|
Gwaihir posted:The deal is German DDs suck incredible rear end, while the UK line ends in one of the strongest DDs in the game. Thanks!
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 12:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
Ataxerxes posted:So what's the deal with German and British destroyers? I have mostly played the European and French ones, are those two torpedo boats or something else? German DDs are ostensibly cap bullies, with a long range offensive hydro that is supposed to let them push smoked up DDs out of caps with spotting and stealth firing. The problem is they have crap DPM and any of the gunboats, especially the ones with regular short range hydro, will just push back into them and sink them rapidly.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 12:29
|
|
|
I just realized today that the Daring has almost as much HE DPM as the Friesland, with the same fire chance, same number of shells per minute and effectively the same HE pen post IFHE rework. While also having torps and a heal.  I mean I knew it was good but that quantifies it, so now I might actually have to play that line. NTRabbit posted:German DDs are ostensibly cap bullies, with a long range offensive hydro that is supposed to let them push smoked up DDs out of caps with spotting and stealth firing. The problem is they have crap DPM and any of the gunboats, especially the ones with regular short range hydro, will just push back into them and sink them rapidly. In the Akizuki/Kitakaze I have won more than one engagement with a German DD smoke hydroing me by just blindfiring into the smoke. Then there's the Friesland, which also has German hydro but when built for guns has just about twice the Z-46's HE DPM. You can't actually use the hydro offensively though unless your opponent is an idiot who is just sitting in smoke without knowing you're around, because the lovely concealment means you'll get spotted wayyyy before you're in hydro range and the other guy will just turn around and leave, dropping torps behind him. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 12:37 on May 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 12:29
|
|
|
TheFluff posted:I just realized today that the Daring has almost as much HE DPM as the Friesland, with the same fire chance, same number of shells per minute and effectively the same HE pen post IFHE rework. While also having torps and a heal. After all of its recent nerfs Daring actually has more or less the same HE DPM as Gearing (but it is still better at setting fires). What makes it strong is that it also has the most versatile smoke, a heal, a defensive hydro, great acceleration and handling, and special AP that pretty much always gets full pens on other DDs. If you want to sit in a smoke and hold mouse1 then Kitakaze is still better than every T10 DD.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 13:42
|
|
|
davejk posted:After all of its recent nerfs Daring actually has more or less the same HE DPM as Gearing (but it is still better at setting fires). What makes it strong is that it also has the most versatile smoke, a heal, a defensive hydro, great acceleration and handling, and special AP that pretty much always gets full pens on other DDs. Daring AP is very bad vs other DDs, an in depth analysis from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/9yxzo0/daring_guide_make_her_your_darling/ Images: https://imgur.com/a/Ge48Wa4 quote:There is a clear difference between fighting DDs and fighting BBs. When you fight BBs, your AP can have a greater multiplier than your HE, such as penning the 32mm armor for 0.3x instead of shatter for 0x. However, with IFHE Daring have 24mm pen, which is enough for all DD plating except Khaba. This means as you fire, HE you will always get at least a 0.3x per hit, where as AP can overpen for 0.1x or bounce for 0x. In other words, even under the absolute optimal situation, where every single AP penetrates, the only difference you will get is the difference in alpha, namely 2100/1700 or 23.5% more. If your target is broadside, you will be scoring some overpens, compensating for the extra alpha damage from AP. And if the enemy DD knows how to angle, your AP will fail because you do not have overmatch. HE will also disable modules much more frequently than AP, either that is fires to keep the enemy DD lit or engine damage for easier subsequent hits. The times where you see Daring evaporate an enemy DD with AP is due to Daring’s DPM, HE would had done the exact same thing, with much more consistent results. Now, this was written back when Daring needed IFHE, but all of the points remain the same - unless every single shell of your AP full pens, you kill a DD quicker firing HE at it. I can almost guarantee you that every single shell of your AP will not full pen, in fact there will often be quite a few that don't, and you will end up needing to fire several more salvos than your HE to do the same damage. Now, the AP is certainly FAR better than other DD AP vs DDs, and it will actually hurt and kill things, but HE is still better vs DDs. Against more armored targets showing any kind of side, AP gets significantly more damage in because stray shells are more likely to pen things like upper belts etc, when your HE would just shatter.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 14:07
|
|
|
I do normally fire HE at other DDs in it (except Khaba, but when do you see those these days), it's just worth noting the short-fuse AP as another special advantage Daring gets for some reason. Meanwhile Z52 is supposed to be an AP-focused DD and has completely standard AP angles and fuses that just bounce or overpen constantly if you try using it on DDs.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 15:30
|
|
|
Short fuse AP is also loving murder against BB bow and stern 32mm plating. Forget superstructures, you rack up so much damage so fast it's insane.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 15:57
|
|
|
Patch dropped. New consumable art is cool and thematically in line with the captain skills and the new port has such glorious music. 
