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Kale posted:Late response to this due to catching up on the thread and replying in real time, but the way I've always understood it is the French counted on the Maginot line working to slow down any possible German advance after World War II and figured it impregnable before the Blitzkrieg strategy was deployed and German Panzers went around it and into Paris before the French could even mount a proper counter-response. Basically like combination arrogance and relying outdated military tactics and defense strategy from WWI. If the French army actually got to fight back on the terms they expected I think that whole affair turns out quite differently and you have the French and British allies fighting the Germans to a standstill somewhere around the Belgian border and things either bogging down into a much earlier Battle of the Bulge type scenario and the Germans eventually just being forced back. The French/BEF (British Expeditionary Forces) didn't think the battle would be fought along the Maginot line, they expected the decisive battle would be fought in Belgium so their plan was to to immediately invade and meet the thrust of the German assault there. Note the Belgians never gave permission for this. The French actually had better tanks, and the largest field army in Europe at the time. And the Germans DID invade Belgium, and the Netherlands, just like the Allies thought they would. What they didn't expect the Germans to do was to move the bulk of their armor through the Adrennes which the allies thought was impassible for armor....and flank them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sedan_(1940) Combine that with serious Allied disorganization, and the Allies commanders being shockingly inept, and you have a route where German Panzer formations are suddenly tearing up your rear, and that route continued all the way to the Dunkirk Coast. At the same time, the Germans established early air superiority and just relentlessly harassed the retreating allied forces, preventing them making any kind of organized defensive stand. If the French/British forces had been better organized and commanded they could have easily stopped the Blitzkrieg right there in Belgium.
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May 11, 2020 19:19
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Solaris 2.0 posted:The French/BEF (British Expeditionary Forces) didn't think the battle would be fought along the Maginot line, they expected the decisive battle would be fought in Belgium so their plan was to to immediately invade and meet the thrust of the German assault there. Note the Belgians never gave permission for this. There was also problems with coordination within units: The French had a great Army, but there was no coordination between Tanks and Infantry, and the French High Command had shunned radios, preferring to send their commands by motorcycle courier, which meant anytime they got a command out, by the time the courier got there, the Germans had already passed by the unit receiving the orders or destroyed them.
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May 11, 2020 19:23
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When even Maggie is taking shots at Trumps dumbassery https://twitter.com/maggieNYT/status/1259911374718881793
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May 11, 2020 19:26
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CommieGIR posted:There was also problems with coordination within units: The French had a great Army, but there was no coordination between Tanks and Infantry, and the French High Command had shunned radios, preferring to send their commands by motorcycle courier, which meant anytime they got a command out, by the time the courier got there, the Germans had already passed by the unit receiving the orders or destroyed them. This could be incorrect, but I also recall hearing that the French had gotten so especially jobbed in WWI that they were still lacking in men.
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May 11, 2020 19:26
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Sarcastr0 posted:This could be incorrect, but I also recall hearing that the French had gotten so especially jobbed in WWI that they were still lacking in men. There'd been a massive conscription, units were well manned. In fact the conscription had been so efficient, they had to recall skilled laborers who got conscripted, because factories were unable to produce new armaments and equipment after conscription kicked off. Like, the French were only under 50k men in parity with the German army, otherwise they had more equipment.
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May 11, 2020 19:28
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CommieGIR posted:The be far: Portraying the French as chicken is unfair. Their leadship threw up their hands but French actions around Dunkirk and other areas was aggressive. Also the French right wing thought Hitler had the right idea and welcomed a fascist conquest of their country because it would put an end to the degeneracy of democracy and they'd get to be in charge. Petain and friends jumped at the chance to pressure a government confused by the rapid advances of German troops to resign and surrender rather than counterattack German units that were out of supply with breaking-down tanks.
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May 11, 2020 19:30
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:When even Maggie is taking shots at Trumps dumbassery yeah. he is gonna run on that and the GOP is probably gonna run on gutting healthcare because the moron base likes that and they are idiots.
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May 11, 2020 19:31
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VitalSigns posted:Also the French right wing thought Hitler had the right idea and welcomed a fascist conquest of their country because it would put an end to the degeneracy of democracy and they'd get to be in charge. Yup, in fact they blamed the German victory on Marxism "weakening" the French, rather than sheer incompetence in French High Command.
