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I don't think there's any argument that Freddy is the greatest slasher of all time and the premise is brilliant. Scream never should have been a franchise, but always at least pleasantly surprised me. A Nightmare on Elm Street just constantly broke my heart because they should be these great movies and even the good ones seem lacking in polish. I'm voting against it because I'm obsessed with Scream and do sincerely like the sequels enough or at least they average to be more consistent than Nightmare. Scream is batting .700 for me as opposed to Nightmare where I only really like 1 and 3 while appreciating the hell out of 2 and New Nightmare while having an entry that is heads and shoulders the best between the two franchises. But in my demented logic, I just feel like voting against the franchise out of respect to Freddy. It's unfair that Child's Play and Friday the 13th average out to be more consistent in quality over a series where every entry is essentially born on third base. Like I totally agree with Fran. I would be more excited for a new Freddy movie--way more than Scream 5--but that just speaks to a franchise that has overall been a letdown. And for that it should burn.
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May 11, 2020 18:09
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One thing that's getting glossed over in the discussion of Freddy's bad sequels is that he made a very impressive comeback. Like, if the Hellraiser series or Candyman or Tremors ever came back strong years after people thought their best days were behind them, I think they would've been considered much stronger contenders. NOES actually managed to do that, people really thought the character had been run into the ground and then Craven came back very strong with New Nightmare, and Freddy vs. Jason made over 100 million(and fans really like it). So I think NOES deserves a lot of credit for pulling that off.
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May 11, 2020 18:13
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The fact that they are making a Scream 5 is baffling to me. Scream 1 was a meta-commentary about slasher movies. Scream 2 at least had some meta-commentary about sequels. Scream 3 tried to continue this premise with trilogies but that was obviously a huge stretch. Scream 4 was a meta-commentary about reboots. What would Scream 5 possibly be about that's worth doing? What is left?
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May 11, 2020 18:26
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Timeless Appeal posted:I don't think there's any argument that Freddy is the greatest slasher of all time and the premise is brilliant. I just don't see any of the Nightmare movies--even the worst ones--as failures in any way. There is a dip in quality starting with 4, due to shooting schedules and budgets and Freddie's growth as a pop culture icon, but each one brings ideas or visual effects or scenes that are good (well, maybe not Freddy's Dead). Even Dream Child has the Freddy's soul chest, the motorcycle death, the horrific force-feeding death. In addition to that, 6 of the Elm Street films are 90-ish minutes. Dream Warriors is the longest at 96 minutes, Freddy Vs Jason is 97 minutes. Wes Craven's New Nightmare is the only one that's 2 hours long. So even the worst Freddy movie is done in no time. They're flawed, but most of them don't waste your time. And I will gladly give Wes Craven, Renny Harlin and Frank Darabont 90 minutes of my time for a fun little horror film. Now, that's another point in Child's Play's favor as well. All of the CP and Chucky movies are less than 90 minutes. Curse of Chucky, the longest one, is 98 minutes long. Meanwhile, every single Scream film is 2 hours long. The original is an anomoly, because it's so tightly paced that even though 45 minutes pass without murder or escalation, the film is still tense. Kudos for that. However, none of the other films have that tight punch, and could all use some editing. Scream 3 and 4 especially wear their length, and it's wearisome. The fact that Scream sequels takes 2 hours with diminishing results by repeating the same concept with more meta jokes, the Freddy films (except New Nightmare and Freddy's Dead) are still delivering interesting ideas in tighter packaging, even though they keep to the same premise. edit: Oh, and Angelo Badalamenti did the music for Dream Warriors, so that's another Elm Street point. I'm scrolling through Marco Baltrami's list of scores right now and couldn't hum any of their melodies to you. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 18:56
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After watching so many bad horror sequels the last 2 months I've really come to appreciate Nightmare on Elm's Street's bad sequels. Are there some bad ones? Yes. But are they unwatchable, boring, cheap cash ins with no legitimacy or connection to the franchise, or anything like that? No. At your absolute worse you've got Englund hamming it up and doing crazy poo poo and there's a lot worse things to watch than that. And I definitely rather watch that then an increasing snowball of "meta".
