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Tei posted:The western world is all about original creation but maybe we are a tiny bit wrong. Woah, that sounds like work, and the professor is already dragging themselves to class at least half of the days to lecture. Why would you ask them to do anything more?
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May 9, 2020 20:30
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I think my BS radar broke. Are we seriously debating whether plagiarism and cheating on tests is bad?
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May 9, 2020 20:44
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Plagiarism is obviously bad but I think people are confused because the OP made it sound like using stack overflow itself was bad and not allowed. I'm assuming the student in question was posting "do my homework for me" questions and wholesale pasting the answers as his assignment (something I thought stack overflow itself clamped down hard on so I'm surprised they got through). However if I'm wrong and the OP actually banned asking questions on stackoverflow while teaching a course in some archaic niche language then yeah he's the horror.
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May 9, 2020 21:04
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The students in this case were copying the code from the answers, not merely using the strategy described in it.
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May 9, 2020 21:05
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SupSuper posted:It already is. True, the University system and degrees were already ruined for so many reasons. But part of what got us here is schools encouraging and refusing to clamp down on the possibilities opened by public facing GitHubs and fraternity test banks and such. Opportunities to cheat are handed to students on a silver platter, with no one blaming the professors -- even as they lazily reuse assignments and exams that are already known to be leaked on GitHub. And then no one ever checks if cheating happened, or when reported it gets stuck in years of bureaucracy. Universities knew what they were getting and did it anyway to juke their graduation stats (to get away with relaxing admissions and increasing tuition), but it's still the tolerance of plagiarism that's driving the whole problem. Spatial posted:
On the contrary, the point of plagiarising is to skip the evaluation part. No one will ever know if our students who cheated the whole way through actually know any computer science or not, because they successfully avoided any scrutiny that everyone else endured, via deception and fraud. I think a lot of my students who cheated actually DO know what they're doing to an extent and are smart enough to do most of the work if forced, but they're just not. In the worst case, even the honest students are incentivized to steal code from GitHub as a time management trick because our system forces them to take too many classes simultaneously, and there's a runaway workload and difficulty level in every class with no efforts by the admin to crack down on it (either the professors, or the cheating students creating the appearance that the difficulty level is fine). It's a pretty grey issue sometimes and it's inevitable that people don't all agree about it or have misconceptions. Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 21:23 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 21:16
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Dumb Lowtax posted:(to get away with relaxing admissions and increasing tuition), Why would increasing tuition be something they would need to "get away with"?
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May 9, 2020 21:42
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Dumb Lowtax posted:No one will ever know if our students who cheated the whole way through actually know any computer science or not, because they successfully avoided any scrutiny that everyone else endured, via deception and fraud. If no one will ever know, then whats the point in teaching them that information? If no one will ever know it sounds like the only person they cheated was themselves. edit: to be clear, I'm not endorsing cheating. Thermopyle fucked around with this message at 23:29 on May 9, 2020 |
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May 9, 2020 22:44
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If you’re smart enough to cheat off of stack overflow or public GitHubs or whatever and pass the class without getting caught, congratulations you are prepared and qualified for 99.9% of programming jobs
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May 9, 2020 23:14
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Hammerite posted:Why would increasing tuition be something they would need to "get away with"? Because raising tuition + relaxing admissions = lowered graduation rate, unless you do something else to compensate to get away with it.
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May 10, 2020 00:38
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Thermopyle posted:If no one will ever know, then whats the point in teaching them that information? If no one will ever know it sounds like the only person they cheated was themselves. No one will know until they have an individual assignment that needs more than a paragraph of code. Then there is nobody to copy and stack overflow isn't enough. Since gaining the ability to code like that is the entire point of taking coding classes, it ruins the entire point of certification to give them a passing grade.
