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So I'm running a Changeling: The Lost game and I have a question about Hedge Navigation. Does only one person make navigation rolls, or should the Motley make rolls individually? I've been using Wits + Survival as the dice pool. How do you determine the Edge? Is it a separate roll ahead of the navigation roll? Should all destinations require the same number of successes? Last session the Motley found the Icon of another Changeling in only two navigation rolls.
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May 15, 2020 18:23
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Soonmot posted:If any of you VtES superfans want to make an info post, that section of the OP is still blank. Alright, I guess if no one volunteers I will put up something together tomorrow. moths posted:VtES is such a fantastic game, and it's probably worth pointing out that the new starter boxed game is on its way: It's worth noting that the decks will be available for purchase individually after release. You can also check the deck lists in the web, however they haven't spoilered all the new vamps yet. Check this poo poo:  V5 Malkavians, with domination instead of dementation (RIP), and the new clan logo. I'm not sure I like the idea of more malks with domination but whatever.
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May 15, 2020 19:17
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If anyone wants to try to play V:tES online with like lackeyccg or something, I'd be down. Haven't played in years but I still love the game.
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May 15, 2020 19:23
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moths posted:VtES is such a fantastic game, and it's probably worth pointing out that the new starter boxed game is on its way: It'd be tempting to have that many pre-made decks around just to pull out and play. They're trying to get me. I see what they're up to.
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May 15, 2020 21:11
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A Renaissance Nerd posted:So I'm running a Changeling: The Lost game and I have a question about Hedge Navigation. Finding an icon should perhaps be more "You get to the place where it is, now to determine what piece of the scenery is the icon" with whatever dice pools the players negotiate into using. You can make the navigation roll use whatever pool you want. Are they going to the dream roads? Maybe Wits + Occult to know just where dreams grow. Trying to hire some help? They can negotiate on their way with Presence + Persuade over to the hedge job fair. The Hedge has it's own speed and initiative pool that you can use to calculate edge, if you want to just use that to determine the edge. And successes can be calculated with the modifiers. And I found this annoying enough that I made my own google sheet to do the calculations for me. It's very basic, if it isn't asking for a number, it's just asking for the cell not to be empty. The black border cells are for inputs, the red is the output.
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May 15, 2020 21:12
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RAW Hedge navigation is a nightmare even before you get to the part where Hedgespinning is going to be going on with, as far as I can tell, potentially every single action. I tried an alternate game-ish narrative-oriented structure in my second session running C:tL; my players hated it and it only took up maybe a third of the time that the RAW system would. Now I just do a Hedgespinning roll before they set out, bank the successes as effects I can use to spice up the journey from point X to point Y (or change it entirely if they wander off into the Thorns), and abstract the journey out into a couple rolls and Hedgespinning again after everyone gets a chance to roll once. Obviously that stuff is flavor to taste from table to table but a number of the Hedge mechanics left my group really cold and feeling like the game didn't want them interacting with that part of the game world.
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May 15, 2020 21:23
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the game really expects you to basically treat The Hedge as a recurring miniboss fight, so in order to keep it from sidetracking the game every time it comes up, use it as an excuse to delve into elements of character psychology. Like you're heading to the first Goblin Market X character encountered during their durance, so to get there you travel through a maze of that player's now forgotten hometown. Maybe part of a path takes it through the secret motivations of someone the players assumed was an ally. Like, if "story fights" are Signal and "random encounters" are Noise, make sure to keep these diversions Signal heavy in order to feed them back into the main plot and not have them pop off randomly in the void. If you think they're going through the plot too fast, try luring them off the trail instead of chasing them into the thorns. Let them explore some Deep Weirdness, pick up some useful Goblin Fruits, then get themselves entangled with a Huntsman trying to escape Fae control. I got the impression that I was supposed to treat every Hedge foray as a chase scene, but I think that's kind of limiting.
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May 15, 2020 23:25
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:. That's also the impression I was given and I don't like it.
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May 15, 2020 23:47
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I'm serious guys, let's get on this: https://www.lackeyccg.com/ And get a goons play V:tES thing going.