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May 11, 2020 19:34
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there's a lot of debate over how the french acted under german occupation, but even though there's general agreement that the french resistance played no meaningful role in actually defeating the Germans, or was a widespread, centrally organized movement, it also doesn't mean that the French welcomed the Nazis with open arms. the smarter question to ask isn't "how did the French feel about the Nazis?" but rather "what could the French DO about the Nazis?" here's a great approachable book on the subject if you're interested: https://www.amazon.com/Choices-Vich...89222077&sr=8-5
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May 11, 2020 19:36
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https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1259660237860151296 welp. fun times for today.
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May 11, 2020 19:37
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:When even Maggie is taking shots at Trumps dumbassery Maggie be pivoting to get into Biden’s good graces so he won’t cut off her A C C E S S if he wins.
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May 11, 2020 19:37
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VitalSigns posted:Also the French right wing thought Hitler had the right idea and welcomed a fascist conquest of their country because it would put an end to the degeneracy of democracy and they'd get to be in charge. please stop making bad posts. petain and his friends didn't "jump" at the chance to convince the french to surrender and you apparently don't know anything about the french military.
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May 11, 2020 19:38
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Sarcastr0 posted:This could be incorrect, but I also recall hearing that the French had gotten so especially jobbed in WWI that they were still lacking in men. one of the prevailing theories of why the French did so poorly in 1940 is because of the continued psychological (and practical) consequences of their manpower strategies in WW1 and at Verdun. Alistair Horne in particular has argued that the French strategy of rapidly rotating units in and out of the front lines at Verdun (as opposed to the German strategy of leaving units at the front until they were reduced to ineffective) meant that a far larger proportion of the French army was exposed to what was perhaps the worst battlefield of the entire war, which both was psychologically damaging in and of itself, but also encouraged the French to believe that a strong defensive posture was more effective than a strong offensive posture, leading them to commit far too many resources to defensive positions. other fun reasons why France did badly in WW2: * france was in a state of virtual of civil war during the 1930s which prevented both the development of a nationalist spirit (which would've helped armies stay together after suffering terrible defeats in the opening days of the war) or the political organization to field an effective army * france's "success" in ww1 prevented the continued innovation of military strategy because, hey, they won and the germans lost, so they must be right * france had a low birth rate which prevented them from replacing their dead in a timely fashion * france did a much worse job in recovering from the great depression so was poorer than its peers Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 19:42
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:please stop making bad posts. petain and his friends didn't "jump" at the chance to convince the french to surrender and you apparently don't know anything about the french military. yes they did lol, french fascists were absolutely delighted at the republic's defeat
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May 11, 2020 19:49
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Earlier experiences can indeed provoke disastrous tactics. See also: the Demyansk Pocket and the air supply that would later convince Hitler and Göring that the 6th army at Stalingrad would be fine with some airdrops.
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May 11, 2020 19:50
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yep - france's victory in ww1 both led them to draw the wrong conclusions and also prevented manpower turnover, so they were led by older "experienced" generals who also were unwilling to order millions of soldiers to their deaths after witnessing the horrors of WW1 first hand, and actually saw peace under occupation as a preferable alternative to another ten million graves.
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May 11, 2020 19:54
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VitalSigns posted:yes they did lol, french fascists were absolutely delighted at the republic's defeat petain was not a fascist in 1940. read a book.
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May 11, 2020 19:55
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BigglesSWE posted:Earlier experiences can indeed provoke disastrous tactics. See also: the Demyansk Pocket and the air supply that would later convince Hitler and Göring that the 6th army at Stalingrad would be fine with some airdrops. Everyone knew the 6th Army wasn't going to be fine with airdrops because the amount of material they needed and the airlift capacity of the luftwaffe were both known and, uh, not close to each other. Goring just promised it anyway because he was an incompetent moron who wanted to look good, and there weren't other options.
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May 11, 2020 19:57
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:petain was not a fascist in 1940. read a book. true but he was a useful idiot for them. the facists took advantage of petain not wanting to bleed france to death and than petain became one himself officially afterward. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 19:57
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:there's a lot of debate over how the french acted under german occupation, but even though there's general agreement that the french resistance played no meaningful role in actually defeating the Germans, or was a widespread, centrally organized movement, it also doesn't mean that the French welcomed the Nazis with open arms. My impression was that there were some Resistance projects that actually made a difference (e.g., gathering intelligence on the Normandy coastline's defenses and sending it to the British). But the actual guerrilla activities, as opposed to espionage, probably didn't accomplish much.