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May 10, 2020 01:10
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that they are even trying to get a degree is a horror
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May 10, 2020 01:25
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Dylan16807 posted:No one will know until they have an individual assignment that needs more than a paragraph of code. Then there is nobody to copy and stack overflow isn't enough. Since gaining the ability to code like that is the entire point of taking coding classes, it ruins the entire point of certification to give them a passing grade. Right, so someone will know.
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May 10, 2020 01:28
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Thermopyle posted:Right, so someone will know. Don't be dense, two posters are telling stories about two different scenarios, one which involves copying stackoverflow answers, versus the other which involves copying entire completed assignments from a prior year's students' githubs. You had to mix quotes from both people in order to act like something inconsistent is being said.
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May 10, 2020 01:32
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Don't be dense, two posters are telling stories about two different scenarios, one which involves copying stackoverflow answers, versus the other which involves copying entire completed assignments from a prior year's students' githubs. You had to mix quotes from both people in order to act like something inconsistent is being said. I'm not acting like something inconsistent is being said and regardless, I didn't quote two different people. I was pointing out that while someone may not catch them immediately, you should take heart that they'll either get caught out later or if they don't it didn't matter anyway. Thermopyle fucked around with this message at 01:37 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 01:35
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Thermopyle posted:I'm not acting like something inconsistent is being said and regardless, I didn't quote two different people. You replied to two different people. And no, I don't take heart. In my experience the types of people we're talking about also lie on their resumes, never get called out on the job for being bullshitters and cranking out poo poo work, oftentimes go toward the management track which they have the deception skills for (and which exposes them to less technical scrutiny), and then they become management and open the door wide for more poo poo employees to never get caught. These are the people who succeed and fail upward. Donald Trump is president and Elon Musk's wealth and following are nearly unprecedented. This is who succeeds.
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May 10, 2020 01:40
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My PhD advisor constantly buried cheating inquiries I launched on that premise though, "it doesn't matter because they're only cheating themselves and will be caught without the skills someday, and can't possibly succeed in life".
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May 10, 2020 01:43
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Dumb Lowtax posted:My PhD advisor constantly buried cheating inquiries I launched on that premise though, "it doesn't matter because they're only cheating themselves and will be caught without the skills someday, and can't possibly succeed in life". Ah, so that's how my coworkers came to be
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May 10, 2020 01:47
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Dumb Lowtax posted:You replied to two different people. Well yeah, but the second one didn't have anything to do with making the point of the the first one. Dumb Lowtax posted:And no, I don't take heart. In my experience the types of people we're talking about also lie on their resumes, never get called out on the job for being bullshitters and cranking out poo poo work, oftentimes go toward the management track which they have the deception skills for (and which exposes them to less technical scrutiny), and then they become management and open the door wide for more poo poo employees to never get caught. These are the people who succeed and fail upward. Donald Trump is president and Elon Musk's wealth and following are nearly unprecedented. This is who succeeds. So your claim is that they are able to do all of this because they were able to successfully cheat at school? I mean, I suppose you could make the argument that not catching them out at this earlier stage in their personal development is what caused them to go on to be whatever. I'm not sure that's not reversing the cause and effect though. Notably, I'm not really sure either of the people you mention got to their positions because of their degree.
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May 10, 2020 01:50
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Every time I am reminded of Chrome declining to respect autocomplete="off" I get a headache but I also feel blessed that I just work on backend kinda things.
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May 10, 2020 03:28
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Imagine being a browser developer and just knowing you are in full control of the lives of every single front-end developer out there.
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May 10, 2020 07:09
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Carbon dioxide posted:Imagine being a browser developer and just knowing you are in full control of the lives of every single front-end developer out there. Many of us survived to IE6. We come to expect getting backstabbed by core browser devs. We have the tools and technology to survive to that, is just we prefer not to fight.
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May 10, 2020 07:58
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Carbon dioxide posted:Imagine being a browser developer and just knowing you are in full control of the lives of every single front-end developer out there. This is why best practice is to make your own scrollbars. And scrolling. And form controls. And back button. And framesets. And alerts. Just can't trust the browser y'know?
