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Jack2142 posted:Oh no Bigger Boat I think we have been talking past each other. OK. So, to clarify, you're saying it was an orchestrated bust and not a hit, yes? Am I reading you right? If so, I'll have to sit on that idea for a minute and look at it but, reflexively and on the surface of things, it feels anti climactic overall and counter to what Chase seemed to be showing us. I guess it works in the context of the "Only 2 Ways poo poo Ends for Guys Like Us" but there doesn't seem to be any real reason for the FBI to set up such an elaborate sting to me or bother wasting their time. They can bring Tony in whenever they want, really, as has been shown repeatedly throughout the series. Plus, they already have Carlo and seems to me they'd work on protecting him over anything surrounding putting cuffs on Tony. Let me think on this. And please correct me if I'm reading your theory wrong. E: God, what a lovely snipe. I just have a hard time getting over Bobby's "you never hear it coming" quote and the call back in The Blue Comet, off the top of my head. In retrospect, it all seems telegraphed, re-emphasized and (re) mentioned for a loving reason. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 22:02 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 21:56
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I ordered onion rings for the thread. Jerusalem, thanks for this. This was really special. I really can't see Patsy being behind this. I think he made up his mind in Season 3. It seems like he's been at peace with his decision, and if anything, he had a lot to gain by having Tony as the boss.
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May 17, 2020 22:09
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BiggerBoat posted:OK. Essentially yes, the FBI is moving to arrest him and honestly yeah it is anti-climatic. Tony gets collared goes to jail spends 20+ to life behind bars and life goes on without him and he comes out he is loving Feech, Tony B or Phil and shuffled off and sidelined. It essentially happened to Junior, it happened to DiMeo it happened to Johnny Sack so it is established bosses go to jail. Again it is also plausible that both scenarios are in play. Holstens is the first time they can get to Tony and there is also a legitimate assassination attempt coming against him for whatever reason. They moved to slow with Adriana and Pussy and they arent gonna go 0 for 3 especially if they think they have a shot at flipping a mob boss. I think he dies too, Bobbys entire line is just too prominent it hangs a shadow over every other theory. Outright dying has way more clues, but think being arrested is also a type of death. Tony never had to do hard time and the mob was his life more than anything else. If you take that away the prestige and money he gets out of it. This is like dying, he is a sad fat middle aged man past his prime with no real friends. His wife is there for the money, his son is a constant gently caress up and his baby girl doesn't need him now that she "effectively" has a husband. Tony knows what happened with all those guys who ended up under suspicion, so does he make the choice Chrissy didn't. Does he kill Tony Soprano himself and sell out the mob and become Kevin Finnerty in witness protection. Tony is a myopic person if he turns he gets to drop a nuke the entire NY/NJ Mafia which Livia would relish more than anything having that degree of power. I dont know if that is likely or even on the table, but gently caress it its not like they haven't tried to flip Tony before to get to New York. Sorry for rambling, at this point I feel like I am throwing half baked poo poo at the wall and seeing what sticks. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 17, 2020 |
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May 17, 2020 22:16
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Amazing collection of write ups. I'll never do a rewatchout without rereading Jerusalem's posts for as long as I keep watching this show. (Next will be my 6 or 7th rewatch) Thanks so much for this the best thread for the best show.
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May 17, 2020 22:46
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Jack2142 posted:Essentially yes, the FBI is moving to arrest him and honestly yeah it is anti-climatic. Tony gets collared goes to jail spends 20+ to life behind bars and life goes on without him and he comes out he is loving Feech, Tony B or Phil and shuffled off and sidelined. It essentially happened to Junior, it happened to DiMeo it happened to Johnny Sack so it is established bosses go to jail. Interesting stuff and I still haven't parsed it but it's a fun idea to think about. Especially the genuine lack of difference between dying and getting locked up for 25 years, which is really splitting hairs when you get down to it. I'll have to rewatch that scene with your theory (or whatever it is) in mind and try to see it. Also agree that for as much as these people try to pretend it's all about family, it's really all about money (which they equate with being a good parent or family member) and that the whole "I'm looking out for my family" poo poo is very much misguided and only really brought up whenever any of them are attempting to self justify what they've done, which is generally terrible. There's something to be said for putting food on the table and making enough money for your family to be comfortable relating to being a good parent, but for these folks, it's the be all and end all and they justify every murder and robbery they commit by couching it along those terms. It's all pretty much just pure greed and vigilantism, rationalized along the way.