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May 11, 2020 19:00
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Sarx posted:The fact that they are making a Scream 5 is baffling to me. Scream 5 is gonna be a Nightmare crossover and a commentary on cinematic universes.
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May 11, 2020 19:02
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What are the worst Elm Street moments? -Invisible Freddy kung-fu death sucks (the original sequence sounds pretty great, though) -Not a big fan of time-loop motorcycle ride, but I appreciate what it's doing -Nightmare on Elm Street 2010 -Freddy origin story nun gang rape I really don't remember most of Freddy's Dead, to be honest. I remember "PUT ON THE GLASSES" and then the lead actress crossing her arms and saying "Freddy's Dead" *smile* at the end.
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May 11, 2020 19:04
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Most of what I remember from Freddy's Dead is Roseanne and Tom, the dream demons, the whole daughter plot, "every town has an Elm Street", and 'Happy Father's Day, daddy." If nothing else its got good one liners. Also Freddy's daughter is Billy Zane's sister. So how can you hate this?
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May 11, 2020 19:09
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Sarx posted:The fact that they are making a Scream 5 is baffling to me. 30-years-later sequels like The Force Awakens that recycle the first film, or ones like Crystal Skull that fail to capture the magic. That or sequels that ignore everything but the first entry ala the new Halloween. Honestly the latter would be super interesting, if they just wiped 2, 3, and 4 off the map and did a direct sequel to the first, but the ended up getting super meta about the new continuity that "didn't happen." feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 20:25
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Franchescanado posted:I just don't see any of the Nightmare movies--even the worst ones--as failures in any way. Whereas with Scream, I get to hangout with my movie murder buddies.
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May 11, 2020 20:29
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I AM THE WIZARD WARRIOR is the cringiest part of that entire franchise. edit: I will admit to kind of liking Freddy's Dead if only because that movie is kind of schlocky fun. The Dream Child is one of the worst movies I've ever seen.
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May 11, 2020 20:35
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Nightmare 5 is the biggest disappointment. It has this weird tone where all of the fun of the previous two movies is just gone, but it's still in goofy Freddy mindset. How can you have a scene where your villain rides a skateboard inside the panels of a comic book before turning into Super Freddy and it not be any fun at all? I get the feeling Hopkins probably wanted to do his serious gothic Freddy movie but had to keep the audience-pleasing MTV Freddy thing going, so it's a mess of cool imagery and lame setpieces that make you feel like crap. Really don't like the score either.
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May 11, 2020 20:40
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TrixRabbi posted:I AM THE WIZARD WARRIOR is the cringiest part of that entire franchise. Oh man, I like the Wizard Warrior. It's so goofy and ridiculously sincere that it just works.
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May 11, 2020 20:50
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Wizard Master owns.
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May 11, 2020 20:51
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Origami Dali posted:Nightmare 5 is the biggest disappointment. It has this weird tone where all of the fun of the previous two movies is just gone, but it's still in goofy Freddy mindset. How can you have a scene where your villain rides a skateboard inside the panels of a comic book before turning into Super Freddy and it not be any fun at all? I get the feeling Hopkins probably wanted to do his serious gothic Freddy movie but had to keep the audience-pleasing MTV Freddy thing going, so it's a mess of cool imagery and lame setpieces that make you feel like crap. Really don't like the score either. This nails it perfectly. Just an abysmal affair all around. Like Freddy's Dead at least hits a consistent tone, which after watching 4 and 5 back-to-back it played better for me. I'm not saying it's good, but 4 is more dreadful than a lot of y'all apologists are admitting and 5 would be the worst of the series were it not for the remake.
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May 11, 2020 20:51
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I do recant my previous statement and admit that Freddy's Dead is a failure since I barely remember anything about it now.
