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K8.0 posted:I gete that people are mad and why, but it's objectively so stupid. If you were willing to pay a premium for extra performance, you should have gone Intel to begin with. If you weren't, you never should have considered the upgrade path. Being angry that AMD is preventing you from making bad decisions is understandable but stupid. lol what a dumb loving post. just buy more stuff, consumer! ... Getting mad on a forum is pretty pointless, but voicing that displeasure directly to AMD is potentially useful. And it's not worth going crazy and throwing your PC away until we know for sure that's happening and if "unofficial" bioses for older motherboards will be a thing like before.
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May 10, 2020 18:26
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K8.0 posted:I gete that people are mad and why, but it's objectively so stupid. If you were willing to pay a premium for extra performance, you should have gone Intel to begin with. If you weren't, you never should have considered the upgrade path. Being angry that AMD is preventing you from making bad decisions is understandable but stupid. First of all, that depends on how you define extra performance, AMD is the premium top performer when it comes to productivity by far. Second of all, there's a difference between making bad decisions, and borderline lying to your customers. Had AMD immediately announced when x570 came out that Zen 3 wouldn't be compatible with 400-series, that would have made a world of difference. They had an entire year to announce their intentions, and they chose to keep silent while customers bought into b450 and x470 (which are perfectly fine boards and could no doubt run zen 3 by the way) with the assumption based on marketing that they would support at least one more generation of chips. This isn't about bad decisions, this is at best case AMD knowing about what was happening and choosing to remain silent, or at worst case straight up lying.
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May 10, 2020 19:13
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orcane posted:No one is "irrationally angry" about it and you're missing the point. it's 2020... if their new CPU is released in the fall, how many months are people getting upset for?
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May 10, 2020 19:33
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Dramicus posted:First of all, that depends on how you define extra performance, AMD is the premium top performer when it comes to productivity by far. Second of all, there's a difference between making bad decisions, and borderline lying to your customers. Had AMD immediately announced when x570 came out that Zen 3 wouldn't be compatible with 400-series, that would have made a world of difference. They had an entire year to announce their intentions, and they chose to keep silent while customers bought into b450 and x470 (which are perfectly fine boards and could no doubt run zen 3 by the way) with the assumption based on marketing that they would support at least one more generation of chips. Sure, the 5 people who need the performance of a 3900X/3950X over Intel, but don't need Threadripper, and also really need the upgrade to a 4900X/4950X but also didn't have a reason to buy X570 have a reason to be upset. Everyone else is a dipshit. Klyith posted:lol what a dumb loving post. just buy more stuff, consumer! Yes, me telling people to not be idiots and make more efficient decisions and buy fewer things and spend less overall is definitely the idiot consumerist take and not this moronic "upgrade CPU every year or two" bullshit.
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May 10, 2020 19:36
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K8.0 posted:Sure, the 5 people who need the performance of a 3900X/3950X over Intel, but don't need Threadripper, and also really need the upgrade to a 4900X/4950X but also didn't have a reason to buy X570 have a reason to be upset. Everyone else is a dipshit. If AMD had been upfront about the upgrade situation when x570 was released this would be a different story. But at the time, there were few reasons to upgrade to x570 if you already had a decent board. You can't fault someone for picking a more economic board especially when performance was absolutely the same. Why pay more if you don't have to? Well had AMD merely stated their upgrade plans a year ago, things would have been far more reasonable. Second of all, you assume that people upgrading their CPUs every year don't have other uses for the replaced parts. Even if they don't, a non-trivial cost can be recouped by selling used CPUs. Your argument boils down to "buy the most expensive, latest parts, or go gently caress yourself." Buying a perfectly suitable b450 board is being more efficient, especially when it can be expected to accept future upgrades.
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May 10, 2020 19:45
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K8.0 posted:Sure, the 5 people who need the performance of a 3900X/3950X over Intel, but don't need Threadripper, and also really need the upgrade to a 4900X/4950X but also didn't have a reason to buy X570 have a reason to be upset. Everyone else is a dipshit. There was no reason to believe older chipsets couldn't take Zen 3. There's still apparently no technical reason that's the case. There are good reasons not to choose X570 - chipset fans being one of them. If you didn't give a gently caress about PCIe4 (like almost everyone), then X570 was not something that necessarily made sense. AMD did not communicate their plans, at all. It's well and good to have the value of hindsight, but people buying low end CPUs and B450 boards had perfectly reasonable expectations of being able to upgrade to a Zen 3 chip later on.
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May 10, 2020 19:53
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I thought the Intel thread was the one with the meltdowns, not this one. Come on people.
