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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:former LF poster tinkzorg who went from maoist third worldism to fascism and got hired by a right-wing think tank that works with the sweden democrats Why pay when you got people doing it for free https://twitter.com/annakhachiyan/status/1261053145406455810?s=19
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May 15, 2020 12:27
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The same people who can unironically talk about maoist third-worldism but think immigration is a neoliberal plot is hilarious to me. If you say that the west is built on a foundation of mass plunder from the rest of the world, it kinda makes perfect sense that people from the plundered part of the world would want to go to the part that got enriched by the plunder and experience at least some of that. Or how the top way to deal with the exploitation of immigrant labor is to, rather than go after the exploiters, just ratchet up the terror level on the exploited.
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May 15, 2020 12:31
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:former LF poster tinkzorg who went from maoist third worldism to fascism and got hired by a right-wing think tank that works with the sweden democrats people tell me that LF was a true golden age of sophisticated witty leftist posting and cspam is but a limp replacement and then i read things like this
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May 15, 2020 12:33
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Panzeh posted:lol it's a hell of a trip reading tinkzorg now, the article is just a lame snipefest with almost no analysis with evidence or anything which, fair enough i suppose
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May 15, 2020 12:33
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at least that's the supervillain origin story i'm going with
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May 15, 2020 12:35
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Panzeh posted:The same people who can unironically talk about maoist third-worldism but think immigration is a neoliberal plot is hilarious to me. Well immigration and freedom of movement were not really big things in any communist country
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May 15, 2020 12:42
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i am WINNING (i.e. getting paid by some rich guys to be their pet "marxist" newspaper columnist) is written to get back at the people who made fun of his posts many years ago... whomst among us ...
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May 15, 2020 12:44
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gradenko_2000 posted:whomst among us ...
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May 15, 2020 12:52
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the situation in sweden, btw, is completely bonkers. the party whose think tank tinkzorg is repping has a no-poo poo neo-nazi pedigree and it's grown very large indeed, especially among the rural working class who have been pretty systematically driven to the margins and told to sit down and shut up. here his analysis that these people have been taken for granted for decades rings true, and it marks an interesting contrast with norway where these people have been represented consistently, first by the labour party and now by the center party his problem is that, outside of being allowed to express himself more freely in his new situation and point out the real divisions on the european left, he's got nowhere to go. he has no path forward. the working class of the rich countries is to a large extent labour aristocrats or disenfranchised non-citizens, be they illegal immigrants or temporary residents. free movement under the EU conception has a lot of unfortunate implications for the poorer people in the richer countries, but nobody much likes to talk about it precisely because we place a lot of stock in our internationalism and would prefer to stand in solidarity with these workers. unfortunately, people tend to vote in a self-interested way, and when someone's disenfranchised and outside of the mainstream economic order (and in the case of these migrant workers they've often agreed to these terms, knowing that they're bad compared to the norm of the host country), nobody's interested in just making stuff more expensive for the benefit of these people with whom one has never interacted and will never interact it's a big headache for the organised left, and of course the casualisation becomes a part of the somewhat more mainstream labour market, especially in the periphery. this then drives resentment, especially in communities where they've been losing ground consistently for years and years due to urbanisation and where their customs and culture is typically repudiated by the youth who leave for their education the refugee calculus is somewhat similar, except that refugees are a) possible to do something about, and b) are actually going to be staying around until further notice, making them prospects for integration rather than exile. unfortunately the global system for dealing with refugees is obviously broken, and so the question of why *we* should take this burden upon ourselves has to be answered. here we can actually get pretty far by appealing to base solidarity, but the normal response is to just shut down that line of argument in favour of appealing to outraged humanitarians into this heady mix comes racism as well, of course, and makes everything even more complicated - how does one condemn the racism while addressing the legitimate issues? how does one address issues as legitimate without signalling that one is oneself a racist, since that's the code the racists have been using to make their racism acceptable in the mainstream? this poo poo is very difficult! no wonder people who start off in reasonably good faith get shocked into bitterness by a sometimes hysterical reaction stemming from a dogmatic liberalism of the speaking classes. there's no good answer to these issues - the best i can see is to try to build an alliance between workers and the downwardly mobile middle class and hope like hell that none of the fault lines break like they did in britain in 2019
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May 15, 2020 12:53
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Also I listened a bit to the guy's podcast (It's in Swedish) and I didn't get the impression that he or his co-host are fascists at all.