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May 11, 2020 19:58
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:petain was not a fascist in 1940. read a book. he absolutely was, he blamed the defeat on the moral degeneracy of the Republic, illegally abolished democracy in France, set up his own fascist regime, and enthusiastically went way beyond anything the Nazis required his government to do why don't you read a book lmao https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9volution_nationale unless you're trying to make some semantic argument like "Petain was never issued an official NSDAP membership card", you're wrong E: Petain was horrified at the thought of mass graves, that's why he rounded up the Jews to be murdered ayup VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 19:59
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Silver2195 posted:My impression was that there were some Resistance projects that actually made a difference (e.g., gathering intelligence on the Normandy coastline's defenses and sending it to the British). But the actual guerrilla activities, as opposed to espionage, probably didn't accomplish much. eh dead nazis mean less nazis. but yeah pretty much. resistance stuff is all about slow little cuts to the occupying force. obviously some of the actions worked bigger than others. but if it wastes the nazis resources needlessly than its overall good.
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May 11, 2020 20:02
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VitalSigns posted:he absolutely was, he blamed the defeat on the moral degeneracy of the Republic, illegally abolished democracy in France, set up his own fascist regime, and enthusiastically went way beyond anything the Nazis required his government to do please read your own loving links. petain was not a fascist prior to Vichy (and there is significant debate over if Vichy was a fascist state vs. an authoritarian state), he was a conservative who was part of a sitting government in which the majority of the cabinet voted to surrender as opposed to either flee to africa and continue to fight or join as a quasi-national state with england. you said that petain and his fascist friends conspired to trick france into surrendering because they wanted to be nazis, which is untrue on multiple levels. there is no evidence that france was somehow in a position to defeat the germans on the continent, that petain was part of a fascist cabal, that petain was a fascist in early 1940, or that petain was part of a plot to help Germany seize France.
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May 11, 2020 20:03
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https://twitter.com/Gizmodo/status/1259288036082360320 https://twitter.com/Kotaku/status/1259895112152293377
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May 11, 2020 20:03
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:When even Maggie is taking shots at Trumps dumbassery Lol Trump will literally ask people if they’re better of now than 4 years ago.
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May 11, 2020 20:05
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Yes that's Lis Smith, maybe the dumbest political consultant working today
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May 11, 2020 20:05
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Silver2195 posted:My impression was that there were some Resistance projects that actually made a difference (e.g., gathering intelligence on the Normandy coastline's defenses and sending it to the British). But the actual guerrilla activities, as opposed to espionage, probably didn't accomplish much. sure, there were some meaningful resistance actions, but compared to resistance in the occupied east it was night in day - in part, though, because the germans treated these territories much harsher than they did occupied france. its hard to motivate someone to kill nazis despite guaranteed retaliation when your life hasn't changed that much (note this does not mean that the french welcomed the germans or collaborated with them)
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May 11, 2020 20:06
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Bugsy posted:https://twitter.com/Gizmodo/status/1259288036082360320 Attention all Fortnite gamers: Joe Biden is in great danger, and he needs your help to wipe all the squads in the Tilted Towers. But to do This, he needs a gold SCAR, and a couple of Chug Jugs. To help him, all he needs is your credit card number, the three digits on the back, and the expiration month and year. But, you gotta be quick so that Joe Biden can secure the bag and achieve the EPIC VICTORY ROYALE
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May 11, 2020 20:06
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this was a stupid headline by gizmodo what happened was they reached a confidential settlement, the motion to dismiss the case is not him tucking his tail and running away (the settlement might be, but we don't know)
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May 11, 2020 20:06
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:please read your own loving links. petain was not a fascist prior to Vichy (and there is significant debate over if Vichy was a fascist state vs. an authoritarian state), he was a conservative who was part of a sitting government in which the majority of the cabinet voted to surrender as opposed to either flee to africa and continue to fight or join as a quasi-national state with england. Petain was a great guy who just woke up on the wrong side of the bed one morning and hated Jews and established a fascist dictatorship, okay German generals themselves wrote about how their flanking maneuver was a gigantic risk and they could easily have been defeated if the French had counterattacked before they could be resupplied. I never said it was a mass conspiracy, that's a strawman you made up, but the desire of a significant part of the French government to become a Nazi client state contributed to the defeatism and paralysis at the top.