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May 17, 2020 22:47
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did they really whack him off right in front of his family?
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May 18, 2020 00:24
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Random theory I've heard but haven't seen mentioned: The cut to black is Tony getting another panic attack and fainting.
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May 18, 2020 00:57
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Random theory I've heard but haven't seen mentioned: The cut to black is Tony getting another panic attack and fainting. When we saw his point of view during previous attacks though it was always blurred/spinning vision before he passed out.
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May 18, 2020 01:03
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David Chase called it a death scene. Respectfully, I don't think there's a lot of wiggle room for FBI raid/arrest/flip theories. Tony's dead.
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May 18, 2020 01:30
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Also canon: ajs mouth was wide open trying to fit in an onion ring and some spray flew in
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May 18, 2020 01:40
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Something I don’t often see mentioned is that Meadow could be frantic because of the aforementioned gynecologist visit and switch of birth control. I'm kicking myself for not thinking about that myself. Maybe she went in thinking her birth control was giving her weird side-effects and wanted it changed, and then found out she might also just be pregnant. Her rush in to dinner with her family with that hanging over her head, and the questions about whether to tell her family, whether to have the kid, how it will affect law school and her future employment, how Carmela will feel about that etc, it's all fascinating stuff. Somebody else mentioned earlier that while a lot of stuff gets resolved in Made in America, there does feel like a lot of setup for new stories as well. I'd lump the above possibility in with those, and it goes to further my point about our ride with The Sopranos being done. "Don't stop", and they didn't... we did. Paulie running the construction side of things, AJ getting more involved with the periphery of Tony's criminal enterprises where the best case scenario is that he ends up like Little Carmine, Patsy becoming part of the family, the Carlo testimony, Kelli Moltisanti and her baby still exist etc. Those are all stories that could have been told but won't be, we're not in that world anymore and never will be again outside of The Many Saints of Newark which is a prequel. Pissed Ape Sexist posted:David Chase called it a death scene. Respectfully, I don't think there's a lot of wiggle room for FBI raid/arrest/flip theories. Tony's dead. David Chase also frequently walks back his statements, says contradictory things, says he means death metaphorically before saying,"Or maybe literally?" etc. He seems to get a great deal of joy out of people not getting an easy answer to these questions, this was a key theme of the show for him and he wanted it to end that way. To quote that DGA article posted earlier (bolding mine): David Chase posted:That's what I wanted people to believe. That life ends and death comes, but don't stop believing. There are attachments we make in life, even though it's all going to come to an end, that are worth so much, and we're so lucky to have been able to experience them. Life is short. Either it ends here for Tony or some other time. But in spite of that, it's really worth it. So don't stop believing. The point, to me, is that we don't know, as much as we'd like to. We got one hell of a ride, then it ended, and now we're all left wondering where the ride might have gone next if we'd been able to stay on.
