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Doctor Jeep posted:yes, leftists are unrelieable voters if you give them a right wing candidate, that's a good thing If that makes us unreliable, that's like me saying that my dog is unreliable and shouldn't be trusted, and then revealing that some days I give him treats when he does what I want, and some days I kick him when he does what I want, and in all cases he lives in a lovely cold leaky cardboard box in my back yard. For years. It's honestly amazing how much poo poo the left were told to eat and we still kept coming back every time.
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May 16, 2020 04:26
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Jaxyon posted:I think the Democrats court progressives because they function within the party and try to defang leftists, who largely don't. That's why the DSA/Justice Dem approach is good, but not there yet. They don't care about you if you're not working within the party. no, they don't care about you if you show up and vote for them lawrence o'donnell, who actually worked for senate dems, said so himself, they do not give a poo poo about the left unless the votes are in danger how do you work within the party when as a whole it's actively against leftist policy and they hold all the levers of power in their hands
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May 16, 2020 04:27
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https://twitter.com/suchnerve/status/1261489885380255747 good omen!!!!
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May 16, 2020 04:28
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Doctor Jeep posted:no, they don't care about you if you show up and vote for them You keep the votes in danger. Meaning you broadcast in all channels that you will not vote for a child molester and neither will any of your friends.
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May 16, 2020 04:29
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Jaxyon posted:Dem establishment doesn't care why you didn't vote. If they can't get you to vote, they'll push for the voters they can get. they can't get those voters either, the ones they're looking for would rather vote for the real mccoy and not a copy Jaxyon posted:Yeah his whole career is standard centrist democrat messaging. He's like the platonic ideal of a lovely democrat. He helped create that. so first you say that's standard messaging, implying it's not gonna happen, and now you say it's his whole career and he's a lovely democrat you can't have it both ways, either he will be a bitch for Rs (which he is) or he won't
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May 16, 2020 04:30
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Jaxyon posted:If Biden is a bad person to vote for because he will work with the likes of Trump, then why is Trump getting elected a better option? Refusing to vote for Biden and advocating for other people not to vote for Biden makes it more likely that Literally Anybody Else becomes the Democratic nominee, which would be better (because Biden is the literal worst person who was in the race) and have a higher chance of beating Trump, as well as a rebuke to the idea that the Democrats can just gently caress around with whatever they want to do with no personal repercussions
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May 16, 2020 04:30
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If by some miracle the do drop Joe, if the clouds parted and the Democrats grew a brain overnight, the centrists are going to try and take credit for it. In reality, all the people screaming that they won't vote for him will be responsible for his removal.
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May 16, 2020 04:30
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Somfin posted:You keep the votes in danger. Meaning you broadcast in all channels that you will not vote for a child molester and neither will any of your friends. the key part is holding firm on election day and not voting for biden
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May 16, 2020 04:31
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Jaxyon posted:If Biden is a bad person to vote for because he will work with the likes of Trump, then why is Trump getting elected a better option? You're the one saying he'll have better people then Trump and will make sure no bad people get positions of power in government. But he's said, and shown, he'll happily give them what they want. Biden will not be the magical band-aid that will fix the problems that lead to Trump gaining power.
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May 16, 2020 04:32
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Pretty sure the mantra goes "vote like a black woman," so unless that's how Latinx people are voting, they don't matter.
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May 16, 2020 04:34
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Jaxyon posted:If Biden is a bad person to vote for because he will work with the likes of Trump, then why is Trump getting elected a better option? Let's take a real world example of something that has just happened, the failed coup in Venezuela. Because Trump is a complete moron, it failed miserably. I don't know whether it was directly his fault or whether the generals just hate him or whether he put some other idiot in charge. I don't care. The reality is, if Joe were in charge, the coup may have been successful. And, yes, Joe has already publicly supported the overthrowing party.
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May 16, 2020 04:34
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Jaxyon posted:If Biden is a bad person to vote for because he will work with the likes of Trump, then why is Trump getting elected a better option? Because neocons have a seat at the table with Biden and I absolutely do not. There is no circumstance where I will be in the same party as neoconservatives. If that is the future of the Democratic party I am out.