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 16:12
|
|
|
One thing the Z-46 and Z-52 used to do well was area denial. You can build for torps and have a ~60s reload which served me well. Of course, Pan-Europe DDs now do that job better.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 16:34
|
|
|
Bought that new Russian cruiser bagration from premium shop but I am at work and yet have to take the thing out. hopefully it isnt utter trash. Has anyone tried the thing out yet and got some pointers?
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 19:24
|
|
|
Blindeye posted:One thing the Z-46 and Z-52 used to do well was area denial. You can build for torps and have a ~60s reload which served me well. Of course, Pan-Europe DDs now do that job better. I play the Z-52 as a moderately okay torp boat with good AP and the ability to punish mediocre dd players. My most recent damage record was a 240k game in the Z-52, torping everyone and harassing enemy battleships with AP. It’s not a great ship but it’s not as bad as alleged, you just cannot one v one other dds and expect to win without help if there isn’t a significant skill imbalance.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 19:41
|
|
|
ragedx posted:Bought that new Russian cruiser bagration from premium shop but I am at work and yet have to take the thing out. hopefully it isnt utter trash. Has anyone tried the thing out yet and got some pointers? Buying premiums completely blind is not generally a good idea. Fortunately, it's the good one of the two they released (while Ochakov is absolutely terrible). It has a heal, which immediately gives it far more sustain than the majority of T8 cruisers. Its HE damage is fairly bad, but the AP is fairly good, so you want to look for opportunities to use AP on broadsides. It's also fairly tanky for a cruiser.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 21:04
|
|
|
Velius posted:I play the Z-52 as a moderately okay torp boat with good AP and the ability to punish mediocre dd players. My most recent damage record was a 240k game in the Z-52, torping everyone and harassing enemy battleships with AP. It’s not a great ship but it’s not as bad as alleged, you just cannot one v one other dds and expect to win without help if there isn’t a significant skill imbalance. When DDing it pays to have a healthy respect for the Z52 if it is opposing you.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 21:35
|
|
|
Z52 just makes no sense at tier 10. If you took off the tier 9 module slot and put it at tier 8 I think it would be a pretty average ship. I don't even think it would be the strongest at tier 7. The Maass has the same torpedoes other than 2 km less range, five of the same guns, the same maneuverability and concealment before the tier 8 module, and it isn't even very strong for its tier. Gearing is a pretty average tier 10 and Mahan is broken, but pretty much every single attribute on the Gearing is well above that on the Mahan and that just doesn't happen for the German DDs. Z46 at tier 9 has better concealment, a better gun layout (with low dpm DD guns it's better to have them in the back of the ship), and is equal or better in every other way except for 1 km of hydro range, and the smoke hydro gimmick only works against players that don't know the German DDs have hydro anyway so that's not exactly a deal breaker. And yet the official word of the developers is that German DDs are fine. 
