extinct. Just about any activists, post holders, street stall staffers etc are over 60. And it's not for lack of encouragement! Actually not wealth either really. Before I quit work some years ago I was in the 88th percentile of pay so in people terms, not badly off. A more holistic view of the world perhaps? I think people fondly imagine that there's a money box with their name on it at the DWP wherein their NI & Tax gets put in and then taken out to give them pensions, health care and so on, rather than we need next generation of kids to grow up, educated, producing to look after the next round. What we are paying now is supporting the very old and the very young and the sick, and in their turn they might support us and we were supported. (Tories have broken this 'pay it forward' system down though) Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 16:40 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 16:31
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I apologise for linking to Lad Bible but the video in this link is from a street party in my town yesterday, loving idiots: https://www.ladbible.com/news/news-people-criticised-after-gathering-for-huge-ve-day-street-party-20200509
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May 9, 2020 16:31
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TACD posted:Long shot request, does anybody still have that tweet with the radio interview with some boomer arguing that she should be allowed her walk on the beach and the interviewer basically got her to agree that she’d rather die than stay inside for a while? Here you go: https://twitter.com/YesMissMurphy/status/1242364536365211648
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May 9, 2020 16:33
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TACD posted:Long shot request, does anybody still have that tweet with the radio interview with some boomer arguing that she should be allowed her walk on the beach and the interviewer basically got her to agree that she’d rather die than stay inside for a while? You might be able to track it down from here: https://www.gainsboroughstandard.co...ockdown-2517084 Radio Solent. MIght even be a link directly to it in that link but my internet is going slow.
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May 9, 2020 16:35
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Aphex- posted:I know things kind of suck at the moment so here's a couple of pictures of my local forest today looking very lovely indeed. Gorgeous, I love bluebells. I had a nice little walk through some woods myself, did some nettle and dandelion foraging, then came home and got wound up by arseholes again. Also - you may be aware of this - but if you go to bing maps you can change the dropdown in the top right (on desktop) from road/aerial to Ordnance Survey and you get a lovely OS map of the area, complete with walking routes etc. Those maps normally cost like a tenner each or thereabouts, highly recommend if looking for walking spots.
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May 9, 2020 16:35
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Cheers!
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May 9, 2020 16:41
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As was pointed out at the time, they don't actually put their freedoms over death. They're just a generation of broken, spoiled infants who have no grasp of consequences or not being allowed to do whatever the gently caress they want, and bullishly steamrolling through any objections has worked for them until now, so what could possibly convince them otherwise? If they caught covid then they'd be screaming about how some millennial snowflake must have hosed up and given it to them until their final covid-filled breath.
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May 9, 2020 16:55
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Deketh posted:Gorgeous, I love bluebells. I had a nice little walk through some woods myself, did some nettle and dandelion foraging, then came home and got wound up by arseholes again. That is an amazing tip! I've wondered for ages why Google hadn't aleady done this. My fantasy is for a OS satnav style thing so it can just tell it where you wanna get to and it will plot out a lovely walk...
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May 9, 2020 16:58
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The Perfect Element posted:That is an amazing tip! I've wondered for ages why Google hadn't aleady done this. My fantasy is for a OS satnav style thing so it can just tell it where you wanna get to and it will plot out a lovely walk... Doesn't OS sell digital maps now?
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May 9, 2020 16:59
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Deketh posted:Gorgeous, I love bluebells. I had a nice little walk through some woods myself, did some nettle and dandelion foraging, then came home and got wound up by arseholes again. Oh that's cool, looks like I'll be spending all Sunday looking at free OS maps!
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May 9, 2020 17:04
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The Perfect Element posted:That is an amazing tip! I've wondered for ages why Google hadn't aleady done this. My fantasy is for a OS satnav style thing so it can just tell it where you wanna get to and it will plot out a lovely walk... I'm actually surprised that any company does it for free, since the digital/paper maps cost money. I guess it brings people to bing but it's not the most obvious of features. Aphex- posted:Oh that's cool, looks like I'll be spending all Sunday looking at free OS maps! Enjoy! I love me some crazy contours, the Highland maps are beautiful.