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May 11, 2020 20:52
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Franchescanado posted:I guess it's not fair a point to weigh in on Franchises as established, but if you were to tell me there was a new Elm Street movie in the works (not just in talks, as of late), I'd be completely excited. There is a Scream sequel in the works, and I just don't care. I don't see the point of continuing Scream, and I especially don't like how each sequel kinda makes the over-arching plot of Sydney Prescott being the most unlucky poo poo-upon person in existence. I still think Jackie Earle Haley can have a good Freddy performance in him, if they would COMMIT to that take on him as being as super-sleazy as possible. One of the major problems with the Elm Street reboot was that they had plonked a late sequel Freddy conceit ("micro naps") into a Part 1 straight reboot, while also trying to tie in a "Freddy was innocent" take chained to that interpretation (but also lightening it up with a bunch of one-lines in the final act almost out of nowhere). Any one of them would have been effective, but you couldn't have all 4 working against each other in an 85 minute movie. Also, I still say Scream 4 dropped the ball by not having Sydney's evil cousin come out as Ghost Face and kill everyone in the movie, thus setting up a potential Scream 5 where a new new copy cat starts stalking the previous one. Make her have to walk a tightrope of trying to stay alive while also keeping her secret from spilling out, and keep the audience on its toes as to whether its loyalty could reside in this character or not. It'd be a gamble, sure, but the payoff could have been really interesting.
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May 11, 2020 22:33
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I remember JEH talking poo poo about Freddy as a character, the Elm Street series, and I believe Englund's performance, in a holier-than-thou approach to salvaging his rep with the film bombing. Killed a lot of good will I had towards the guy.
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May 11, 2020 22:35
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Franchescanado posted:I remember JEH talking poo poo about Freddy as a character, the Elm Street series, and I believe Englund's performance, in a holier-than-thou approach to salvaging his rep with the film bombing. Killed a lot of good will I had towards the guy. That, I was unaware of. And yeah, that's not cool to do, even if you do believe that you would need to make sure to get out from underneath a box office flop.
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May 11, 2020 22:44
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Class3KillStorm posted:That, I was unaware of. And yeah, that's not cool to do, even if you do believe that you would need to make sure to get out from underneath a box office flop. I will always appreciate what I call the Michael Caine approach. "I have not seen Jaws 4: The Revenge, but I have seen the house it bought." And Betsy Palmer's "I don't care much for horror movies, but Friday the 13th bought me a new car. All the fans are pretty sweet though, so I guess I did something right."
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May 11, 2020 22:52
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Franchescanado posted:I remember JEH talking poo poo about Freddy as a character, the Elm Street series, and I believe Englund's performance, in a holier-than-thou approach to salvaging his rep with the film bombing. Killed a lot of good will I had towards the guy. Yeah it seemed like the whole Nightmare remake just didn't... Get Freddy. Or didn't like Freddy? I dunno, it's so weird.
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May 11, 2020 23:16
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It also felt like a DTV sequel. There was so little drama during during the origin flashbacks, and practically no imagination or inventiveness when it came to the cinematography. It was just very mediocre.
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May 11, 2020 23:28
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Sarx posted:I love Pinhead and the concept of Cenobites and the Lament Configuration. There's tons of good ideas in this franchise, but as somebody who binge watched all of them in a row recently I stand by this statement: There are no good Hellraiser movies. Anyway, I finished. Revelations. Woof. To call this a found footage film would be a lie. That might have been kind of interesting and different. To call this a movie about people who found footage might also have been kind of interesting and different but would also be untrue. Instead this movie just starts found footage for one scene and then abandons the premise entirely, even in the flashbacks where found footage would have been the medium. I figure one of two things happened. Either they started to make a found footage film and then they realized that it made it harder to have to stick to the conventions of the sub genre and give a reason for stuff to be filmed and abandoned it, or they realized their film looked like crap and had a half clever idea to lower the viewer's expectations by making it seem like a found footage film before introducing the film that just looked bad. I could almost respect that. The funny thing is even the handful of found footage scenes don’t actually make sense or sync up. Also its a quasi-incest porn because those are so trendy these days. This is a bad movie but at this stage that seemed redundant and there’s actually probably the vague resemblance of a better story in here than most of the other sequels. Although that’s probably because it kind of steals from the original story a fair bit. But as bad as this was it was actually less boring than the last few. It also has a brisk 75 minute run time! Judgement. Weirdly I was kind of hoping this one would be about the sister. I wasn’t invested in her or anything, I just thought it would be funny for fake Pinhead to have been right. This movie was gross. Like not in the usual Hellraiser way, or in a morally gross way. It just was gross with sounds and slurping and licking and slime and icky I lost my appetite. What is it with so many of these Hellraiser sequels being crime things? I guess there’s just a lot of bad crime scripts out there to shove Pinhead into. I’d love to say this was different with the hell/heaven stuff but it was kind of just gross, random whatever and just kind of ends up in the same place of some rear end in a top hat opening the box to try and make a deal and it ending bad. Almost all these sequels are basically just that scene tossed onto the end of a bad crime thing. Thank God I’m done. So in conclusion… Hellraiser franchise bad. Purely on a ration of good films to bad films it might well be the worst I’ve watched during this. It probably got lucky to get this far. The end takeaway lesson should be that there are worse fates than falling to Evil Dead.