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May 11, 2020 20:07
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VitalSigns posted:he absolutely was, he blamed the defeat on the moral degeneracy of the Republic, illegally abolished democracy in France, set up his own fascist regime, and enthusiastically went way beyond anything the Nazis required his government to do its more he was horrified about HIS men in mass graves. i mean yeah he was a chud and was nazi bootlicker and should have been shot but alot of the reason him and other military types bent the knee so fast was they assumed the war would just turn into the Great war part 2 with massive trench lines and mass graves. i mean gently caress the rear end in a top hat. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 20:10 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 20:08
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my guess is google lawyer team knocked on his door and layed out how hosed he was if he continued this poo poo probably because they have all his data and all the "secret" poo poo he thinks he hid.
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May 11, 2020 20:10
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Dapper_Swindler posted:its more he was horrofied about HIS men in mass graves. i mean yeah he was a chud and was nazi bootlicker and should have been shot but alot of the reason him and other military types bent the knee so fast was they assumed the war would just turn into the Great war part 2 with massive trench lines and mass graves. i mean gently caress the rear end in a top hat. Yeah but it turned into that in WW1 and they didn't want to surrender because they didn't want imperial German hegemony over the continent, they would throw infinite numbers of young men into mass graves rather than lose their own empire In WW2 they were fine with it because they thought the Nazi project was great and the French Republic was weak and degenerate, so what was the point of resisting when this Hitler chap is the future anyway
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May 11, 2020 20:11
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VitalSigns posted:Petain was a great guy who just woke up on the wrong side of the bed one morning and hated Jews and established a fascist dictatorship, okay please provide evidence of "the desire of a significant part of the French government to become a Nazi client state" considering thats an opinion that no historian holds, anywhere. also please provide evidence that pre-Vichy Petain was part of French fascist movements and wasn't a French conservative politician who recently left retirement.
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May 11, 2020 20:12
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:please provide evidence of "the desire of a significant part of the French government to become a Nazi client state" considering thats an opinion that no historian holds, anywhere. also please provide evidence that pre-Vichy Petain was part of French fascist movements and wasn't a French conservative political who recently left retirement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_Union#World_War_II_(1940) quote:At the 5 p.m. cabinet meeting, many called it a British "last minute plan" to steal its colonies, and said that "be[ing] a Nazi province" was preferable to becoming a British dominion. Philippe Pétain, a leader of the pro-armistice group, called union "fusion with a corpse".
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May 11, 2020 20:14
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yronic heroism posted:Lol Trump will literally ask people if they’re better of now than 4 years ago.
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May 11, 2020 20:14
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RBA Starblade posted:Attention all Fortnite gamers: Joe Biden is in great danger, and he needs your help to wipe all the squads in the Tilted Towers. But to do This, he needs a gold SCAR, and a couple of Chug Jugs. To help him, all he needs is your credit card number, the three digits on the back, and the expiration month and year. But, you gotta be quick so that Joe Biden can secure the bag and achieve the EPIC VICTORY ROYALE
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May 11, 2020 20:14
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RBA Starblade posted:Attention all Fortnite gamers: Joe Biden is in great danger, and he needs your help to wipe all the squads in the Tilted Towers. But to do This, he needs a gold SCAR, and a couple of Chug Jugs. To help him, all he needs is your credit card number, the three digits on the back, and the expiration month and year. But, you gotta be quick so that Joe Biden can secure the bag and achieve the EPIC VICTORY ROYALE also pretty sure most folks who play fortnite can't vote. because they are like 10.
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May 11, 2020 20:16
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but it turned into that in WW1 and they didn't want to surrender because they didn't want imperial German hegemony over the continent, they would throw infinite numbers of young men into mass graves rather than lose their own empire you are discussing a well-known subject with such a complete lack of any actual knowledge that it's really difficult to discuss where on earth to begin suffice to say that the theory you are peddling here makes intelligent design look well-researched and well-supported by mainstream thought, and nobody at all should be reading this and thinking "huh i didn't know that": you, reader, did not know any of this stuff because it's complete ahistorical nonsense the french army was broken and beaten when they surrendered, that's why they surrendered. "aha, i see the weakness in the german lines, which we could smash into and win the war - but don't, we secretly want to lose the war and forced into a humiliating surrender!" was, uh, not a thing that happened at all
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May 11, 2020 20:16
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