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May 9, 2020 17:10
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Josef bugman posted:Hey, hang on a moment aren't you doing a chronological slight of hand here? The majority of the violence happened after the declaration of war in 1936? Otherwise it was not "widespread", it was focussed on a small number of people who, in less turbulent times, should have been arrested and given a fair trial. The fact that the Catholic Church had set itself very much in opposition to the Leftists does not excuse them from atrocity, but it also doesn't explain how they were not also resisting fascism that the Catholic Church appeared to support alongside the overthrow of democracy? There was escalating violence from 1933 to 1936, including an initial attempt in 1934 at a left-wing regional armed insurrection (it failed, and the national left did not endorse it, but also demanded the punishment of the army officers involved in suppressing it - you know, the usual). By the time the coup was launched, both the republican left and the nationalist right had plenty of bloody shirts to wave. This was what mass media and universal suffrage had changed - suddenly everyone has heard of the slaughter at that one town amongst thousands of towns. For everyone, it's as if it had happened right next door.* This matters - it's why burning churches and killing clergy in 1934 would be different from burning churches and killing clergy in 1909. The scope for retaliatory violence as a political message is nationwide. When the left returned to government in 1936, it's important to appreciate it wasn't facing a fascist opposition in the legislature. There were Falangists. Their number was few and they were irrelevant; they had performed so badly in the February 1936 election that they had won no seats at all, winning all of 0.07% of the vote (not 7%, mind you, but less than a thousandth of the vote). Manuel Azaña as the returned Prime Minister was still fully capable of ordering the entire Falangist party leadership arrested for being fascists and having this order executed (they were - when the coup was launched in July, the Falangist leader José Antonio had been freshly jailed in March and was still there. The initial charge of being a fascist had been thrown out on a technicality - it was not illegal to be a fascist at the time, the emergency decree was only legislated in April - but the charge of possessing arms had stuck). The youth wing of the opposition party was pretty fascist but it wasn't in government, its rampant defection to the Falangists didn't necessitate that they would still be there by the next election; youth are radical, but they're also fickle and fast to stand by flag-wavers who offer ~hope~, that's never changed. Both sides had emphasized the moderate candidates in their coalition lists - when the right discovered it had lost the election, the right coalition leader Gil-Robles received calls to stage a coup, but he denounced those calls and instead called for a peaceful transfer of power to Azaña.   Of course Azaña then got coup'd four months later anyway, with Gil-Roble's passive participation. But this was not a parliamentary coup as in Germany, or a march on the capital as in Italy, but instead a straight-up junta intervening whilst expecting a quick concession as had occurred in 1931 (when the generals refused to support Alfonso XIII, establishing the Second Republic to begin with). But the coup had failed to achieve a quick victory - the plotters did not take enough cities to present the government with a fait accompli, whilst still winning enough to credibly stake a claim. The slaughter that the coup then unleashed in the region that each side controlled then prevented any plausible settlement. * this pattern would not be unique to Spain... there would eventually be an even bigger massacre, on an even more historically unprecedented scale, in another country where the communists had staged a failed and bloody regional coup that is theoretically resolved, axes buried, etc. but instead both sides wave bloody shirts and build up a core of paramilitarized, resentful supporters. Until one reaches a period of low-but-retaliatory mutual violence over land reform that is not itself at existentially problematic level - there's a lot of ruin in a nation - but where the reluctance to control the escalating killings discredits the sitting left-wing coalition government enough that the generals can easily convince hundreds of thousands of people, often youth militias linked to the seminaries most threatened by the communists, that they have to kill the communists now before the communists kill them first like they had in the coup earlier. Even though, y'know, random regional confrontation years ago never actually presented 99% of people with an existential threat or relevance to their way of life.
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May 9, 2020 17:11
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ronya should people have to pay back their landlords on top of their standard rent over 2 years yes or no
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May 9, 2020 17:20
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:As was pointed out at the time, they don't actually put their freedoms over death. They're just a generation of broken, spoiled infants who have no grasp of consequences or not being allowed to do whatever the gently caress they want, and bullishly steamrolling through any objections has worked for them until now, so what could possibly convince them otherwise? If they caught covid then they'd be screaming about how some millennial snowflake must have hosed up and given it to them until their final covid-filled breath. As Dead Kennedys famously named an album: Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death.
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May 9, 2020 17:28
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gh0stpinballa posted:ronya should people have to pay back their landlords on top of their standard rent over 2 years yes or no probably not - I suspect soon we are going to be hearing councils squeal about the surge of people unable to pay their normal rent, so rent+ is going to be a hard sell. Rent is like unemployment: the government cares only very moderately about its level and very much more about sudden surges. It's very hard to compel cashflows that aren't there, so the least effort option is suspension and giving landlords tax relief. Realistically, that's where we're headed on the question which I think you're really asking - should the opposition party be calling for a wet policy even if knows that a bigger problem is coming, the answer is probably yes, if it knows that the govt is disinclined to acknowledge the problem for whatever reason (cough Brexit cough). The opposition can't pass its proposal anyway - the govt will propose and pass its own version - so it may as well have something it can claim credit for (by virtue of being so wet that the govt proposal will certainly include it, rather than something detailed that govt can vary on) (at the same time this will piss off base supporters who want firm commitment on the issue - again, cough brexit cough - but what are they gonna do, vote Lib Dem?) ronya fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 17:43
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ronya posted:probably not - I suspect soon we are going to be hearing councils squeal about the surge of people unable to pay their normal rent, so rent+ is going to be a hard sell. Rent is like unemployment: the government cares only very moderately about its level and very much more about sudden surges. It's very hard to compel cashflows that aren't there, so the least effort option is suspension and giving landlords tax relief. Realistically, that's where we're headed No party will ever take the initiative and consequently take power on such a strategy. Beating a rightwing party to suggesting a rightwing proposal is nothing to be lauded by anyone on the left who has either principles or strategy.