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May 15, 2020 23:58
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Soonmot posted:That's also the impression I was given and I don't like it. So, I end up borrowing from 4e D&D for things like the hedge thing. I read it as a chase scene too, but it rubs me the wrong way. Instead I used the Skill Challenge concept from D&D and let them all loose with it so they can figure out how to overcome obstacles and use all their skills as a team to navigate. It would be much more difficult for a single person, but it should be safer to travel as a team because you can help each other. There’s already teamwork rules, but I would just set an arbitrary number of successes and then let them pick up equipment/environment bonuses and negatives if they can be creative. I’ve found doing things like this makes the players more invested and involved in scenes like it, and they end up being shorter and having plenty of weight.
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May 16, 2020 01:17
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MonsieurChoc posted:I'm serious guys, let's get on this: https://www.lackeyccg.com/ Man I really want to, but I'm notoriously bad about sticking to commitments, especially with how much I currently have going on.
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May 16, 2020 01:36
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Free Gratis posted:Man I really want to, but I'm notoriously bad about sticking to commitments, especially with how much I currently have going on. Same, really.
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May 16, 2020 04:27
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Same, but that does sound fun.
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May 16, 2020 09:26
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Soonmot posted:If any of you VtES superfans want to make an info post, that section of the OP is still blank. Welcome to Vampire: the Eternal Struggle (or VTES for short)! VTES is a multi-player collectable card game based on the award-winning Vampire: the Masquerade role playing game in which players take on the role of ancient vampires known as a Methuselahs. Considered mere legend by many, Methuselahs rule everything from the shadows, engaging in a eons-long Machiavellian conflict that encompasses political, social, and even physical warfare. The struggle is won or lost based on the actions taken by your minions – younger vampires who unknowingly do your bidding. In this way, the game can allow for deep and immersive storytelling as your minions purchase equipment, hire retainers, and even suggest legislative changes to vampiric society, all in the service of your dark plots. The game is currently published by Black Chantry Productions. VTES was the second card game designed by Richard Garfield (designer of Magic the Gathering, Netrunner, and other games). It was designed to avoid some of the flaws that Garfield found in Magic: VTES does not require you to include resource or mana cards in your deck, and cards are instantly replaced when played, meaning that card draw isn’t as important as knowing when to discard or “cycle away” a card. It also has a gameplay experience more in keeping with a boardgame than a traditional card game – VTES is usually played by 4 or 5 players and games can last up to 2 hours. Unlike most multi-player games, players in VTES do not engage in a free-for-all. Instead, each player directs their attacks to the player on their left (their “prey”) and defends against the player on their right (their “predator”). You gain victory points by eliminating or “ousting” your prey from the game, in which case the next player to the left becomes your new prey. The player with the most victory points at the end of the game wins (even if they have been ousted!). This arrangement makes the game a very social one – you and the player two seats to the left and right have common enemies. But if you help these allies too much, you may find that you’ve made one of them too strong, and when they suddenly become your new predator, your help has transformed an ally into a deadly threat. VTES is also a resource management game. Each player begins with 30 points of influence called “pool” that Methuselahs hold dearer than unlife itself. If you run out of pool, you are ousted from the game. But this pool is also the way that you sway vampires to your cause. Weak fledgling vampire are easily seduced, but the older more powerful ones require more convincing, which may require multiple turns to accomplish. Once a vampire is converted to your side, all the pool you spent on them becomes blood possessed by that vampire, which can be spent to play cards that allow them to activate their unique vampiric powers. Each minion must manage their blood and you must manage your pool – spending more provides you with additional minions, but brings you one step closer to being ousted. Under- or over- investing in your minions may well cost you the game. In short, you are likely to enjoy this game if you enjoy any of following: -a modern, supernatural setting. -card games like Magic the Gathering. -very social multi-player games that involve a lot of deal making. -games with a long play time, and with complex rules that encourage great strategic depth. Conversely, you are not likely to enjoy this game if you are opposed to the following: -games that include player elimination. -long games with many layers of strategy. -games that require a group to play. How do I find people to play with? There are several ways: 1-Check the list of Princes. these are VEKN volunteers who serve as local tournament