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May 12, 2020 03:07
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Franchescanado posted:What are the worst Elm Street moments? When you look at all the people saying "Yeah, Scream was clever and all, but I like the paedophile because he's funny."
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May 12, 2020 12:31
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He wasnt a pedo, he was a killer. Only 2010 introduced the pedo angle
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May 12, 2020 12:59
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I personally don't like my horror villains to be evil or have repulsive traits. That would be too frightening.
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May 12, 2020 13:04
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^ Yeah, but that's kind of a bullshit response though right? Like there really aren't voodoo burglars who possess toys or zombie hulks with hockey masks in the woods. Everyday evil and violence can sometimes be harrier to deal with. Rape and sexual assault are particularly tricky. It's actually probably a big mark against Evil Dead for me. ^Shrecknet posted:He wasnt a pedo, he was a killer. Only 2010 introduced the pedo angle But I do think the character works better with things played as more nebulous. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 14:00 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 13:55
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Timeless Appeal posted:^ Yeah, but that's kind of a bullshit response though right? Like there really aren't voodoo burglars who possess toys or zombie hulks with hockey masks in the woods. Everyday evil and violence can sometimes be harrier to deal with. Rape and sexual assault are particularly tricky. It's actually probably a big mark against Evil Dead for me. ^ Also they are all high school teens in films 1-3. Nancy's a Sophomore? Junior in HS? Freddy's pedophelia is insinuated in the first film, especially by Nancy's mom, and it's a constant throughout the series. FvJ introduces him by licking pictures of little girls to put in his scrapbook. Remake just decided to make it a literal plot point and obviously that didn't work. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 14:07 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 14:03
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Lurdiak posted:I personally don't like my horror villains to be evil or have repulsive traits. That would be too frightening. I don't have a problem with Freddy being evil, repulsive or even cruel. My problem is that the draw of the movies isn't people fighting Freddy, it's watching to see what Freddy does to them. That's fine for Friday the 13th - Jason is a mindless zombie with no motivation and the people he kills are rarely more than one note cyphers, so you may as well enjoy the silly effects - but with Freddy you're also taking pleasure in his cruelty. And yes, Freddy is a paedophile. There is adequate evidence of this in the first movie alone: the hand between Nancy's legs, the tongue coming out of the telephone. And any 80s pop psychologist would tell you there's a psychosexual element to the glove as well.
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May 12, 2020 14:15
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I actually think Freddy is an example of a slasher that isn't just all about watching teens get killed in creative ways. I mean, sure, that's one aspect of the films but a huge part of what makes NOES entertaining(at least in the good ones) is watching the kids figure things out and then somehow turning the tables on Freddy. That's certainly where most of the momentum comes from in the original and also Dream Warriors, these kids figure out what's going on but they're on their own, and they have to come up with a way to fight back against Freddy. I see it as empowering.
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May 12, 2020 14:36
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The 2010 remake focusing on the pedo angle is particularly gross when we have 20+ years of ex-post-facto knowledge of how Freddy became a cartoon caricature of himself - kid's toys, talk show appearances, a prime time TV show, collaborations with rappers, etc. He's no longer just "a villain monster in a movie made for adults", he's part of the cultural zeitgeist, and loved by kids (even if they're not aware of some of the darker parts of his backstory), so choosing to focus on those gross dark parts of his backstory is an awful choice. I'm not saying horror movie villains shouldn't be despicable, I'm just saying that Freddy is a unique cultural touchstone in that regard.