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May 16, 2020 04:36
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Jaxyon, this is your argument: "It's rape apologism to say that victims need to physically fight back against or resist their attackers during their assault. Therefore, saying that we (victims and non-victims alike) should metaphorically fight back against or in any way resist empowering known rapists makes you like a rape apologist." You are literally saying that anyone offering any resistance to empowering rapists in any scenario is akin to a rape apologist. It's incredibly transparent. You are just waving words around like a feather on a string hoping that we won't notice your bare rear end. We see the feather and we aren't distracted. Your whole rear end is showing. We see it. We know you support rape. All your twisting and incoherent flailing is pathetic. Imagine you just walked into a room full of black people and dropped an n-bomb. You can talk all you like, but it's not going to make any difference. There is no salvaging it and you might as well just leave. In the meantime, I'd like to return the thread to how this is literally a Kodos and Kang moment. Literally both candidates would see millions killed and endanger all human life. The question for your country is: are you as stupid as that Simpsons episode portrayed? Americans, we know your country is dumb, and it's kind of adorable when it's not leading to mass death, but could you please please try to pitch in together and find collectively a few brain cells to rub together and realize that you don't actually have to vote for Kodos or Kang? You literally don't have to do it! You could just vote for someone else! It really is that simple!
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May 16, 2020 04:36
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Bernie locked up the Latinx vote in the primaries by a wide margin, because he actually bothered to reach out to them I'm assuming they will just stay home if they have to choose between Biden and Trump
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May 16, 2020 04:55
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Let's take a real world example of something that has just happened, the failed coup in Venezuela. Biden is committed to maintaining the recognition of the National Assembly as the legitimate government of Venezuela, but this doesn't mean supporting some amateur hour PMC's attempt at overthrowing the Maduro regime.
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May 16, 2020 04:59
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nivdes posted:Biden is committed to maintaining the recognition of the National Assembly as the legitimate government of Venezuela, but this doesn't mean supporting some amateur hour PMC's attempt at overthrowing the Maduro regime. Weren’t they the ones who launched the coup?
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May 16, 2020 05:00
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nivdes posted:Biden is committed to maintaining the recognition of the National Assembly as the legitimate government of Venezuela, but this doesn't mean supporting some amateur hour PMC's attempt at overthrowing the Maduro regime. Right, it means a good coup attempt because that's been the playbook for 30+ years and Biden is returning to normal.
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May 16, 2020 05:02
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nivdes posted:Biden is committed to maintaining the recognition of the National Assembly as the legitimate government of Venezuela, but this doesn't mean supporting some amateur hour PMC's attempt at overthrowing the Maduro regime. That is literally the point, your bullshit spin aside; Biden/his advisers would have pushed a competent coup attempt that could have potentially succeeded, resulting in the same mass death, suffering, and destruction of democracy US-backed coups in Latin America always do when they succeed. Also, as stated, the "legitimate government" you mention there are the ones who hired the fuckups who got subdued by some fishermen and pissed themselves while posting about the whole thing on the Internet.
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May 16, 2020 05:03
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The party that feigns belief that "demographics are destiny" continues to openly antagonize the very demographics that should be handing them effortless wins. Imagine being more concerned about how to get this growing demographic into cages than voting booths.
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May 16, 2020 05:06
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Weren’t they the ones who launched the coup? Roland Jones posted:That is literally the point, your bullshit spin aside; Biden/his advisers would have pushed a competent coup attempt that could have potentially succeeded, resulting in the same mass death, suffering, and destruction of democracy US-backed coups in Latin America always do when they succeed. From what I've gathered the PMC's entire idea was that they'd pay for the operation upfront and then collect the bounties on various regime officials to pay it off, and the National Assembly never took them seriously. They acted entirely of their own accord.
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May 16, 2020 05:09
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Is there a non-Sanders candidate that the progressives would be ok with voting for if the Dems replace Biden?
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May 16, 2020 05:24
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Instead of hiring a third rate PMC, Biden would enlist third rate PMCs to overthrow Venezuela's government. Just storming Caracas with people that have job descriptions like Brand Fulfillment Manager and Customer Realization Expert demanding to speak to Maduro's manager.