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May 10, 2020 19:53
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It's not about the motherboards, it's about the fundamental stupidity of buying a cheap AMD CPU and hoping to drop in an upgrade that finally matches Intel in a year or two. Drop in replacements have never been good value and anyone who has ever expected them to be was and is stupid. My argument boils down to "Spending more total money on multiple AMD CPUs to maybe match Intel performance is objectively idiotic" and it's indisputably true. e - if you seriously want to disagree with me on this, show me the numbers how someone could buy any Zen CPU, then upgrade to a newer Zen CPU, and have the same or better performance as Intel for the same or better price. You can't, because it's not loving reality. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 19:56
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K8.0 posted:It's not about the motherboards, it's about the fundamental stupidity of buying a cheap AMD CPU and hoping to drop in an upgrade that finally matches Intel in a year or two. Drop in replacements have never been good value and anyone who has ever expected them to be was and is stupid. Not everyone has $400 right now to spend on a toy. Spending $100 now with the expectation that in a few years you could spend another $100 on ebay and keep up with modern games is a thing lots of people did with AM4.
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May 10, 2020 20:01
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K8.0 posted:It's not about the motherboards, it's about the fundamental stupidity of buying a cheap AMD CPU and hoping to drop in an upgrade that finally matches Intel in a year or two. Drop in replacements have never been good value and anyone who has ever expected them to be was and is stupid. Who says they are trying to match Intel performance? You are creating a strawman. Intel doesn't even factor into the decision process. If you look at AMD in isolation, you see clear and dramatic gains in performance in each generation. Keep in mind a cheap AMD cpu could easily be 6-cores/12-threads. There are reasons for upgrading beyond chasing Intel. Someone who bought x370 or b350 could have jumped from a 1600 to a 3950x on the same board over the course 3 years, and that would have been far cheaper than just buying one xeon processor at any point in those 3 years. Remember, Intel was charging $10,000 for what AMD sells at ~$1k now.
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May 10, 2020 20:02
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K8.0 posted:Yes, me telling people to not be idiots and make more efficient decisions and buy fewer things and spend less overall is definitely the idiot consumerist take and not this moronic "upgrade CPU every year or two" bullshit. "just buy a very expensive pc" is a consumerist take, yes, as well as being an elitist one. While you have a point that probably there are people that were thinking about buying a 4600 when their 3600 was just fine, that isn't necessarily the case. And not upgrading your cpu every year or two is in fact easier when you get support for more than one year. Nothing about cutting off support to older AM4 platforms makes it possible to stretch a build longer with less buying of new parts and less waste. thirdly, the "you should have gone Intel" was the supremely dumb cap to a dumb post. someone who bought an Intel PC at the wrong time (ie just before ryzen restored some competition) got screwed through no fault of their own. either a limited CPU with a very short shelf life, or an extremely expensive purchase.
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May 10, 2020 20:09
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K8.0 posted:It's not about the motherboards, it's about the fundamental stupidity of buying a cheap AMD CPU and hoping to drop in an upgrade that finally matches Intel in a year or two. Drop in replacements have never been good value and anyone who has ever expected them to be was and is stupid. Having the option to upgrade to a 8-12 core zen 3 down the road if you have a 1600/2600 is nice if games start using more cores with the release of the new consoles. It's the same as buying a mid range video card now and another in 2-3 years instead of a beefy video card and using it for 5 years. I agree it's more wasteful of resources though. It also only holds up if 8-12 core CPUs are an affordable drop in eventually. If they're still pegged at 300+, it doesn't make sense. edit: yeah for me it's not a better value than Intel argument, it's a better value down the road instead of buying a 3900 from the get-go. Inept fucked around with this message at 20:47 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 20:42
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I think the people this dicked over are the people who bought a B350/B450 and a "placeholder" chip (1600AF/2400G/etc) with the intention of upgrading to a Zen3 when it came out. Yeah, you can still upgrade to Zen2, but that caps your per-thread performance at a certain level and that opens up the question of whether the upgrade is going to have been worth the wait and the additional cost, or if you should have just ponied up for a 8700K or 9900K in the first place, gotten a higher level of performance, and been using it for the last 2.5 years. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:47 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 20:42
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K8.0 posted:e - if you seriously want to disagree with me on this, show me the numbers how someone could buy any Zen CPU, then upgrade to a newer Zen CPU, and have the same or better performance as Intel for the same or better price. You can't, because it's not loving reality. I don't even have to resort to hypotheticals for that. Two real systems (prices are just the mobo & CPU): My 1600X/x370: purchase price $320 in 2017. At the time it strongly outperformed any intel combo of remotely the same price. If upgraded with a 3700X today for $300, the 2017 Intel CPU of similar performance would have been the 7900X Skylake-X which was $1k for just the CPU. Also it would be on par with a 9900K (not available in 2017) that's definitely over $600 for a CPU+mobo combo. The 2400G/B450 system I built for a friend last year, something between $265 and $290 for both. (Don't remember exactly what the CPU cost, she purchased it so I can't look it up. But even if it was full launch MSRP it was less than $300 total.) If we imagine that it could be upgraded to a hypothetical Ryzen 4600, and we imagine that said CPU will have a modest but appreciable performance boost over a 3600, then said hypothetical system would likely be very close to a 9700K system in gaming and outperform it in non-gaming apps. That would be about $500 unless AMD decides to bump prices quite a bit. A 9700K + decent mobo was more than $500. owned Klyith fucked around with this message at 21:04 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 21:00
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Klyith posted:owned  a 8700k from 2017 is still ahead of or at least on par with the 3700X unless you render Cinebench all day (source: computerbase FPS and frametime) and your second example is completely hypothetical.