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May 18, 2020 01:49
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I like to think of it like the end of The Talented Mr. Ripley where Tom Ripley gets away with literally everything and comes out entirely ahead only to realize that the rest of his life's going to be spent waiting for something to slip and for the police to finally catch up with him. Tony's story is over. If he's murdered now or years later, it really doesn't matter. As Jerusalem points out, Tony's failed to grow, his family's failed to grow, all they've got now is a stagnation where Tony doesn't even recognize words from his younger self. There will probably be an arrest and a trial, and maybe Tony goes to jail or maybe Neil Mink (or jury intimidation) manages to humiliate the Feds. There will probably be someone who tries to kill him, from the Five Families or an ambitious up-and-comer or just random happenstance (all three have already happened, after all, with Richie, Phil, and Junior, and he's in a job where almost everyone else he knows in it has died)—but whether it happens right now at Holstens or in the future, whether it's a successful hit or another crazy clusterfuck that Tony narrowly survives, it really doesn't matter. There's nowhere left for him to go but further malingering before the end, a toxic void with no hope of escape. The other thing it kind of reminds me of is the biblical story of Lazarus and the rich man. The one where there's a rich man and a poor man, they both die, the poor man is rewarded, the rich man is sent to the pit, but begs God to let him warn his friends that their lifestyle is leading them to the same doom he's in. But God refuses, saying if the scriptures aren't enough evidence that their lives are leading to self destruction, what does he think a ghost will achieve? Tony goes through the final episode seeing the ruin and waste left by the Mafia. Silvio and Junior rotting away with nothing to show for their service and sacrifices, his children sliding down the path he led them to, the metaphorical ghost of Livia in his and Janice's mannerisms, perhaps the literal ghost of the young man who was like a son to him... if that's not enough evidence of his inevitable doom, what more would another ghost be able to do? After all this, we know that, whether or not he's capable of change, we finally have to accept that Tony won't. And so there's nothing more to say. And, as many have already said, great write-up Jerusalem. It really was a hell of a collection, and a whole lot of fun to read. Really, just incredible work.
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May 18, 2020 18:55
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I'm probably reaching here but I wonder if setting that scene at Holstens is in some way a reference to some of the more famous real life mob hits like Paul Castallano or Joe Gallo where the restaurants and the assassinations almost became synonymous. That it's like, a little clue that something horrible was going to happen because Tony is eating at a named, well known restaurant ala Umberto's Clam House or Sparks Steak House.
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May 18, 2020 19:13
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I felt the spirit of Jerusalem possess me, so I wrote a very long thing about the ending of the series. I wrote this before Jerusalem wrote theirs, and I think a lot of it mirrors their main point, but here it is anyway! --------  My main thoughts are this: 1. The ending was intentionally ambiguous and was meant to remain ambiguous. 2. The ending worked very well as a commentary on television and the viewing experience, but was not as good as a conclusion to the story of Tony Soprano In more detail: I think David Chase was in a bind that would be hard for most of us to imagine. He had completely upended the way TV was viewed as an art form, and popular media had spent the past 7 years flipping between lavish praise for the depth and complexity of the story, and tutting condemnation of the titillating elements of the show. Everyone was watching him to see how he would land this enormous aircraft, and whether his story would fall into a cliché or reach for something new and possibly crash in the process. Chase (as a movie fan and frustrated movie director) never wanted to do TV, so he clearly had a lot of conflicting thoughts about his surprise success. In his interviews he veers between cocky, sentimental, flabbergasted and cynical, and I think those things appear in the show as well. Tony feels like a real person in a way few characters do, and I think David Chase’s guiding hand is a big reason why. He always refused the easy choice or the pat answer, and his characters were infinitely more interesting and infinitely more frustrating for it. So as the final episode approached, he was in a lose-lose situation. A crime story only has so many possible endings, and they had all been done. But unlike other crime stories, every media outlet in the world had been spending years talking about how the Sopranos was redefining television and the entire entertainment landscape. So what could he do? This is where the episode is doomed to failure, in my opinion. In order to have a satisfying ending, the final storyline has to add something of value to the entire series. It has to create a new lens to view the story and the character. Where Tony ends up redefines all his actions that come before. Is this the story of a man who dug himself deeper and deeper in evil until his downfall was inevitable? Is this the story of a man who committed crime after crime and still walked away victorious, condemning the entire capitalist system that allows him to flourish? Is this a man who had two families and sacrificed the real one for the imagined one, only to