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May 12, 2020 14:56
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Basebf555 posted:I actually think Freddy is an example of a slasher that isn't just all about watching teens get killed in creative ways. I mean, sure, that's one aspect of the films but a huge part of what makes NOES entertaining(at least in the good ones) is watching the kids figure things out and then somehow turning the tables on Freddy. That's certainly where most of the momentum comes from in the original and also Dream Warriors, these kids figure out what's going on but they're on their own, and they have to come up with a way to fight back against Freddy. I see it as empowering.
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May 12, 2020 15:04
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Results! I did something a little different, let me know if you prefer this way to the old (and much easier) way: And it wasn't even particularly close. drat Halloween is good.  And it's gonna have to be, because Hannibal Lecter barely got an appetizer out of Kevin Bacon as the sweetheart story franchise goes down. Meanwhile, in the Springwood division:  There's no room for Sidney to be a part of everyone's favorite scary movie and Nancy/Heather advance to the Evil Eight.  Alright you primitive screwheads, you wanted this, so now let's see you vote like your lives depend on it. Evil Eight voting later today; do you guys want a full week+ to vote on/discuss all eight, or a five-ish day voting period doing two matchups on each side at a time?
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May 12, 2020 15:30
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I'd say two matchups at a time. I think putting out all eight at once is going to create a huge flurry of discussion, and then a long gap of silence. Like the Three Stooges trying to walk through a door at the same time
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May 12, 2020 16:39
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The graphics are fun but could you also put the names of the franchises below it? I had to look up who Ash destroyed since I didn’t recognize Kirsty at first under all that stuff. I don’t have a preference for the discussion.
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May 12, 2020 16:41
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COOL CORN posted:The 2010 remake focusing on the pedo angle is particularly gross when we have 20+ years of ex-post-facto knowledge of how Freddy became a cartoon caricature of himself - kid's toys, talk show appearances, a prime time TV show, collaborations with rappers, etc. He's no longer just "a villain monster in a movie made for adults", he's part of the cultural zeitgeist, and loved by kids (even if they're not aware of some of the darker parts of his backstory), so choosing to focus on those gross dark parts of his backstory is an awful choice. I dunno, I think that's a good case for why they should have changed up the approach with Freddy in the remake. There's a take almost there, bubbling under the surface, of making Freddy a metaphor for repressed trauma, which is an interesting appoach - the Freddy of the original is striking at the teens to get back at their parents, while the Freddy of the original had directly traumatized these teens when they were children. It makes the stakes more personal in a way the first pass wasn't (and, in the case of the original, making Freddy a molester now as a dream demon/insinuating he probably was as a human kind of muddies the "sins of the father" angle they were taking). There's also something to be said of the way that they choose to shoot and position Freddy as a looming figure in that preschool environment, as opposed to the boiler room from the original series. Film critic Walter Chaw caught onto it when it first came out - "He's disgusting and unrepentant, a bit of a bully, and, posing as he will throughout the film as a teacher at a blackboard, representative of the kinds of real nightmares parents have for their children." There was the chance for the remake to make Freddy scary in two different ways to two different generations - for kids and teens watching the remake, he can be a scary monster man with some metaphorical overtones; for adults that grew up with the original and have kids of their own, he could also be emblematic of a much deeper, very adult fear of children alone in a hostile world. That the remake didn't manage to do so is a shame; that it didn't do so because its focus was split in so many competing, contradictory directions is a crime.
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May 12, 2020 16:57
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We now have the 1 and 2 seeds facing each other in every bracket except one. Should be interesting.
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May 12, 2020 17:00
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Question Aren't at least one or two of the Scream killers rapists
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May 12, 2020 17:55
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Burkion posted:Question I believe Billy n Stu staged Maureens death to look like rape. However Maureen was raped as a young adult by several men and gave birth to Roman (killer in 3) as a result.
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May 12, 2020 18:21
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Nobody is cheering on the Scream killers though, a big appeal of the series is seeing them eat poo poo.
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May 12, 2020 18:29
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