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May 15, 2020 12:58
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i learned all of this the other day when i saw the article. like who the hell is this guy? but my guess is that the weird, aggrieved tone about how the left is LOSING and i am WINNING (i.e. getting paid by some rich guys to be their pet "marxist" newspaper columnist) is written to get back at the people who made fun of his posts many years ago... tinkzorg was a good poster in the lf days, but he went and made a modest career out of it. iirc he got chucked out of V for refusing to denounce a hardcore communist antifascist tendency (a ridiculous case IMO, i have no idea what they were thinking and it smells of factionalism to me) and went in for some contrarian takes about some very fraught issues in the swedish discourse and got frozen the gently caress out, which seems to have sent him scrabbling for some kind of income because he's in the end a part of the chattering class he rails against and subject to the same constraints - he doesn't want to be downwardly mobile any more than the next chap. now nobody wants anything to do with him other than reactionaries who like having someone who knows the left's neuroses around to annoy the left in general
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May 15, 2020 13:02
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MikeCrotch posted:Lee Carter and Felix hate each other for reasons I'm not quite clear on He is desperate for some kind of dialog or friendship with the Chapos. He is a closet simp basically.
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May 15, 2020 13:19
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V. Illych L. posted:tinkzorg was a good poster in the lf days, but he went and made a modest career out of it. iirc he got chucked out of V for refusing to denounce a hardcore communist antifascist tendency (a ridiculous case IMO, i have no idea what they were thinking and it smells of factionalism to me) and went in for some contrarian takes about some very fraught issues in the swedish discourse and got frozen the gently caress out, which seems to have sent him scrabbling for some kind of income because he's in the end a part of the chattering class he rails against and subject to the same constraints - he doesn't want to be downwardly mobile any more than the next chap. now nobody wants anything to do with him other than reactionaries who like having someone who knows the left's neuroses around to annoy the left in general
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May 15, 2020 13:19
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the thing is, the core of his critique - the modern organised western far left is a vehicle for the educated and anxious middle class and takes their values as a priori correct and universal - is pretty reasonable. his problem is that his answer, a return to ouvrierism, is an obvious non-starter in a modern economy
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May 15, 2020 13:29
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The tinkzorg article has the same problem that all of these analyses have. I've said it before in this very thread, Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn do not talk about intersectionality, they do not promulgate standpoint theory, they have never said the phrase "black bodies", their platforms do not mention discrimination towards genderqueers. This is all headcannon that people dream up while fantasizing about being Joseph Stalin.
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May 15, 2020 13:37
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everyone wants to have pmc benefits but no one wants to be in a pmc
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May 15, 2020 13:38
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Dmitri-9 posted:The tinkzorg article has the same problem that all of these analyses have. I've said it before in this very thread, Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn do not talk about intersectionality, they do not promulgate standpoint theory, they have never said the phrase "black bodies", their platforms do not mention discrimination towards genderqueers. This is all headcannon that people dream up while fantasizing about being Joseph Stalin. that's not really the thrust of tinkzorg's critique of corbynism though - corbyn tried very hard to build a coalition that could win elections, and for a moment it looked as though he had, but it meant fudging some very important issues, especially brexit. the problem was that once push came to shove, these groups simply didn't trust each other enough and hadn't got enough common interests to remain loyal to the coalition - this goes for both the urban middle-class types facing proletarisation who were looking into turning lib dem when labour was still trying to remain ambiguous, and to the northern older people who have seen their communities shut down and degraded over decades, in accordance with EU policy and using the EU as leverage. to this set, the national state is an arena where they can actually maybe influence policy in a substantial way, and to the other, younger liberals the national state is inherently chauvinistic and almost any weakening of it is acceptable when push came to shove, the corbynite project chose to side with its middle-class activists and to sacrifice the periphery. the election of keir starmer is only really explicable through this lens - ok, we tried leftism and it didn't work, we have to shed some part of our identity and what we prefer to keep is our cosmopolitan liberalism this has very little to do with idpol-orientation, but it does reveal in a dramatic way the fault line being addressed in that piece, which does sometimes manifest itself in the whole bodies/spaces/whatever discourse
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May 15, 2020 13:52
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Amber posted:The past few years in “left” political circles have been marked by the tyranny of hysterics and histrionics; emotional terrorists who take us all hostage with their “feelings.” Not only have these indulgent manipulations eroded productivity and all sense of trust; a preoccupation with trauma and pain has had the equivocal effect of poking a wound so that it cannot heal. I think she nailed it in one. Aimee, Amber, Anna and the stupidpolers are way more tolerable than soft squishy pmc babies that want the “left” to be a scolding idpol project.