realize his mistake too late? Or vice versa? You can argue that these points were made in abundance throughout the show’s run, but I really believe that the way the story ends is the most important statement about the theme of the work. A movie, show or book with a great ending with linger in your mind for a long time, even if the middle wasn’t great (see: Breaking Bad), where a story with a terrible ending will retroactively ruin everything that came before (see: Game of Thrones). But Sopranos had always dealt in amazing endings, so it seemed sure that Chase had one last gut punch ready to deal, one last ace to play. So many of the episodes had all-time-great endings: Think About Destruction Chickentown When It's Cold I'd Like To Die AJ Flashback Don't You Love Me? But of course, that wasn’t what happened. Instead, much to his credit, Chase managed to think of an idea no one had imagined: what if there was no ending at all? It’s a ballsy move, and clearly it was memorable, since we are all talking about it decades later. When you put yourself inside his head, it is easy to see why he thought it was the ideal choice. It was new, it was unexpected, it had a lot of ambiguity and would keep people talking, and it would keep everyone from focusing on just one moment (the ending) instead of looking at all the great storytelling that the series had created. But obviously that didn’t work, because it has been all that anyone has discussed since the show ended. 88 hours of television, and all people want to talk about is an editing choice. But that does speak to the power of his choice, as well. David Chase often wanted to blame the viewer for being bloodthirsty, or for wanting vengeance. But that wasn’t the case, at least to my mind. The viewer wanted closure, and wanted to see if the journey was worth the ride. Seeing how Tony’s story ended not only would be cathartic after spending so much time with him, but it would also allow us to view the show as one overarching tale, and view the story from a new angle. That brings us to the other part that I find frustrating, the constant attempts to decipher the “hidden clues” of the final scene. There are ten-thousand-word essays out there about why the last scene was actually Tony’s murder (numbers on the wall, onion ring communion, Bobby’s comment about “you never hear it”, Members Only guy, etc etc etc). There are also essays about how the ending really means that Tony is living in fear forever, he is constantly checking the door and looking behind his back. All of this falls flat for me, for a couple reasons. First, let’s be clear: no one is murdered at the end of the show. We clearly see nothing but a cut to black. So if your argument is that Tony is dead, let’s remember that this is just conjecture. Second, those elements just don't seem to be in the story. No characters are left gunning for Tony, and he doesn't seem to be particularly paranoid. So both would require a leap in logic to make work, which makes both seem unlikely. The ambiguity of the scene was the point, otherwise he would have shown us the ending. The not knowing is part of what Chase intended, and why he did it in this style. ”David Chase” posted:“People still ask me what happened [in the final scene]. They don’t ask me if Tony is alive or dead. But I know that’s where it’s going. My answer is, if I was going to tell you that I would have told you.” I think he did want us to debate it, so I am all about the discussions, but within 2 days it went from “what do you think happened to Tony”, to “This is what happened to Tony, I am 100% correct and will brook no argument”. As soon as someone becomes definitive about what it means, I think their argument fails. So why this ending? I think the likely answer is that Chase was in the meat grinder, and felt trapped by all the expectations for this thing that would clearly be his life’s work. So instead of focusing on the story and how to tell it, he focused on how people would view it. As with everything on this show, it is masterfully done. The tension builds, the pace quickens, the incongruous tacky 80s rock gets louder and louder, everything seems poised to explode, and then…nothing. On a rewatch it loses a lot of the tension, but the building blocks are still there, even knowing the ending. If you watched this episode live, you probably remember thinking your cable had failed. Our big Sopranos party certainly did, everyone groaned and complained while I tried to figure out what happened, and then the credits started, and everyone looked at each other in confusion. Good art causes a strong reaction, but where the Sopranos ending falters is that the reaction isn’t to the story. The universal reaction was: confusion about what happened, assumption there was a problem, then slow dawning realization that the story had just stopped in the middle of a scene. And here is the problem: That is NOT a reaction to the story of Tony Soprano. That is a reaction to media, to TV, to viewership, it is a meta-reaction, a commentary on the experience of an audience. It’s clever, it’s meta-textual, it’s brave, and ultimately…I think it doesn’t work. You can talk out a theory about what happened to Tony, you can decide the ending was right in plain sight, you can draft an essay about how only fools could not understand the REAL meaning. But if it took a 20 page essay to explain it, it didn’t work. It was a good thought experiment, a good attempt to do something unexpected, an actual good example of subverting expectations. But it isn’t a good ending for the story of Tony Soprano. Ishamael fucked around with this message at 14:50 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 18, 2020 19:38
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I can only imagine the original thread had the goons involved in quite the tizzy when it aired.