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May 9, 2020 17:47
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Hello thread I've been lurking here for years which has greatly influenced my evolution from "nah, don't really care about politics mate" to "*sigh* looks like it's time to post another anti-tory rant on social media" so thank you everyone. I thought you might get a chuckle out of this music video I've just done featuring the disembodied head of Boris Johnson getting disintegrated at the end, plus all proceeds from album sales are going to The Trussell Trust so any signal boosting is greatly appreciated! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=859d_LLRmyw I will now return to lurking like Homer stepping back into the hedge but please keep fighting (or at least posting about) the good fight; whether hope is a lie or not I find this thread to be a genuinely positive influence in my life. Well, most of the time, anyway.
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May 9, 2020 17:53
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gh0stpinballa posted:ronya should people have to pay back their landlords on top of their standard rent over 2 years yes or no Because they're loving idiots whose ideological commitment to compromise completely misses what compromise is. They're starting right off the bat with a piss weak compromise position, from which they will then compromise repeatedly until they agree to let every landlord get all of their rent immediately and also punch us all in the crotch. Thing is though, Starmer's a loving lawyer, he loving knows that's how negotiation works. The big brainers will all lap up how reasonable and compromised it is, and get to feel like they supported a thing whilst actually implementing Tory policy. But, from Starmer's perspective, it serves its purpose: sucking up to all the petite bouge BTL crowd & letting all the rich feel good about how they're doing their part whilst actually doing nothing.
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May 9, 2020 17:54
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My sister sent me this. It makes me feel slightly safer about doing my shopping. Worth a read. https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/cov...j2EAE8rak_vxOe8
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May 9, 2020 18:11
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ronya posted:The youth wing of the opposition party was pretty fascist but it wasn't in government, its rampant defection to the Falangists didn't necessitate that they would still be there by the next election; youth are radical, but they're also fickle and fast to stand by flag-wavers who offer ~hope~, that's never changed. Both sides had emphasized the moderate candidates in their coalition lists - when the right discovered it had lost the election, the right coalition leader Gil-Robles received calls to stage a coup, but he denounced those calls and instead called for a peaceful transfer of power to Azaña. Isn't that like blaming the Grachhi for the fall of the Republic? Sure they could have folded immediately but the problems would have remained and would not be addressed by the existing political entities? Your argument appears to be that the Left caused the Right to rise up and attempt to have them killed, so therefore no-ones hands are clean and so the Left didn't try and stop facism. To me that seems slightly myopic (used the wrong word here). In that it attempts to make the fault so equally spread about that it actually doesn't address the key problems. You also changed immediately from "lots of murdered priests" to "well there were on going issues and some of them were bad but something something" with such speed that I fear you may have ruptured my ear drums from back blast. You also fail to note that, surprisingly it quite obviously was facing fascism in certain quarters, because the Francoists won and killed lots of people. Would you prefer it if I said that the Falange were Proto-facsist's or Pseudo-Fascists? Because they were certainly a hard right regime with a penchant for mass executions, pro Clericalism, political suppression and attempts to crush every ethnicity in Spain together to create an actual "Spain". I think I see the difficulty though, you seem to believe that if a fascist is not in government then they therefore have no power... the fact that they won seems to undercut this somewhat, does it not? Also, as regards the footnote... I know you most likely do not mean it in this way, but it sounds very much like "the Communists got what was their due for messing around in politics and not restraining themselves". I do not think you are saying that, but can you perhaps see where I got that idea from? I may not be able to reply quickly to your next few posts as I need to play DnD with some friends, sorry! Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 18:22 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 18:11
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Borrovan posted:imo Starmer's weak-rear end position is actually an achievable compromise... Very doubtful... again, cashflow is going to be a sticky problem. It is difficult to resolve at the tenant-owner level because both sides may have a chain of expenses that the govt has no visibility into (and it is the 20%-10% of trickiest cases we are interested in, not the median, where both tenant+owner are probably employed and still have some cash buffer). Most likely solution is some form of tax relief because govt can decide not to claim an existing cashflow, rather than compel a rebudgeting that will be very difficult for a handful But tenants don't pay much tax in proportion to rent, council tax is tiny --> so, probably it will be property tax relief where a share is passed on the tenant. This will take time to sort out. So all that plus a delay too. Residential pales in comparison to the problem on commercial tenancy really namesake posted:No party will ever take the initiative