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May 16, 2020 05:26
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Jimbozig posted:In the meantime, I'd like to return the thread to how this is literally a Kodos and Kang moment. Literally both candidates would see millions killed and endanger all human life. The question for your country is: are you as stupid as that Simpsons episode portrayed? Americans, we know your country is dumb, and it's kind of adorable when it's not leading to mass death, but could you please please try to pitch in together and find collectively a few brain cells to rub together and realize that you don't actually have to vote for Kodos or Kang? You literally don't have to do it! You could just vote for someone else! It really is that simple! Two things: One, the Kodos and Kang reference is close, but I think a lot of us think that another term of Trump would be significantly worse than whatever potential bullshit Biden will get up to. It's not so much Kodos vs. Kang as it is Kodos vs. Unicron. Biden isn't going to empower white nationalism, he's not going to actively blow up the government and continue turning the presidency into a dictatorship. His climate change plan may be garbage, but I don't know how you can honestly not think his garbage is an order of magnitude better than Trump actively dismantling the EPA. And yes, it might be disaster either way, but maybe with the EPA intact we have a 4C increase instead of 6C, and we only have a few million refugees rather than twenty million. Two, and this is critical -- you aren't giving us a better alternative. Third party candidates do not win, and if the left votes for one en masse it will mean Trump gets re-elected. It's fine to say "well, they'd win if you vote for them!" but you actually don't have a plan to reach out to millions of people and get them to vote your way. I was devastated that Bernie lost and I was in the gently caress Biden and gently caress The DNC mindset for a long while too, and I would absolutely love an alternative to Trump that isn't Joe Biden. But all you're giving us is a nebulous future where we knowingly let Trump win the election and wreak havoc for four more years, and then in 2024 maybe the DNC adopts some progressive policies, maybe? Or maybe the Republicans continue gerrymandering and suppressing voters and appointing chud judges until it's impossible for the Dems to win, and impossible to implement their policies even if they do. Or I guess four years of Biden makes Super Trump appear, whereas four more years of regular Trump means we get a Mega Bernie to rule over whatever ashes are left? I would loving love a real alternative, and I'd appreciate it if you guys stopped throwing around this hyperbolic "you must think it's okay to support a rapist" or "you desperately want an excuse to support the DNC" because it's bullshit and you know it. I'm not coming in here saying "you must be desperate for Trump to win another term" because it's rude, and we both know it's a more complicated question than that. I resent the hell out of the DNC. I would love to be able to withhold my vote and get the DNC to listen to the left, but I feel like I'm being held hostage when the current admin is as awful as it is.
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May 16, 2020 05:29
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:Is there a non-Sanders candidate that the progressives would be ok with voting for if the Dems replace Biden? marianne williamson
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May 16, 2020 05:36
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Phenotype posted:Biden isn't going to empower white nationalism Yeah I'm sure the segregationist supporting friend of Strom Thurmond is going to keep white supremacists in check. Phenotype posted:I resent the hell out of the DNC. I would love to be able to withhold my vote and get the DNC to listen to the left, but I feel like I'm being held hostage when the current admin is as awful as it is. As long as you accept that you always have to vote for the "lesser evil" (which will eventually turn into the greater evil as the years go on), the DNC has no reason to move left. They have your vote no matter how horrible their candidate is, why would they bother acknowledging your needs or coming up with a platform better then "I'm not the other guy"?
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May 16, 2020 05:40
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Yeah it would take someone real good to get me to vote for a democrat again. I won't vote for Biden not just because he is a rapist, racist, and a warmonger but also to punish the democrats and hopefully destroy them in the long term. If they want my vote they will need to make some big concessions to the left.
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May 16, 2020 05:42
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Heliotrope posted:Yeah I'm sure the segregationist supporting friend of Strom Thurmond is going to keep white supremacists in check. I didn't say he wasn't probably a racist, I said he wasn't going to court and empower white nationalists, which is probably true. You know very well the boost they've gotten from Trump's implicit encouragement. And as for the rest, you're completely right, and I loving hate it. That's why I said I feel like they're holding me hostage. We're going to do this again in four years and the GOP will have another complete bastard and we'll keep going around in circles. I just don't see a way out that isn't "let the GOP dismantle the government and hope for the best."
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May 16, 2020 05:45
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Heliotrope posted:Yeah I'm sure the segregationist supporting friend of Strom Thurmond is going to keep white supremacists in check. How is this true?
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May 16, 2020 06:24
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Scientist Al Gore posted:How is this true? People were outraged at Trump's sexual assaults, now they're saying it's not a big deal because Biden did it. Bush was loathed by the elft and absolutely needed to be voted out of office, then Obama built on the lovely things he did and now people fawn over Bush for giving candy to Michelle Obama, hanging out with Ellen Degeneres, and saying Trump is not doing good on responding to the pandemic. For God's sake, we had a progressive in the race and the Democrats did everything they could to ensure the nomination went to a senile racist rapist! What kind of Democrat do you think will come after Biden if people just accept this as the way things have to be?
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May 16, 2020 06:48
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Phenotype posted:It's fine to say "well, they'd win if you vote for them!" but you actually don't have a plan to reach out to millions of people and get them to vote your way. The catch here is you're actually describing the Biden campaign. Scientist Al Gore posted:How is this true? When you support the lesser evil, you make a concession as to how bad of a candidate you're willing to vote for. The next time, they run someone a little worse, and you vote for them again, because they're still not as bad as the guy the republicans are running. This goes and goes and goes until suddenly you realize that the opposition party is the controlled opposition party, that they don't represent your interests at all, and are fine with you dying. As an example, the Democrats.
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May 16, 2020 06:53
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Scientist Al Gore posted:How is this true? If you want a step-by-step forensic accounting, I can't give you one. Noone can. If you want evidence that this has happened? The current Democratic nominee is a segregationist warmongering senile old white rapist in the pocket of lobbyists whose family corruptly trades on his position, and whose most famous stances are being all in on the war on drugs and mass incarceration.