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May 18, 2020 19:43
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Chase is never going to give a definitive answer as there is no greater way to mine a fandom than do an ambiguous ending. It’s smart in a rather cynical way
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May 18, 2020 19:57
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Basebf555 posted:I'm probably reaching here but I wonder if setting that scene at Holstens is in some way a reference to some of the more famous real life mob hits like Paul Castallano or Joe Gallo where the restaurants and the assassinations almost became synonymous. That it's like, a little clue that something horrible was going to happen because Tony is eating at a named, well known restaurant ala Umberto's Clam House or Sparks Steak House. I don't think it's a stretch at all. Ishamael posted:A good post Good stuff. Yeah, Chase wrote himself into a corner to an extent, which is a another reason I think he decided to show us a conventional mafia ending (Tony getting whacked) in an unconventional way (cut to black/no blood/no guns). If Bobby's prophetic statement hadn't been used in S1 EP1 and ALSO called back in the penultimate episode, along with a few other things (customizing the backdrop to Holsten's), I might give more thought to the idea that the cut meant anything other than dying. But Chase has repeatedly said "it's ALL THERE" so those things compel me to view the final season and Made in America in particular through a more critical lens that makes me look for that very same poo poo he says IS there. Nothing he did is an accident, meaningless nor a cop out. Also, good poo poo you bring up about the impact of the show, some of the blowback it received and all the crap dealing with viewers watching it for what Chase often thought were all the wrong reasons; the Whack of the Week Club stuff. It's hard to remember, too, that this was the beginning of "Prestige Television", such as it is, and also executed using a genre that people like Coppola and Scorcese had already run into the loving ground but with a new take on a tired cliche that some still called a stereotype. I think Chase's approach to the finale and the show in general was designed to subvert expectations. He also said he had the ending planned YEARS in advance so, if that's true, all that stuff he used is there for a loving reason. I agree with you and others that the ending cut to black and what it means ultimately doesn't matter. Whatever it was or meant, it can't be GOOD though. But, to me, the motivation for doing it that way does matter. Chase didn't just decide to go "gently caress it. Cut" - at least I don't think - so that, combined with the obvious things he was doing with symbolism, POV shots, music...all of it.. almost BEGS for more interpretation. If that makes sense. EDIT: Disagree entirely with your hand waving (of most) of the symbolism. Why did Chase customize the background in the diner if none of that matters? What's the point? That diner wall doesn't look like that in real life so, for someone who pays attention to detail, why bother with that time and expense to make it look that way? BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 20:59 on May 18, 2020 |
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May 18, 2020 20:33
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Dawgstar posted:I can only imagine the original thread had the goons involved in quite the tizzy when it aired. Can someone find this (if it even exists on the internet)?
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May 18, 2020 20:42
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Jerusalem posted:Even his move into the bathroom feels like a homage to Michael Corleone retrieving a gun from the toilet in The Godfather. Throw in little things like the number 38 (also an ammunition caliber) Something clicked for me when I read this and I decided to look it up. It was indeed a .38 snubnose revolver that Michael brought out of the restroom with him in The Godfather. I don't know if anyone has pointed that out yet, just another layer to add to what appears to be many references to that particular scene. http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Godfather,_The#Smith_.26_Wesson_Model_36
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May 18, 2020 22:58
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I'm going to go on the record and declare the 38/22 numerology real dumb. Also who in the show didn't use a 9mm? (I think Jackie Jr. was killed with a .25)
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May 18, 2020 23:32
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Bip Roberts posted:I'm going to go on the record and declare the 38/22 numerology real dumb. Also who in the show didn't use a 9mm? (I think Jackie Jr. was killed with a .25) Then why redecorate the interior of Holstens at all and put those numbers there? Or the tiger? The .38 is even on the same side where where Members Only Guy exits the bathroom and who Chase is on record as re-shooting him, "working hard on that shot" and directing him in a precise way so as not to stare at Tony, right after we all get the obvious GF1 reference that Chase also even copped to as inspiration. Chase said he worked with that specific actor "A lot". Why put up that custom set and why are people noticing that are "really dumb"? Why is Chase telling us that everything we need to know is "all right there" and what else am I supposed to be looking at? Those two football players could have any random numbers and that mascot could have been anything but it was a 22, 38 and a tiger, framed very specifically. Surrounding him. I'm not saying you're wrong that it might not mean anything but to call it "real dumb" feels ..well...like a real dumb thing to say. You think he just cut to black because he couldn't think of anything else and copped out or put that stuff up there for no reason? I don't.