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May 10, 2020 08:48
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canvas elements ftw
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May 10, 2020 08:53
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pokeyman posted:This is why best practice is to make your own scrollbars. And scrolling. And form controls. And back button. And framesets. And alerts. Just can't trust the browser y'know? Creating custom widgets like scrollbars is a outdated tecnique from the 90's, early 00's. I believe. It was a time where graphic designers where making the transition to printed forms to the web, and they had a lot to share with us webmasters, but also a incredible baggage with printed form that was hard to let out. Wysiwig editors are from that era. You can't just make a HTML 1.0 website and put it online for customers. Once people get accustomed to some level of usability, you can't give less. You are forced to give that level of usability or more. Sometimes this is more than the standard widgets provide. On top of that, theres some effort to provide a "neutral" design for websites that is good for both cellphones and desktops. The buttons design need to be adapted, everything need more "air" around than normal, so they are easy to tap with a tablet. Now we have frameworks like Bootstrap that don't add any html on their own. The html you write is the one you will see if you inspect a control. Everything is achieved just by CSS, this is the proper way and because is not tryiing to emulate widgets, stuff always behave native. Except if you comes to need a widget that heavily need scripting, like a <select> where you can write and it search a database for matches and are provided as <options> in the <select>. When theres a exception, is for a reason. Nobody uses framesets anymore since... 2010?, you can achieve the same things with floating divs and ajax, and it works much better. I like framesets, but frames expect a type of device... a desktop, and this is bad form. Framesets are also noisy when it comes with the browser history and was hard to make them behave in a way natural to the user. Nobody uses framesets, but I would if I had a user case for them. Tei fucked around with this message at 09:19 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 09:15
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Tei posted:Creating custom widgets like scrollbars is a outdated tecnique from the 90's, early 00's. I believe. Somebody tell the Chrome devs this They're still handrolling their own scollbars and right click menus instead of using the OS-native ones for some godawful reason
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May 10, 2020 09:45
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If your website messes with my page scroll speed, don't expect me to use it. Ever.
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May 10, 2020 09:45
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Dylan16807 posted:No one will know until they have an individual assignment that needs more than a paragraph of code. Then there is nobody to copy and stack overflow isn't enough. Since gaining the ability to code like that is the entire point of taking coding classes, it ruins the entire point of certification to give them a passing grade. Ok ... so maybe test that and only pass the students who can do it, instead of just reusing paragraph-sized assignments with solutions plastered all over the internet?
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May 10, 2020 10:39
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Somebody tell the Chrome devs this I was talking from the point of view of the webmaster. I have no idea what the browsers devs are doing with the scrollbars, if using native ones of creating new ones. Is possible if you create something like a browser where you want the scrollbars to be skineable (I don't, but the feature exist), to receive many type of events (that maybe are not implemented on all OS) that you have to create your own scrollbar to give a consistent look & feel trougth OS's. The browser is already kind of a virtual machine where you run software inside. Is not too strongly wrong that it have a graphic toolkit for widgets. It could be something they "had to" instead they wanted to do.
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May 10, 2020 10:47
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I thought of this thread just now when I opened a profile page on another site and the browser helpfully auto filled my password in the “enter your password here to enable account deletion” box
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May 10, 2020 11:41
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Because raising tuition + relaxing admissions = lowered graduation rate, unless you do something else to compensate to get away with it. I don't understand what you're saying here either (why would increasing the amount of tuition students receive result in a lowered graduation rate?) but the conversation has moved on and it was tenuously relevant anyway, so never mind.
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May 10, 2020 12:54
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Soricidus posted:Ok ... so maybe test that and only pass the students who can do it, instead of just reusing paragraph-sized assignments with solutions plastered all over the internet? Oral examinations, discuss your solution and answer questions about it. If you can do that then even a copy-paste might be fine.