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2020 23:32
|
|
|
sometimes i really wonder if I'm playing the same game as the other posters in this thread
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 00:11
|
|
|
Hazdoc posted:sometimes i really wonder if I'm playing the same game as the other posters in this thread Same. EU/NA servers are pretty varied already. James Garfield posted:And yet the official word of the developers is that German DDs are fine. You forget the natural prey of the German DD: the DD's who only have torpedoes (because they never fire their guns despite having them) 
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 00:29
|
|
|
I don't know about NA, but the T10 meta on EU at the moment is apparently 80% of each team being cruisers. I had one game yesterday that was just a tier 8 CV and 11 tier 10 cruisers per side, which was extremely funny for the 7 minutes it lasted.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 00:41
|
|
|
EponymousMrYar posted:You forget the natural prey of the German DD: the DD's who only have torpedoes (because they never fire their guns despite having them) That's kind of the thing. The average player is bad enough that you can still beat them reliably with a handicap, so you can win games in bad ships. A Z52 can still kill gunless shimas and USN playerbase gearings. But just saying that isn't telling the whole story, because you could also have killed those players in a tier 7 ship. The German DDs give up pretty much every other quality for the smoke/hydro combo, and the combo just doesn't work against competent players because they don't sit inside your hydro for 45 seconds while you shoot them. And even though the combo works against bad players, you don't need a combo to kill bad players. When you play the game you might smoke up and hydro someone and then kill them, but that doesn't necessarily mean you killed them because of the smoke and hydro.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 02:05
|
|
|
I swear that Georgia games for me are some of the wildest swings in quality. Just had an impressive win where I did something like 30k damage, spent most of it running from multiple DDs and getting wrecked by a Venezia and enemy Georgia. Couldn't land a single loving shot, because RNG said no. A previous game, just sailed around and people seemed to ignore me and had a fun time. And it completely whiffs multiple shots on broadside ships at under 12km range, but they don't miss me. CitizenKain fucked around with this message at 06:04 on May 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 05:57
|
|
|
davejk posted:I don't know about NA, but the T10 meta on EU at the moment is apparently 80% of each team being cruisers. I had one game yesterday that was just a tier 8 CV and 11 tier 10 cruisers per side, which was extremely funny for the 7 minutes it lasted.  That sounds dope.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 06:02
|
|
|
It's a very good time to be a Des Moines  Then again almost any time is a good time to be a Des Moines
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 08:10
|
|
|
ragedx posted:Bought that new Russian cruiser bagration from premium shop but I am at work and yet have to take the thing out. hopefully it isnt utter trash. Has anyone tried the thing out yet and got some pointers? Bagration is very strong, it's all positives, you have chosen well. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 14:47 on May 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 12:43
|
|
|
I've really gotten to like the Zao now that I realized my apparent terrible performance was a statistical artifact! It's fun to be sneaky. I've got all the skills that seemed like no brainers—Priority Target, Expert Loader, Adrenaline Rush, Superintendent and Demo Expert, and Concealment Expert. Should I go for Expert Marksman? Survivability Expert so I can take one more battleship AP pen? Try to save up for radio direction finding so I know where that DD permaspotting me is (generally) hiding?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 19:22
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:I've really gotten to like the Zao now that I realized my apparent terrible performance was a statistical artifact! It's fun to be sneaky. Probably expert marksman (turret traverse is a problem on the Zao unless you're at max range) and survival expert (more hp). Some people will take radio location and the Zao isn't so starved for points that you can't afford it, but even if you have an arrow pointing to a DD you have no way to spot it so the use is limited.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
I wish SE scaled based on ship class. Hard to get too excited for a small amount of HP, although the Zao does have a low HP pool at tier 10.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2020 22:38
|
|
|
So, uh, submarines huh?