organizers. Check to see if one lives near you, and feel free to email them – they should be able to provide you information about whether a local group exists and how to get in contact with them. 2-The Vtes Player Map which shows the location of all players who have registered on it. 3-Check the Event Calendar. It will show you when and where upcoming tournaments are being held around the world. Online play If you find that you don’t have a regular play group (or you just need more VTES in your life), you can also play online. There are two main platforms used for online play. Jyhad On-Line (JOL) is a web-based service that is similar to a play-by-post system where players do not have to all be online at the same time, but games take weeks to finish. The other platform (and the most popular one, by far) used for playing VTES online is LackeyCCG, a program that you need to download and patch for VTES (Instructions). Resources -The Vampire Elder Kindred network. The Official V:TES Players' Organization. -Rulebook -Amaranth A handy tool for building and sharing your decks. Also available as a mobile app. - TWD The tournament winning deck archive. Anyone wants to add/change anything? Maybe this is too long, idk. MonsieurChoc posted:I'm serious guys, let's get on this: https://www.lackeyccg.com/ I'll be up for it. Right now is actually a good moment to get into the vtes lackey play, due to covid there's more online games than ever before. Some players host games in the official discord and there's also several very active national discord channels. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 09:33
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Angry Lobster posted:Anyone wants to add/change anything? Maybe this is too long, idk. Undo your quote tags so I can C&P the formatting \/\/\/\/No worries, added! Soonmot fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 16, 2020 |
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May 16, 2020 19:11
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Done, sorry about that.
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May 16, 2020 19:23
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Trying to make sense of the Grandfather in early WoD material is difficult. For those not familiar, he's a figure from two of the early novels (1994/95, Dark Prince and Prince of the City) who came from China as part of a longstanding vampire plot. Just retcon him to be Kuei-jin, right? Well - it's not quite so simple. He has ghouls, he had a childe who embraced a regular rear end vampire, and so on. Now, if we wanted to assign him a clan, it'd be Nosferatu - in theory. He himself is a grotesque snapping turtle like monstrosity, so that's Nosferatu as all get out. But his descendants are normal or beautiful looking, so either he's deliberately creating Caitiff, or there's something hinky going on (or he's just a frenzy-prone Gangrel). He was deliberately written as being something Other Than an ordinary vampire, too. This leads me to an interesting compromise position. The Grandfather might himself actually be Kuei-jin, but his 'childer' are Cainites - Caitiff, most likely - descended from some of the known vampire lines established in China before 1850, conditioned to believe they're the same as the Grandfather either by trickery or sorcery. If you wanted to sow disinformation in your target and establish a vanguard, dispatching a mixed brood capable of local embraces would work very nicely - they're disposable to you and a nuisance back home (even if they're good citizens of the Court, the more vocal zealots will want to tear them limb from limb on the regular), they can perform the same embrace tactics as the enemy, and it'll really gently caress with the Camarilla's information when the most consistent, long term contact with the Kuei-jin keeps turning up contradictory information to all the other spying missions.
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May 17, 2020 13:59
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Loomer posted:This leads me to an interesting compromise position. The Grandfather might himself actually be Kuei-jin, but his 'childer' are Cainites - Caitiff, most likely - descended from some of the known vampire lines established in China before 1850, conditioned to believe they're the same as the Grandfather either by trickery or sorcery. If you wanted to sow disinformation in your target and establish a vanguard, dispatching a mixed brood capable of local embraces would work very nicely - they're disposable to you and a nuisance back home (even if they're good citizens of the Court, the more vocal zealots will want to tear them limb from limb on the regular), they can perform the same embrace tactics as the enemy, and it'll really gently caress with the Camarilla's information when the most consistent, long term contact with the Kuei-jin keeps turning up contradictory information to all the other spying missions. I think that is a solid explanation and better than published canon, but for completeness, White Wolf did explicitly mention Saulot did spend time in, I think India/China? where he picked up his third eye and stole secrets from the Kuei-jin (the whole thing reeks of Orientalism). While there, he founded a bloodline, Wu-Zao which he promptly disowned, while disrespected by the Kuei-jin Courts (or whatever pretentious name they had), it is not impossible for one or two individuals of those bloodlines to rise in esteem enough to gain that type of power. As for why he doesn't have the third eye, given the grudge the Kuei-jin bear against Saulot, he most likely never even bother to get the Discipline high enough for the eye to manifest.