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May 19, 2020 00:32
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I think putting an enforced ten second period of nothingness is incredible. I think Jerusalem has the right of it, and the evidence leans towards he got whacked but really? Show's over. You can go where you want, but you can't stay here.
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May 19, 2020 00:50
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Ishamael posted:I felt the spirit of Jerusalem possess me, so I wrote a very long thing about the ending of the series. Thanks, I really enjoyed reading that. My only real disagreement is that I don't think the ending was purely a meta-textual reaction. I really like how it bookends with how we first get into the show via the same method Melfi does: we weren't there before and it was purely a bonus that we got to be there for a little while after she no longer had that privileged access. It might be somewhat meta, but no more than the show happily engaged in frequently throughout its run, and in that sense the ending is very true to the series. You make a lot of really good points though, and I absolutely agree that nobody can say definitively if Tony is dead or not because Chase very specifically didn't let us see if he did or not. They can absolutely argue and demonstrate plenty of reasons for why they think he did, and make a lot of drat good points, but Chase made it so none of us can ever really be certain.
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May 19, 2020 01:13
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I like the idea that it's some random guy settling a grudge who prob watched too many movies and thinks that's how you do it and not some experienced mob guy who would just walk in, mag dump into your chest and walk out.
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May 19, 2020 01:30
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It could also be a friend from back home who would have outdated western fashion sense and feel awkward sitting down to fake enjoyment of our 'coffee'.
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May 19, 2020 01:42
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BiggerBoat posted:Then why redecorate the interior of Holstens at all and put those numbers there? Or the tiger? The .38 is even on the same side where where Members Only Guy exits the bathroom and who Chase is on record as re-shooting him, "working hard on that shot" and directing him in a precise way so as not to stare at Tony, right after we all get the obvious GF1 reference that Chase also even copped to as inspiration. Chase said he worked with that specific actor "A lot". Why put up that custom set and why are people noticing that are "really dumb"? Why is Chase telling us that everything we need to know is "all right there" and what else am I supposed to be looking at? I'm just arguing that any two numbers and an animal would be giving the same importance as what we got.
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May 19, 2020 02:13
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And in the Godfather book it was a .22!
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May 19, 2020 02:24
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Pissed Ape Sexist posted:It could also be a friend from back home who would have outdated western fashion sense and feel awkward sitting down to fake enjoyment of our 'coffee'. Whoa hang on are you saying Furio whacked Tony?
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May 19, 2020 03:31
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I mean if we're going to be asking numerology questions why did they choose the 1973, 1971, and 1977? The godfather came out in 1972 and godfather 2 was 1974. Maybe 1977 was made to look like 1911, the gun used to kill tony? Edit: To be serious the mural was created to harken to tony's youth playing football and give the impression of old Americana for the diner scene. The numbers are people reading tea leaves. Bip Roberts fucked around with this message at 03:37 on May 19, 2020 |
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May 19, 2020 03:33
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Dunno if this was mentioned already, but Chase wanted 30 seconds of blackness after the cut and HBO did not allow it. They compromised. They jerked off in tissue.
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May 19, 2020 07:36
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escape artist posted:Dunno if this was mentioned already, but Chase wanted 30 seconds of blackness after the cut and HBO did not allow it. They compromised. They jerked off in tissue. Grilled cheese on the raddy-ate-er.