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 02:13
|
|
|
Skane update: most cursed ship I've ever had. Five games in a row. MM Monitor:  I spent one game literally spotting a DD sitting completely still in spawn. 6 ships were <10km from it, including a radar cruiser (donskoi). Nothing blocking him, wide open target. They never shot at him. Never. Instead they waited for me to try and flush him out of the cap before advancing. I then got blapped by a Kaga because lol. Result?  Can't open water gunboat with the range it has, can't contest caps. I can farm damage with torps but when my teams lose every cap and 3 ships are down 3 minutes in, it's not enough.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 06:16
|
|
|
Pidgin Englishman posted:So, uh, submarines huh? I haven't played in months but I'll come mess about with them for giggles. From the videos I've seen it'll be a nice novelty for a couple weeks. Introducing them to randoms would be pretty hilarious for a while though. Imagine 11 submarines and one other ship per side for like a week.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 06:26
|
|
|
After idly glancing at the stats, I'm really trying to figure out the logic in Petropavlosk getting 8 flak clouds. The ship gets the standard 6x2 heavy AA setup that most T10 heavy/light cruisers run (exceptions: Venezia with 12x2, Hindenburg with 8x2, Colbert with 8x2, Smolensk with 4x4, Minotaur with 5x2, Moskva with 4x2), and almost without fail they get a max of 5-6 clouds. The exceptions being Hindenburg with 7, and Smolensk and Venezia with 8, with all of those carrying more heavy AA guns than normal. This was odd for Moskva too, getting 6 clouds despite having less than average guns, but that could be explained away as mostly just standardizing the cloud amount for cruisers. This isn't an argument that it makes the ship OP or whatever, because AA (particularly flak) continues to be nigh worthless against good CVs for most ships, it just makes zero sense mechanically.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 16:15
|
|
|
"Let's jump into a game with my Jervis. Oh, it's a T9 game with 6 radars on the enemy team." That went about as well as you would expect. Seriously, eat a heaping hat of poo poo for the state you've turned the game into, WG. To make matters even better, the game still doesn't officially support 144Hz displays and the mods that enabled it broke with the last update so that's also cool.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 18:54
|
|
|
There's too much radar. I think it should've been US only. There's even a premium DD with radar, that sure was a bad surprise.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 19:09
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:There's too much radar. I think it should've been US only. There's even a premium DD with radar, that sure was a bad surprise. There are actually three premium dds with radars - Black, Smaland, Orkan. And a few with high tier hydro at tier 8, namely Loyang and that weird Pan Asian Ognevoi clone.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:There's too much radar. It's getting to the point where it feels completely pointless to play a DD, you're just hosed seven ways from sunday by the game. To make matters even worse, the cooldowns on radar are so loving insanely short too. In that last game there was an Alaska who radared me, I managed to get away and went around an island to go back at him from the other direction after the radar had ended. Couldn't have been more than a minute later when I spotted him, and boop, here's radar from him again. gently caress you, son, for trying to play a DD.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
Radar mostly improves the game for DDs. You spot most radar ships well before radar range so you don't get detected by surprise, and having friendly radar ships opens a lot of plays that you couldn't really do otherwise. In particular US DDs really like to smoke and sit in it for the full duration doing nothing. If there's no radar you end up wasting (at least) two minutes because the only other ways to remove the 47% Gearing in smoke are to get lucky with torpedoes or to have someone risk getting torped at close range to rush it. You can't avoid it as reliably on ships that have radar range greater than concealment (Baltimore, Edinburgh, Minotaur, upcoming Russian CAs, all radar DDs) but almost all of those have pretty significant drawbacks compared to other radar ships. Playing a torpedo boat against 12 km radar can be lovely, but I think most of that is a map design issue. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 19:53 on May 15, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 19:49