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May 17, 2020 16:29
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The third eye isn't an optional thing for the Salubri regardless of whether they get their disciplines up but Saulot himself understanding enough about the mark of Cain to manipulate what weaknesses his descendants got is incredibly on brand. Especially if you go with the canon it seems like WW wants you to and blame him for the non-kueljin vampires in Asia and the Baali. *edit* Honestly the way vampires in Requiem are basically different species that have been steadily converging is so much better than "God did it" as to make Masquerade look even less well planned. Relevant Tangent fucked around with this message at 16:41 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 16:38
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Eh, V20, p474 says the eye doesn't appear until the second level of the Valean Discipline. Plus, as I understand bloodlines directly tied to an Andi founder can express the curse in different ways.
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May 17, 2020 16:45
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Pakxos posted:I think that is a solid explanation and better than published canon, but for completeness, White Wolf did explicitly mention Saulot did spend time in, I think India/China? where he picked up his third eye and stole secrets from the Kuei-jin (the whole thing reeks of Orientalism). While there, he founded a bloodline, Wu-Zao which he promptly disowned, while disrespected by the Kuei-jin Courts (or whatever pretentious name they had), it is not impossible for one or two individuals of those bloodlines to rise in esteem enough to gain that type of power. As for why he doesn't have the third eye, given the grudge the Kuei-jin bear against Saulot, he most likely never even bother to get the Discipline high enough for the eye to manifest. Going with them with the Wu Zao is a massive complication when there are something like a dozen potential other lineages.
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May 17, 2020 18:11
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Absolutely, I just wanted to throw out that if you wanted to play inside baseball, White Wolf does have enough cruft to bash something together. But just because it is published, does not make it better.
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May 17, 2020 18:22
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Pakxos posted:Eh, V20, p474 says the eye doesn't appear until the second level of the Valean Discipline. Plus, as I understand bloodlines directly tied to an Andi founder can express the curse in different ways. V20 is dumb as hell then. 
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May 17, 2020 18:44
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Pakxos posted:Absolutely, I just wanted to throw out that if you wanted to play inside baseball, White Wolf does have enough cruft to bash something together. But just because it is published, does not make it better. What I'm getting at is that even within 'inside baseball', caitiff lineages descended from the Lasombra, Toreador, Brujah, Giovanni, Ravnos, Anda, Gangrel, and Cappadocian expeditions into Cathay are a much simpler fit.
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May 17, 2020 18:44
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That's fair.
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May 17, 2020 19:02
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Loomer posted:What I'm getting at is that even within 'inside baseball', caitiff lineages descended from the Lasombra, Toreador, Brujah, Giovanni, Ravnos, Anda, Gangrel, and Cappadocian expeditions into Cathay are a much simpler fit. I always enjoy when I do this with the FR, and I imagine you're enjoying it too as an expert of another geek canon thing. Expert: "there's a problem!" Noob: "well there's this obvious solution from this one book" Expert: "no, actually, this other solution is better supported by many other books and is a much better fit" Noob: "oh"
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May 17, 2020 19:08
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This thread is the second result when you google "Satyros Phil forsooth and hey nonny." While this is good news, it makes the actual fake-Phil forsooth bit hard to find. Somebody repost it please. nvm Bogart fucked around with this message at 03:02 on May 18, 2020 |
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May 18, 2020 02:24
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To give a really good example of why I despise Keven Andrew Murphy's work, he wrote 'Mammy Pleasant' into House of Secrets. Mary Ellen Pleasant was a real person, a freedwoman of tremendous dignity and a civil rights crusader (back in the day when 'civil rights crusader' and 'John Brown' were synonyms. She was his lover and quite literally funded his attack on Harper's Ferry, and after the War, officially changed her racial status from White to Black to fight injustices.) who disliked being called Mammy rather tremendously (it was a slur against her by the press) and KAM reduced her to a pretty offensive stereotype that's happy to be called Mammy and asks to be introduced thus. Now, you might say 'well, House of Secrets was a VTES novel, so he had to stick with established characters', right? Well - she never appeared in any VtES material other than House of Secrets, or any oWoD material for that matter. KAM introduced a tremendously important, complex figure just for the sake of turning her into a stereotype.Arivia posted:I always enjoy when I do this with the FR, and I imagine you're enjoying it too as an expert of another geek canon thing. Depending on context, yeah. If someone wanted to run them as Wu Zao for a game I'd be all over it. It's the balance between looking to likelihood for canon/pseudo-canonical routes versus not crushing dreams for individual games.