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May 15, 2020 13:58
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V. Illych L. posted:that's not really the thrust of tinkzorg's critique of corbynism though - corbyn tried very hard to build a coalition that could win elections, and for a moment it looked as though he had, but it meant fudging some very important issues, especially brexit. the problem was that once push came to shove, these groups simply didn't trust each other enough and hadn't got enough common interests to remain loyal to the coalition - this goes for both the urban middle-class types facing proletarisation who were looking into turning lib dem when labour was still trying to remain ambiguous, and to the northern older people who have seen their communities shut down and degraded over decades, in accordance with EU policy and using the EU as leverage. to this set, the national state is an arena where they can actually maybe influence policy in a substantial way, and to the other, younger liberals the national state is inherently chauvinistic and almost any weakening of it is acceptable He can see the trees but not the forest. "PMCs" being proletarianized means the entire West is becoming less affluent, his Nazi buddies will absolutely enact his coalition by abusing immigrants and refugees, ignoring environmental issues to make people happy will reap complete environmental destruction in his lifetime. The critics of "strasserism" are not stupid, the predictions are very realistic. Frosted Flake posted:I think she nailed it in one. Aimee, Amber, Anna and the stupidpolers are way more tolerable than soft squishy pmc babies that want the “left” to be a scolding idpol project. Aimee Therese is a piece of poo poo. She is a rape and pedophilia apologist. She is so stupid that most people thought she was an pseudonymous character created by a troll. Dmitri-9 has issued a correction as of 14:09 on May 15, 2020 |
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May 15, 2020 13:59
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Frosted Flake posted:I think she nailed it in one. Aimee, Amber, Anna and the stupidpolers are way more tolerable than soft squishy pmc babies that want the “left” to be a scolding idpol project. I like how the opinion of all these dipshits is that any attempt not to be racist is 'moral scolding' because they're all pretty friendly to fash.
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May 15, 2020 14:05
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no, strasserism is nonsense. the right has absolutely no need to be more than superficially anti-capitalist. the swedish democrats win out a lot by rejecting liberalism, but they're never going to have to take the next step and actually start criticising the institution of private property, it's just not ever going to come on the agenda in a serious way
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May 15, 2020 14:07
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Most liberals are still just confused and enraged by the acknowledgement of material conditions in any way.