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May 10, 2020 21:34
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K8.0 posted:e - if you seriously want to disagree with me on this, show me the numbers how someone could buy any Zen CPU, then upgrade to a newer Zen CPU, and have the same or better performance as Intel for the same or better price. You can't, because it's not loving reality. Ok well heres what the plan was for my friends little brother in college. He got him a 1600AF ($85 with $20 mobo credit at microcenter), got a $40 open box Asrock B450 Pro4 ($20 with the mobo credit), and picked up a single 8gb stick of DDR4 2400 for $20 on ebay. He bumped down his 1060 6Gig and the brother had a 1080p/60 monitor, which the build basically maxes in everything. The plan was when the little brother got a job down the line in 2-3 years, he could pick up a Zen2 or Zen3 8 core used on ebay for cheap, since AMD resale value is historically way lower, partly because of socket stability! If he woulda gone intel, that would have been a 9100F and a trash tier B365 board or something, which the 1600AF outperforms today. And his upgrade pathway is maxed out at a 9900K, which I can guarantee you will still be $300 for years to come on ebay.
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May 10, 2020 21:40
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So are Ryzen 4xxx APUs the end of the line for my B450 Mortar mainboard? If so, I guess I'm ok with that.
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May 10, 2020 21:58
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teagone posted:So are Ryzen 4xxx APUs the end of the line for my B450 Mortar mainboard? If so, I guess I'm ok with that.
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May 10, 2020 22:06
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eames posted:
The 8700k was not available until the very end of 2017, I would have had to get a 7700 or 7800. Add the mobo to the 8700K and it's at most a tie in price (8700K: $380, leaving only $120 for the motherboard which isn't a lot on the intel side). Also if video games are the only performance metric that matters, then I keep the 1600X and buy a higher tier GPU because I don't play games at 720p. My hypothetical B450 4600 upgrade is the exact thing that K8.0 said people are dumb to be mad about, because upgrading CPUs isn't worth it. edit: eames posted:source: computerbase FPS and frametime hey would you mind linking that source because apparently they're a pretty dead heat in this computerbase review  https://www.computerbase.de/2019-07/amd-ryzen-3000-test/3/#diagramm-test-performancerating-fuer-spiele-fps-uhd Klyith fucked around with this message at 22:46 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 22:18
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Even for the "another five fps in CS is worth hundreds of dollahs!" commandos, being able to jump to one Zen generation more is possibly worth it exactly because the IPC improvements have been pretty good as AMD keeps optimizing CCX/IF latency. It's not about being able to go 1700 -> 2700 -> 3700 -> 4700, but 2700 -> 4700 could be useful while 2700 -> 3700 is much less so, as an example. E: maybe if you cherrypick the games in the composite rating. Otherwise it looks like this (you could take the 3600, save a lot of money and still be in the vicinity of the old flagship $360 CPU). And I'm even taking out "lol Ryzen only good to render Cinebench all day" results for applications, just in case gaming is not all that's on your mind:   Totally not worth it, why do you even want to upgrade your AMD CPUs just should have bought Intel. Ur stoopid. 