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May 18, 2020 16:16
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Loomer posted:Depending on context, yeah. If someone wanted to run them as Wu Zao for a game I'd be all over it. It's the balance between looking to likelihood for canon/pseudo-canonical routes versus not crushing dreams for individual games. Exactly!
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May 18, 2020 19:57
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Loomer posted:Trying to make sense of the Grandfather in early WoD material is difficult. For those not familiar, he's a figure from two of the early novels (1994/95, Dark Prince and Prince of the City) who came from China as part of a longstanding vampire plot. Just retcon him to be Kuei-jin, right? Well - it's not quite so simple. He has ghouls, he had a childe who embraced a regular rear end vampire, and so on. Now, if we wanted to assign him a clan, it'd be Nosferatu - in theory. He himself is a grotesque snapping turtle like monstrosity, so that's Nosferatu as all get out. But his descendants are normal or beautiful looking, so either he's deliberately creating Caitiff, or there's something hinky going on (or he's just a frenzy-prone Gangrel). He was deliberately written as being something Other Than an ordinary vampire, too. IIRC, the Dowager from those novels was explicitly a Nosferatu who originally came over from China, so it's not like there isn't already support in those books for linking the Chinese vampires in SF to the traditional Cainite clans. My personal preference in these kind of things is to just allow for elders to grow more physically alien or monstrous as they grow in power without having to quantify it mechanically. (And if you did have to quantify it, blaming Vicissitude always works).
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May 18, 2020 22:05
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gtrmp posted:IIRC, the Dowager from those novels was explicitly a Nosferatu who originally came over from China, so it's not like there isn't already support in those books for linking the Chinese vampires in SF to the traditional Cainite clans. My personal preference in these kind of things is to just allow for elders to grow more physically alien or monstrous as they grow in power without having to quantify it mechanically. (And if you did have to quantify it, blaming Vicissitude always works). Yeah, the Dowager is fun, since it's heavily implied she fled persecution for being an actual Nosferatu rather than whatever the hell is going on with Snapping Turtle Grandpa. They're not great novels by any stretch but they set a far more interesting stage for Chinese v Western vampire conflict than San Francisco by Night, and one thing they did well is having all kinds of weird poo poo roaming around. Snapping Turtle Grandpa, whatever Hortator and Delgado's lineages are (clearly Baali at the time, but now the drowned lineages are an option), the Japanese mage Vannevar Thomas has an advisor and his efforts to keep the big one at bay, it's all great plot seeds for a game. That's part of why I looked at it and thought the compromise model might be the most helpful - we really can't fit the Grandfather in and he's explicitly part of a yellow peril plot, but his minions can do standard vampire stuff. For those unfamiliar with the difference, SF by Night went with a standard 'yellow peril invasion' model focused on just a plain old war and occupation, while Dark Prince + Prince of the City favoured a fifth column model that took advantage of the Camarilla's claim to represent all vampires by having the Chinese vanguard embed itself within the local power structures and cultivate its connections for a century and a half. The racial politics of it all are still very eye-rolly Yellow Peril bullshit but it's at least one that fostered storytelling options for longer-scale chronicles with more range than 'they invaded, now we go WOLVERINES!!!/infiltrate the provisional government/betray our brethren and join that government for real'. On the subject of more monstrous elders, what did you make of the Lasombra cardinals in the Lasombra trilogy? Menuven in particular is a whole deal since it's implied he's actually an Abyss creature that parasitizes vampires rather than an actual Lasombra.
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May 19, 2020 07:32
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I think Bruce Baugh knows the Lasombra pretty well and I remember really digging on the novels at the time.
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May 19, 2020 14:31
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Dawgstar posted:I think Bruce Baugh knows the Lasombra pretty well and I remember really digging on the novels at the time. They've got some real rough spots but they're very readable, especially given they're his first full-length novels.