and consequently take power on such a strategy. Beating a rightwing party to suggesting a rightwing proposal is nothing to be lauded by anyone on the left who has either principles or strategy. the fundamental calculus bound Corbyn's Labour on the issues he faced - Brexit and policing and immigration - and it'll bind Starmer's Labour too (throwing helpful bombs as a lame duck leader does not count, he already knows he's out and electoralism is now irrelevant) I don't think it's whether one advances headline-oriented right-wing proposals (Labour will add 10k more police officers - Tories will add 20k more police officers!!) inasmuch as that the party left don't trust the soft left to, er, not be soft, whereas every one of Corbyn's concessions was interpreted as either an incredibly clever lie to get out the vote or as a Honest and Genuine™ appeal to Working Class Anxieties (how these explanations fit together depends on one's inclinations)
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May 9, 2020 18:14
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https://twitter.com/Jamie4North/status/1259045578367008770?s=19
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May 9, 2020 18:20
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I saw hundreds of slapped hams out celebrating VE day yesterday and this tweet is somehow worse.
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May 9, 2020 18:22
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loads of people out and about, including multiple groups of lads on bikes who can't all be living in the same household unless there's several sets of fraternal triplets or something think the chip shop is making people go in one at a time but everyone's just milling about in a huddle outside the door good thing the infection rates weren't already sky high before the government "accidentally" briefed all their journalist pals that the lockdown is over just before a sunny bank holiday weekend!
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May 9, 2020 18:23
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Are we going back to herd immunity again now?
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May 9, 2020 18:25
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Google maps sent me my monthly travel history update. ~ Highlights ~ Cities I've visited: - London Places I've been: - The local park - The local sainsbury's - The other local sainsbury's ~ End of highlights ~
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May 9, 2020 18:26
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ronya posted:the fundamental calculus bound Corbyn's Labour on the issues he faced - Brexit and policing and immigration - and it'll bind Starmer's Labour too The fundamental calculus is massively different because Corbyn was at worst trying to balance various working class pressures in a social democratic worker empowerment framework, Starmer just met with an association of landlords and announced a very pro-landlord policy. This is motivating class interest revealed massively.
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May 9, 2020 18:31
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Starmer is so drat forensic https://twitter.com/michaeljswalker/status/1259173593897934853?s=20
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May 9, 2020 18:34
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May 9, 2020 18:37
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Josef bugman posted:Isn't that like blaming the Grachhi for the fall of the Republic? Sure they could have folded immediately but the problems would have remained and would not be addressed by the existing political entities? On the contrary, the left very much tried to stop "fascism". Azaña was not after all wrong to regard the fascists as a threat! He ordered the entire party leadership rounded up and detained! But the left militants did so by shooting some fascists, but also liberals, social democrats, social Catholics, conservative Catholics, conservative Freemasons, or just apathetic or unaligned people at the wrong time and place, and declared that they were the real fascist threat. This was well before the Civil War started, under a right-wing government that had won an electoral victory but was far from totalitarian. This was not very productive at suppressing actual fascism. The coup, in the end, did not come from the fascists Azaña had successfully imprisoned. The Francoists would go on to win by 1939, but that part you quoted is before the war starts The left being unable to identify fascists despite the undying enmity is a recurring theme - it stems directly from the ideological predisposition to define everyone to the right as fascists, inevitably fascist, or fascist enablers. That was the error of Ernst Thälmann and the entire Third Period too, of course. If anyone to the right means defining socialists to the right of Stalin as social fascists, well, then they're fascists too.  (Erich Honecker in 1986, Gen Sec of the SED, celebrating the 25th anniversary of the Anti-Fascist Protective Rampart ('Antifaschistischer Schutzwall') that had saved the GDR from capitalist destabilization, better known as the Berlin Wall in the West) ronya fucked around with this message at 19:03 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 18:37
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Google maps sent me my monthly travel history update. From Google Maps the farthest I been from my house is 155.6m since lockdown started. Local shop, twice weekly.
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May 9, 2020 18:44
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forkboy84 posted:Starmer is so drat forensic I have to say I am enjoying, for a given value of enjoyment, the left just repeatedly dunking on starmer at every opportunity. At this rate nobody's gonna like him except liberals and journos who are just gonna vote lib dem anyway.
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