orcane fucked around with this message at 23:00 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 22:49
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My desktop is still running on a R5 1600 ("retired" after a year in a compute node) and an A320 mobo (open box, the cheapest thing Microcenter had that day). Hilariously, this is paired with an RX 5700 because a friend got me all excited about serious business PC gaming by telling me about Steam's Proton and how it was out of beta and worked incredibly well these days. He was right about Proton, especially when you do due diligence on protondb before buying a game. But it turns out that I'm still doing all of my "AAA" gaming on the PS4, and I'm incredibly excited about the PS5. The most grapically demanding game I play on PC is ESO. It was E:D, but eventually not even Operation Ida could keep it fun for me. (Shout out to OpIda, who got me an extra 3 months of E:D fun before I burned-out.) Most of what I enjoy on PC is weird indie games and stuff like XCOM -- things that don't really care about your FPS. Anyway, I'm thinking about getting a cheap B550 when those come out, and pairing it with a 4700G. That would necessitate new, decent RAM, as the system is currently using second-hand 2400MHz DIMMs. And I want to replace the pair of years-old 2.5" SSDs with a nice, new NVMe M.2 SSD -- it feels like it's about time to do a swap to avoid unpleasant, failure-based surprises. Then I'd ship the 5700 to my brother, who is way more of a PC gamer than I am. The only hitch I see in this plan is that the 4700G doesn't officially exist yet. But that just means I have a new piece of hardware to fixate on as I scavenge for news each day.
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May 11, 2020 00:30
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I had bought a 2700X and Asus Crosshair VII Hero with the intent to move up to Zen 3 once it came out, but if I'm not going to be able to move up to Zen 3 now, I'm trying to figure out whether it'd be good to pick up a 3700X now when on-sale before it potentially becomes in demand from others who can't upgrade to Zen 3 either, or just wait to see how far it drops when Zen 3 does come out.
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May 11, 2020 06:39
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Klyith posted:The 8700k was not available until the very end of 2017, I would have had to get a 7700 or 7800. Add the mobo to the 8700K and it's at most a tie in price (8700K: $380, leaving only $120 for the motherboard which isn't a lot on the intel side). I wrote on par or ahead of, keeping in mind that the 8700k has overclocking headroom to at least 4.8 GHz while the 3700X already runs at optimum frequency out of the box. If you’re going to pick at 1-2% in FPS and frametimes and take GPU upgrades into account then this discussion is moot anyway, because none of it takes the effects of memory speed and timings into account. We can just agree to disagree. orcane posted:Totally not worth it, why do you even want to upgrade your AMD CPUs just should have bought Intel. Ur stoopid. On a different note, I always enjoyed that the posters in the AMD and Intel thread were relatively conciliatory and factual in this corner of the internet. Looking back my own posting was probably too inflammatory, I didn’t mean to question a purchase that people appear to be emotionally invested in, I was merely trying to point out that the $1k 7900X was not the only option back then.
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May 11, 2020 07:45
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I don’t think most of the posters in either the AMD or the Intel threads are actually that emotionally invested in the product stack, or at the very least, it’s nothing in comparison to the Mac threads.
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May 11, 2020 08:43
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SourKraut posted:I don’t think most of the posters in either the AMD or the Intel threads are actually that emotionally invested in the product stack, or at the very least, it’s nothing in comparison to the Mac threads. Now take a moment and imagine a world where Mac used AMD processors exclusively.
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May 11, 2020 08:56
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SourKraut posted:I don’t think most of the posters in either the AMD or the Intel threads are actually that emotionally invested in the product stack, or at the very least, it’s nothing in comparison to the Mac threads. To the extent anyone here is emotionally invested in anything, it would be from the angle of "hey did AMD just gently caress me" and not "guys stop saying mean things about AMD omfg" If you know on day one that you need all of the hertzes for clicking heads at 144fps or CAD modeling 3d-printed adult novelties, then sure, buying Intel probably made more sense. Seems like a lot of folks are missing the idea that having the option to upgrade and extend the life of your existing hardware has some value for those whose needs might change over time. It's not just an exercise in penny-pinching.
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May 11, 2020 10:45
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Aside from one or two people, AMD/Intel discussions are always very mature here. People don't spend 90% of their energy zealously defending their purchases the way you see in your usual neckbeard wars on the internet. (Partly because we're just too old for that poo poo.)
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May 11, 2020 12:43
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eames posted:Looking back my own posting was probably too inflammatory, I didn’t mean to question a purchase that people appear to be emotionally invested in, I was merely trying to point out that the $1k 7900X was not the only option back then. I'm super emotionally invested in people not saying I should spend twice as much money on a PC, and doubly so when they're factually wrong in their justification. Nothing to do with what name is on the label. If someone else wants to spend $2000 on their PC, that's their money and not my business. If someone else will only buy Intel CPUs for their PC, go with god. But when those people tell other people that they're wrong for buying price/performance at lower budgets that really gets my hackles up. Doubly so when they go on to push false reasons for why they're correct to spend that money. "PC gear depreciates quick, more expensive poo poo depreciates faster" is like the most basic and consistent rule in the business. I don't know how someone can argue the other side without some really whack need for self-justification. That wasn't you, you just happened to jump in to defend a really bad post. And you should have read more closely: K8.0 claimed the AMD system would always be worse. All you showed was that an 8700K was at best a tie, in games only. So even now I'm kinda annoyed that you're putting it down to AMD fanboyism rather than looking critically at your assumptions and saying "hey maybe I'm wrong."