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May 16, 2020 06:56
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Scientist Al Gore posted:How is this true? obama's crowning achievement is a heritage foundation healthcare plan
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May 16, 2020 07:00
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the_steve posted:https://twitter.com/0rf/status/1260389736235110401?s=19 unfortunately it's paywalled.
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May 16, 2020 07:24
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Jaxyon posted:If Biden is a bad person to vote for because he will work with the likes of Trump, then why is Trump getting elected a better option? One of these options has a slightly smaller chance of eternally discrediting the democratic party. And honestly I'm not sure if it's going to be "losing to Trump a second time" or "electing a right wing rapist that goes on to inflict severe economic austerity on the nation". Then again, I thought the dems might actually learn their lesson after eating major poo poo in 2016. Apparently they think campaign donations and keeping their stock portfolio returns slightly higher is more important than actually winning elections. Truly, they are worried about protecting you from the slightly farther right.
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May 16, 2020 07:27
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ColonelMuttonchops posted:Pretty sure the mantra goes "vote like a black woman," so unless that's how Latinx people are voting, they don't matter. And it had better not be a black woman under the age of 60, let me tell you. Now back to posting totally-not-racist tweets at Bri Joy Gray.
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May 16, 2020 08:39
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Phenotype posted:Two things: One, the Kodos and Kang reference is close, but I think a lot of us think that another term of Trump would be significantly worse than whatever potential bullshit Biden will get up to. It's not so much Kodos vs. Kang as it is Kodos vs. Unicron. Biden isn't going to empower white nationalism, he's not going to actively blow up the government and continue turning the presidency into a dictatorship. His climate change plan may be garbage, but I don't know how you can honestly not think his garbage is an order of magnitude better than Trump actively dismantling the EPA. And yes, it might be disaster either way, but maybe with the EPA intact we have a 4C increase instead of 6C, and we only have a few million refugees rather than twenty million. Biden has lost already, the Dem establishment threw the election. All we can do now is pick the best path forward, and that includes not rewarding the establishment when they opt to lose on purpose rater than moving even an inch to the left. And even if Biden somehow manages to win the only reason for that would be anti-Trump sentiment which will be gone after Trump's out of office, so in other words after four years max of doing nothing and improving nothing Biden will be replaced by some even worse GOP ghoul, because it's not like the republicans will get any better, and then what? Even in the absolute best case you'd be back where you started except even farther down the road to absolute disaster.
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May 16, 2020 08:39
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Phenotype posted:I would loving love a real alternative I don't have an alternative, but I know my vote doesn't count - the Democrats made sure of that - so if nothing I do matters and there is no chance of structural change for as long as the Democrats are a going concern, then at the very least I can go ahead and not vote for a rapist.
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May 16, 2020 09:14
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Also, I suppose there is a plan to reach millions of people and turn them around, but it involves humiliating the Democratic party and shaking people's trust in them as an institution of democracy in this shithole of a country. You don't get that by throwing away your vote (i.e. voting for Joe Biden). It's possible that liberal Boomers will continue to do liberal Boomer poo poo even after The Democrats Brought To You By MSNBC lose to THE GODDAMN CHEETO IN THE WHITE HOUSE a second time, but I guess we got to hope we can peel at least some of them off. Failing that at least we get for more years of them dying while the Democratic establishment remains too weak to fully extinguish the left wing of their party (which, they will absolutely do, if Biden is elected).
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May 16, 2020 09:21
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Heliotrope posted:As long as you accept that you always have to vote for the "lesser evil" (which will eventually turn into the greater evil as the years go on), the DNC has no reason to move left. They have your vote no matter how horrible their candidate is, why would they bother acknowledging your needs or coming up with a platform better then "I'm not the other guy"? This right here is why I absolutely refuse to take seriously anyone who says that we just have to hold our nose and vote for Biden. You can add as many little asterisk footnotes as you want, put as many clarifications and elaborations in parentheses afterwards, make a huge melodramatic production of stage sighing and holding your nose and acting thoroughly put out over the whole ordeal, but at the end of the day, the absolute only part that matters to the politicians is the +1 They do not give a single solitary gently caress about any other part, except for that +1 that they can add to the pile. That is the only thing they need, and as long as they get that, literally nothing else matters from you unless you're a wealthy enough donor to get their attention. Put on as much of a performance as you want, giving them what they want is still giving them what they want.
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May 16, 2020 09:28
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In the end, supporting a rapist’s bid for power means you....supported the rapist by voting for them to gain more power over more people. If you’re fighting against rape and white supremacy don’t support rapist white supremacists by voting them into power. Seems a pretty simple way of understanding this dilemma.
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May 16, 2020 11:09
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