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May 19, 2020 16:03
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Loomer posted:They've got some real rough spots but they're very readable, especially given they're his first full-length novels. Apparently he based the main character whose name I forget (the one who uses Obtenebration tentacles to get around) on himself* thanks to stuff he was going through at the time, although that by no means made him feel like a self-insert,and I liked the look of contrasting a Sabbat on the ground level with Lucita who was coming in as sort of an outsider. I can't say a whole lot about Lucita herself because for somebody whose life and death and beyond was characterized by being a wild child and rebel she's never had very much personality I can see, but at least she's not Fatima, I guess. *He's also one of the pre-gens in the Revised Keeper book, the "Angry Young Man" I believe it is.
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May 19, 2020 18:05
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Mage chat: When should I use a withstand rating on items? If they're casting a knowing spell on a strange set of lab equipment used for converting life force into energy, even though that function isn't being veiled by any spells, should I use a withstand?
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May 19, 2020 19:45
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Soonmot posted:Mage chat: When should I use a withstand rating on items? If they're casting a knowing spell on a strange set of lab equipment used for converting life force into energy, even though that function isn't being veiled by any spells, should I use a withstand? In my opinion, no. Just give them the answers the spell can give. A lot of the time, mage story develops better when spells just work fine with a quick dice roll. Don't make them worry about the mechanical underpinnings of simple effects unless there's a story reason they'd be facing stress or uncertainty here. If it's really important and can be determined with Knowing, they'll just toss more Knowing at the same object until they have all the information you're going to give them. The more comfortable Mage players are with using magic, the more likely they are to try more complex or risky spells, which don't need to be dogged by failure to create lots of delicious plot.
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May 19, 2020 20:36
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Alright I need some help brainstorming my vampire for an upcoming game in Savannah. The idea that came to me was "haunted house tour guide". Tours at midnight, a creepy dude with a haunted hotel for a haven. And yeah of course there's a ghost. You can stay the night, but you'll never come back! So I'm thinking Toreador or Malkavian for auspex (I see dead people). A Tory would be more of a showman and maybe town historian, using presence to make things more scary and put on a good show. The Malk gets obfuscate, is creepier and less showman, more serious, but I'm not sure I want to deal with derangements and the concept might already be too goofy. Any ideas?
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May 19, 2020 21:30
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gtrmp posted:IIRC, the Dowager from those novels was explicitly a Nosferatu who originally came over from China, so it's not like there isn't already support in those books for linking the Chinese vampires in SF to the traditional Cainite clans. My personal preference in these kind of things is to just allow for elders to grow more physically alien or monstrous as they grow in power without having to quantify it mechanically. (And if you did have to quantify it, blaming Vicissitude always works). You would have thought these wraiths would have been able to do the math about what connects to Maelstroms but to be fair wraiths have a good excuse to not engage in disPassionate analysis of all their actions.
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May 19, 2020 21:30
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ritorix posted:Alright I need some help brainstorming my vampire for an upcoming game in Savannah.
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May 19, 2020 22:01
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ritorix posted:Alright I need some help brainstorming my vampire for an upcoming game in Savannah. The important part you have to answer before deciding, I think, is who's the ghost? If the ghost is a friend (or at least knows about you and doesn't mind the tours) then you could be any of the more humane-leaning clans. Toreador is good, with a fixation on places of deep historical import. If the ghost is a servant, probably one of the Cappadocian/Hecata strains (Giovanni etc.) and you're probably a real rear end in a top hat, maybe a bit of a grumpy hermit ducking out of clan politics to get by on the night-to-night, or a failed protege making do. If the ghost is an enemy (or at least unfriendly or unhappy with being a tourist attraction), you're stubborn, a control freak, and probably both pretty hardy and a little dumb. Ventrue, Brujah, or Gangrel, and ask yourself what the hell your connection is to this house that you want to squat on it with a ghost always trying to force you out. Maybe the ghost has personal significance. Maybe you've been convinced something is buried there. If the ghost is you, Nosferatu (with some less extreme deformity) or Tremere, and you're probably a con-man who knows Kindred business better than you pretend to. Enough to know that it's smart to lay low and play small fry with your silly haunted house. Malkavian is a bad clan.
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May 19, 2020 23:55
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