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May 19, 2020 08:37
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banned from Starbucks posted:I like the idea that it's some random guy settling a grudge who prob watched too many movies and thinks that's how you do it and not some experienced mob guy who would just walk in, mag dump into your chest and walk out. Member's Only guy's behavior makes more sense if it's a chance encounter, rather than a planned hit. So he maybe sees a guy who looks a lot like Tony going into Holstens but he's not 100% sure, so he goes in there to be certain. He sees Tony up close, then retreats to the bathroom to make sure he's properly locked and loaded.
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May 19, 2020 14:27
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BiggerBoat posted:Then why redecorate the interior of Holstens at all and put those numbers there? Or the tiger? The .38 is even on the same side where where Members Only Guy exits the bathroom and who Chase is on record as re-shooting him, "working hard on that shot" and directing him in a precise way so as not to stare at Tony, right after we all get the obvious GF1 reference that Chase also even copped to as inspiration. Chase said he worked with that specific actor "A lot". Why put up that custom set and why are people noticing that are "really dumb"? Why is Chase telling us that everything we need to know is "all right there" and what else am I supposed to be looking at? So if you assume that those numbers are intended to represent guns, I think you can create those kind of images, (the idea of death hanging over Tony's shoulders), and not have it mean that he is going to die in 10 seconds. The imagery and symbology still work to indicate looming threats in the future, there's nothing to point to the fact that it has to happen right now. I think the onion ring thing is the same idea. It can definitely represent communion, this is their Last Supper, whether he dies or not. The show is over, our window into their lives is closing. But I also think that this is why the ending doesn't work on an emotional level, despite being really interesting to debate. All of this stuff is what we are adding later, trying to find the emotional reaction we didn't get from the text proper.
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May 19, 2020 14:42
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EDIT: Double post, sorryJerusalem posted:Thanks, I really enjoyed reading that. My only real disagreement is that I don't think the ending was purely a meta-textual reaction. I really like how it bookends with how we first get into the show via the same method Melfi does: we weren't there before and it was purely a bonus that we got to be there for a little while after she no longer had that privileged access. It might be somewhat meta, but no more than the show happily engaged in frequently throughout its run, and in that sense the ending is very true to the series. Thanks! I want to take a second and thank you again for writing these episodes up, it has been so great to go back and revisit the show through a new lens. This is the best show ever made, and still my favorite after all these years. A random thing: I studied directing under Nina Foch back in grad school, and we had an assignment where we had to stage a scene from movies or TV. I picked one from the Sopranos (a scene between Richie and Janice), and when I chose it she harangued the class about how the show was low-brow garbage about sex and violence (she hadn’t seen it, just from reputation). After my actors performed the scene, she decided that she was wrong and that the writing was top-notch. So I think that is one of my big achievements, convincing a Hollywood legend to give the Sopranos a chance. Weirdly, even though all these guys were monsters, I still miss them somehow. They were so real, so fully-formed, that they felt like people you knew. Their flaws were bigger and more dramatic, but they were the same flaws we all have, writ large. It is amazing that this show ever existed, and I am glad we got to share it together again.
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May 19, 2020 14:53
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Ishamael posted:
Was it the pimping out scene?
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May 19, 2020 15:15
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escape artist posted:Dunno if this was mentioned already, but Chase wanted 30 seconds of blackness after the cut and HBO did not allow it. They compromised. They jerked off in tissue. 30 seconds of blackness would have had people kicking in their TVs with rage, sure that HBO's feed must have died. I think the 5-6 seconds plus the silent end credits made their point.
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May 19, 2020 15:15
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escape artist posted:Dunno if this was mentioned already, but Chase wanted 30 seconds of blackness after the cut and HBO did not allow it. They compromised. They jerked off in tissue. Not just 30 seconds of black, but no credits at all until the network/production title cards. He couldn't get the unions to sign off on it, though.
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May 19, 2020 15:29
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BiggerBoat posted:Was it the pimping out scene? That was Ralphie  Mommy's little hoo-agh
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May 19, 2020 15:41
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BiggerBoat posted:Was it the pimping out scene? haha now THAT would have been a class
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May 19, 2020 16:10
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crispix posted:That was Ralphie Oh, right. uh... Was it the gun to the head/"it should be you" scene?
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May 19, 2020 16:44
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