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Radar mostly improves the game for DDs. Strong disagree. Radar ships can force you out of caps (or more likely just nuke you out of existence) by lighting you up from far beyond your spotting range, and make life for you a huge loving pain in pretty much every situation except open water sailing. Being able to get lit up from 10-12km away through islands and cover is horrible. Oh here's a Georgia coming to steal a cap, let's try to sneak up on him and put some torps into him. Whoop, nope: the radar cruiser 8km and a couple of islands away radared you so suddenly you're sitting in secondary range of a Georgia and are proper hosed. I agree that radar is a useful part of the game, but it's become way too god drat prevalent. Radar, much like cookies, should be a sometimes thing, not something even upper mid tier DDs have to deal with constantly. IMO the range should be shorter or the cooldowns much longer.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 20:27
|
|
|
If you get surprised by radar like that you messed up. If the radar cruisers aren't spotted then it's on you to not walk in to the spots where they sit on every map. Only a couple ships in the game can stealth radar, and 99% of the people driving them suicide or get spotted immediately.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 20:43
|
|
|
Der Shovel posted:Strong disagree. Radar ships can force you out of caps (or more likely just nuke you out of existence) by lighting you up from far beyond your spotting range, and make life for you a huge loving pain in pretty much every situation except open water sailing. Being able to get lit up from 10-12km away through islands and cover is horrible. Obviously you want to kill the radar ships or push them back from the cap before you go into it. Yes the radar ships can spot you through an island, but in most cases you should know that they're behind that island, and if the island is blocking you from spotting the radar ship it's also blocking the ship from shooting you. Der Shovel posted:Oh here's a Georgia coming to steal a cap, let's try to sneak up on him and put some torps into him. Whoop, nope: the radar cruiser 8km and a couple of islands away radared you so suddenly you're sitting in secondary range of a Georgia and are proper hosed. This is just making a mistake and being punished. You shouldn't be counting on sneaking up on someone inside radar range unless you know the radar is on cooldown. The Georgia having autodamage guns that only require the player to ctrl+click you is stupid, but that's a different issue.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 20:57
|
|
|
Der Shovel posted:It's getting to the point where it feels completely pointless to play a DD, you're just hosed seven ways from sunday by the game. DD's are cool and good and fun to play, radar isn't a problem. Matches without sufficient radar get really tedious because large parts of the map tend to get locked down by smoke+hydro garbage. You're complaining about a symptom, not the disease, and the disease is that your positioning and situational awareness is bad. Yes a bottom tier Jervis will get zoned out of using its torpedoes if there's a lot of radar but that doesn't mean it's useless. I've been playing the Friesland a lot lately and it's really really strong, radar or no radar. You can always shoot over islands if you don't want to sit in smoke. If you want to play a torpboat that doesn't have to care about radar at all, and isn't bothered too much by CV's either, get a Halland. It's real good. e: if you're in a good dd you can just straight up win a gunfight against the radarboat ok fine the kitakaze isn't good, it's bizarrely overpowered, but still TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:05 on May 15, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:Obviously you want to kill the radar ships or push them back from the cap before you go into it. Yes the radar ships can spot you through an island, but in most cases you should know that they're behind that island, and if the island is blocking you from spotting the radar ship it's also blocking the ship from shooting you. Sure, but I don't see how that's exactly making the game better for DD players Radar ships are making large parts of the map no-go-areas for DDs and it's isn't a ton of fun to have to hang around on the periphery waiting for the pubbies on your team to sink the radar cruisers so you can actually play your role.quote:This is just making a mistake and being punished. Oh yes, absolutely. I'm still learning destroyers so I'm making bad plays and mistakes all the time, but it still kinda sucks. Here is a battleship seemingly making a bad play (pushing into a cap solo and exposing himself to a torpedo run), but because there was an unseen radar ship somewhere behind an island, he is instead rewarded with a kill. Would I feel the opposite if it had been me in the Georgia instead of the Jervis? Probably! Again, I think radar absolutely has a role in the game and is needed to help push people out of smoke and to prevent deadlocks, but it's IMO too drat prevalent in the game right now, and WG are insisting on adding even more all the time, and now as stealth radar to boot.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2020 08:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 01:12 |
|
|
Is there any point to the latest set of directives other than early access to tech tree ships? I've mostly won the game at the moment so any excuse to keep winning would be good.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2020 10:48
|
|