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May 11, 2020 15:02
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I just accept when I build a new PC that I'm going to use it for 5+ years with maybe a graphics card and RAM upgrade, and have to replace almost everything when the CPU eventually isn't fast enough or the mobo dies. Whether it's AMD or Intel inside.
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May 11, 2020 21:15
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I'd be tempted to upgrade to Zen 3 despite this non-X 2600 being perfectly good and I feel like there's a bunch of people in the same boat. Cutting support for older boards just seems like an unnecessary self-own on AMDs part.
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May 11, 2020 22:38
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For fucks sake about the chipset fans lmfao
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May 11, 2020 22:56
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So I've noticed something with my 2700x setup. No clue how long it has been happening. My voltages and idle temps are really high. I've had a custom PE4 setting with an undervolt running since I pretty much built this setup. x470 crosshair VII and a coolermaster 360 something AIO. The only changes to the setup I've made are that I upgraded my case fans and moved some of my old ones to the bottom of the case to blow on the GPU. The case is a Lian Li O11 Dynamic. Basically, my idle voltages are well above 1.4V and my idle temps are also high, which I assume are related to this, at 51 C. This setup used to run what are pretty normal idle temps for a 2700x and it would be a hair under 1.4V under load in game. I turned PBO off and went to a PE1 setting and the voltages are now averaging at 1.45V when they were about 1.415V with the much more aggressive overclock. What's the deal? I updated to the latest BIOS today to make sure it wasn't some reading error but it's all the same and it's confirmed with Ryzen Master. e: loaded optimized defaults from the BIOS and it's back to normal 2700x stuff I believe. This might be fun to figure out. e2: I think it might be the lighting software for my keyboard  e3: chrome does it too. The temps are way better now though and I've gone back to my overclock profile. fknlo fucked around with this message at 03:13 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 01:46
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Arzachel posted:I'd be tempted to upgrade to Zen 3 despite this non-X 2600 being perfectly good and I feel like there's a bunch of people in the same boat. Cutting support for older boards just seems like an unnecessary self-own on AMDs part. I mean this was my boat. I intended on getting a 2700 to move to the 4700X to maximize the value of the move, at the time the best, most affordable board I could get to absolutely make sure I could run whatever Zen3 was the X470 Taichi. Now I may have to just have to give the board away with the processor when I'd have rather just keep the board.
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May 12, 2020 02:25
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FuturePastNow posted:I just accept when I build a new PC that I'm going to use it for 5+ years with maybe a graphics card and RAM upgrade, and have to replace almost everything when the CPU eventually isn't fast enough or the mobo dies. Whether it's AMD or Intel inside. Same here. I already bumped my RAM from 16 to 32 (4x8) and GPU so now I'm just hoping this configuration lasts me a good long while. I wish SSD prices weren't sky-high here in Canada but what can ya do?
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May 12, 2020 03:18
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Crunchy Black posted:For fucks sake about the chipset fans lmfao Make the fans (addressable) RGB cowards
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May 12, 2020 03:24
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I feel like I was lucky with the timing and grabbing an X570 for this build.
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May 12, 2020 03:35
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Crunchy Black posted:For fucks sake about the chipset fans lmfao We're assembling a crack posting team of unironic Noctua buyers to let you know how angry you need to feel about them
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May 12, 2020 03:53
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+ bonus points for owning a silent typhoon
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May 12, 2020 04:05
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CaptainSarcastic posted:I feel like I was lucky with the timing and grabbing an X570 for this build. I feel this mess is AMD's fault in their communication rather than being malicious for the sake of profits. They should have stated that B450 and X470 would not be supported months ago. It's no good publicly stating the AM4 will be supported until 2020 since the implication is strong that the second most recent chipset would be supported for Ryzen 4000. Otherwise it's only people buying Ryzen 4000 AND a B550 mobo while using their old RAM from a previous Ryzen build who would benefit from such news. Which is a limited consumer base. AMD deserve a bucket of poo poo poured over themselves for it.
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May 12, 2020 09:42
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If they told everyone that, fewer people would buy new mobos. Is this everyone’s first experience with how the world operates?
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May 12, 2020 16:50
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