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May 15, 2020 14:08
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Most liberals are still just confused and enraged by the acknowledgement of material conditions in any way. just this post forever
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May 15, 2020 14:11
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The bernie sanders campaign was the real red-brown strasserist alliance
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May 15, 2020 14:11
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"Please let's just be like the libs and have no meaningful ideals" -aimee terese
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May 15, 2020 14:12
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Panzeh posted:"Please let's just be like the libs and have no meaningful ideals" -aimee terese how the gently caress she gets thrown along amber what
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May 15, 2020 14:15
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dead gay comedy forums posted:how the gently caress she gets thrown along amber what amber does sometimes say aimee terese-level dumb poo poo
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May 15, 2020 14:19
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again, it's like when especially deranged stalinists start talking about social fascism, the only thing it achieves is to disregard whatever the other person is saying and make the ideological space on the left more narrow. people can be stupid and have reactionary ideas without being nazis, and it's fine to call out those ideas as reactionary, but one should absolutely not debase oneself into bizarre and inappropriate anachronisms like that. it's how you end up with embittered ex-lefties sniping at the left + it really does stunt the ideological range of opinion on the left unnecessarily it's times like this that i sympathise with the hard-line vanguard party types who reckoned that you could at least have frank discussions behind closed doors
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May 15, 2020 14:25
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Panzeh posted:I like how the opinion of all these dipshits is that any attempt not to be racist is 'moral scolding' because they're all pretty friendly to fash. Just pragmatically, Genderqueer Spoonie PMC are not interested in a left that tackles material issues because it is not in the class interest. A worker in the midwest has it objectively worse than a “queer, poly, NB” trust fund media girl in Brooklyn, but one of them has completely taken over “left” discussion in the past decade. And yeah, Aimee doesn’t bat a thousand, but she rounds out the bench while Angela and Amber get points on the board and Anna warms up in the bullpen.
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May 15, 2020 14:32
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Honest Thief posted:everyone wants to have pmc benefits but no one wants to be in a pmc Lol all ways that white collar criminals invented a name for themselves that is so close to POC. were they hoping people would get confused and conflate them as being in solidarity with one another?
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May 15, 2020 14:35
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They should just call themselves Little Eichmanns, which is not antisemitic; unlike being a loving Little Eichmann, which is.
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May 15, 2020 14:37
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Frosted Flake posted:And yeah, Aimee doesn’t bat a thousand, but she rounds out the bench while Angela and Amber get points on the board and Anna warms up in the bullpen. As has been said before, they are all similar to or precisely NYC media people, even if they didn't start that way. Saying they have their fingers on the pulse of the Working Class while supporting policies of mass-brutalizing immigrants is quite off-base. To be charitable, at least Amber hasn't taken that position yet, unlike the other three.
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May 15, 2020 14:39
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V. Illych L. posted:it's times like this that i sympathise with the hard-line vanguard party types who reckoned that you could at least have frank discussions behind closed doors lol, party discipline is still very much a thing and worse, a lot of whips and secretaries of liberal parties worldwide nowadays learned a trick or two with vanguard politics (because a fair number of those people had their romantic phases with leftist thought, apparently) vanguards as an honest vehicle towards political organization and mobilization are a good idea, and it is proper that they are undergoing reinvention, but vanguards towards Establishment Committee of The Party is just a repeat mistake
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May 15, 2020 14:40
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Lol all ways that white collar criminals invented a name for themselves that is so close to POC. were they hoping people would get confused and conflate them as being in solidarity with one another? I think you're confused about who came up with the term Professional Managerial Class and who uses it and how it's used
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May 15, 2020 14:40
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i'm not even convinced that the anti-woke left types are right - they're often very much *not* right - but they're very obviously not fascists
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May 15, 2020 14:42
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Panzeh posted:To be charitable, at least Amber hasn't taken that position yet, unlike the other three. To be fair, Sami or Melungeon ethnonationalism would be hilarious.
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May 15, 2020 14:45
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not even convinced that the anti-woke left types are right - they're often very much *not* right - but they're very obviously not fascists FWIW i think it's pretty spot on that Corbyn having to actually pick a side on brexit publically and strongly definitely tanked his election and I was pretty off base assuming it wouldn't be significant.
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May 15, 2020 14:46
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Frosted Flake posted:Just pragmatically, Genderqueer Spoonie PMC are not interested in a left that tackles material issues because it is not in the class interest. funny that someone was just posting about weird fascist creeps being an unpleasant artifact of LF and surely not welcome in modern metropolitan CSPAM
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May 15, 2020 14:46
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Autism Sneaks posted:funny that someone was just posting about weird fascist creeps being an unpleasant artifact of LF and surely not welcome in modern metropolitan CSPAM lol funny that Amber just wrote an article about how useless radlibs are.
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May 15, 2020 14:51
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watching contrapoints' latest after a long while, and how did she get to the 1h20m mark is already intriguing
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May 15, 2020 14:54
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