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May 10, 2020 13:51
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Volte posted:Don't gently caress around with plagiarism at university. Someone in my year had their degree revoked after they'd already graduated, moved away, and gotten a job because they gave a lower year student some code they wrote for an assignment in a prior year and they handed it in unchanged since the assignment was the same. It was the same prof and he recognized the code, and since he still had copies of all the assignments from prior years, it was easy to see who gave it to him. No one replied to this, but I find the idea that a university could revoke your degree in this case absolutely insane and I hope this person took it to court. I know universities can and have revoked degrees for severe academic misconduct committed during the course of studies that would have disqualified the student from receiving their degree had it been discovered on time, but for doing something you did after graduating? Your post made me want to find examples of similar things happening. The closet I found where a degree was actually revoked was a German university revoked a PhD after the person was caught publishing papers with bogus data or something like that, and that went through like 3 or 4 levels of the German court system before it was ultimately upheld. I’m not sure if they should’ve been able to do that, but doing harm to the field of Physics itself is a few steps beyond helping someone cheat on an undergrad assignment.
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May 10, 2020 14:49
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zergstain posted:No one replied to this, but I find the idea that a university could revoke your degree in this case absolutely insane and I hope this person took it to court. I know universities can and have revoked degrees for severe academic misconduct committed during the course of studies that would have disqualified the student from receiving their degree had it been discovered on time, but for doing something you did after graduating?
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May 10, 2020 15:52
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Speaking of custom scrollbars, it's always amused me that the website css-tricks has one of the ugliest scrollbars I've ever seen (it's that oval thing on the top right):
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May 10, 2020 16:14
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Tei posted:Many of us survived to IE6. We come to expect getting backstabbed by core browser devs. We have the tools and technology to survive to that, is just we prefer not to fight. Surviving the early bad days of the web would mean we had XHTML instead of JavaScript, unless you mean front end developers survived like someone who fell into a burning tar pit and lost all their limbs xtal fucked around with this message at 16:20 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 16:16
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Carbon dioxide posted:If your website messes with my page scroll speed, don't expect me to use it. Ever. Speaking of which, what loving MONSTER decided implementing smooth scrolling in JavaScript was a good idea? Those of us who turn it off did it for a reason!
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May 10, 2020 16:39
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:Somebody tell the Chrome devs this I think I remember these, scrollbars allows the tagging of search results: which is pretty awesome. I think the auto-hiding and removal of arrow buttons came from Apple to be small screen and touch friendly. Not really a fan of auto-hiding, but you can usually scroll with something else. Right-click menus are an OS failing, they create a new event loop to process input events and thus the main thread stops and thus media playback and networking all freeze  It’s rather ironic that browsers reimplement all the UI elements for performance reasons whilst desktop devs want to use native languages like C# for better performance but are inherently stuck behind the slow default UI. Is that still a thing?
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May 10, 2020 17:03
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Hammerite posted:I don't understand what you're saying here either (why would increasing the amount of tuition students receive result in a lowered graduation rate?) but the conversation has moved on and it was tenuously relevant anyway, so never mind. The more tuition costs, the more students will decide they can't afford it when they have some kind of financial hardship
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May 10, 2020 17:48
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Browsers have their own UI so it can be customized by CSS. Which, ironically, usually defaults to some IE6-era look.
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May 10, 2020 17:52
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NtotheTC posted:Plagiarism is obviously bad but I think people are confused because the OP made it sound like using stack overflow itself was bad and not allowed. Sorry to drag this out, but it's an art programming class using Processing. The student copied this code exactly from this example video. It's not a case where a single function was copied from Stack Overflow, it's a case where the entire project was a copy of someone else's work. I'm not asking for anything fancy, just some earnest playing in Processing to try and draw. The students get very worried that their projects aren't amazing, so they run out and copy code from the internet. I tell them over and over not to do that (or worry, I'm not a picky grader!) I appreciate that code is shared, and we all learn from each other's code. But there's a huge difference between that and claiming someone else's work wholesale.
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May 10, 2020 19:48
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