EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > EU Politics: I miss Renaults(don't make fun of me)

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

https://twitter.com/PVandenHoute/status/1258735922977398785

that's some very clear language on the part of the ECJ. Of course, it really depends on where the Bundesbank decides its priorities lie

# ? May 8, 2020 23:24

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# ? May 23, 2024 04:28

MonikaTSarn: May 23, 2005

Wouldn't it be a very dangerous precedent if each country could rule itself on how the EU and the Euro works ? Next thing you know the Italian counterpart of the Bundesbank is printing money directly and giving it to their government, and it's all legal because the Italian Verfassungsgericht said so.

# ? May 14, 2020 15:17

Randler: Jan 3, 2013; ACER ET VEHEMENS BONAVIS

It would also be a bad thing if EU institutions could themselves declare whether or not they are acting within ultra vires, because that would undermine the whole concept of the Member States being the ones to decide which competencies they transfer to the EU.

Not that it really matters, because this is a thing that will ultimately get decided by the politicians and not by the courts. Because it is not like the German constitutional court can realistically enforce its own decision against the German institutions.

# ? May 14, 2020 16:18

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

Can I have an update on Italy two weeks after the lockdown has been loosened? Are cases spiking again?

# ? May 14, 2020 17:28

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

Cases aren't, but deaths are rising again, as of today. This is speculation on my part, but it is likely due to Lombardy, the worst-hit region, deliberately reducing the number of tests and as a matter of regional policy making it extraordinarily difficult to be tested in case symptoms are showing, while preferring to re-test a larger proportion of on the way to fully healed cases in order to emphasise the number of recoveries and negative tests.

# ? May 14, 2020 17:47

lost in postation: Aug 14, 2009

About 800 new cases a day as of a couple days ago, no huge spikes as far as I'm aware.

e: ^^^ gently caress, that's not very encouraging.

# ? May 14, 2020 17:48

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Randler posted:

It would also be a bad thing if EU institutions could themselves declare whether or not they are acting within ultra vires, because that would undermine the whole concept of the Member States being the ones to decide which competencies they transfer to the EU.

The EU could just claim the member state already transfered that competency at some earlier point.

# ? May 14, 2020 19:35

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

The EU could just claim the member state already transfered that competency at some earlier point.

Actually the competences thing is pretty deeply embedded within what passes for foundational documents of the EU.

The issue is they are massively broad, as in, literally, not joking, "freedom". Hence the obsession with EU freedoms, one would assume.

edit:
Or more specifically:

quote:

The EU has only the competences conferred on it by the Treaties (principle of conferral). Under this principle, the EU may only act within the limits of the competences conferred upon it by the EU countries in the Treaties to attain the objectives provided therein. Competences not conferred upon the EU in the Treaties remain with the EU countries. The Treaty of Lisbon clarifies the division of competences between the EU and EU countries. These competences are divided into 3 main categories:

exclusive competences;
shared competences; and
supporting competences.
3 main types of competences

1.
Exclusive competences (Article 3 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union � TFEU) areas in which the EU alone is able to legislate and adopt binding acts. EU countries are able to do so themselves only if empowered by the EU to implement these acts. The EU have exclusive competence in the following areas:

customs union;
the establishing of competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market;
monetary policy for euro area countries;
conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy;
common commercial policy;
conclusion of international agreements under certain conditions.

2.
Shared competences (Article 4 of the TFEU): the EU and EU countries are able to legislate and adopt legally binding acts. EU countries exercise their own competence where the EU does not exercise, or has decided not to exercise, its own competence. Shared competence between the EU and EU countries applies in the following areas:

internal market;
social policy, but only for aspects specifically defined in the Treaty;
economic, social and territorial cohesion (regional policy);
agriculture and fisheries (except conservation of marine biological resources);
environment;
consumer protection;
transport;
trans-European networks;
energy;
area of freedom, security and justice;
shared safety concerns in public health matters, limited to the aspects defined in the TFEU;
research, technological development, space;
development cooperation and humanitarian aid.

3.
Supporting competences (Article 6 of the TFEU): the EU can only intervene to support, coordinate or complement the action of EU countries. Legally binding EU acts must not require the harmonisation of EU countries� laws or regulations. Supporting competences relate to the following policy areas:

protection and improvement of human health;
industry;
culture;
tourism;
education, vocational training, youth and sport;
civil protection;
administrative cooperation.

Special competences

The EU can take measures to ensure that EU countries coordinate their economic, social and employment policies at EU level.

The EU�s common foreign and security policy is characterised by specific institutional features, such as the limited participation of the European Commission and the European Parliament in the decision-making procedure and the exclusion of any legislation activity. That policy is defined and implemented by the European Council (consisting of the Heads of States or Governments of the EU countries) and by the Council (consisting of a representative of each EU country at ministerial level). The President of the European Council and the High Representative of the Union for Foreign and Security Policy represent the EU in matters of common foreign and security policy.

Really the big limit on everything is the budget rather than competences as such, particularly for 1. and 2., where 2. is a lot like 1. except countries can legislate where the EU chooses not to (for 1. they can't legislate at all). For 3. the EU can't create policy independent of the member states as such, but still can make binding laws as long as it's not wholly independent of national policies and they do not mandate policy harmonisation.

Even then the 3. isn't really limited in absolute, see e.g. the strong push towards harmonisation of higher education, which would at a glance run contrary to the prohibition of harmonisation of education. Harmonisation just can't be mandated but being 'encouraged' is apparently fine.

Also to be clear, EU legislation is superior and binding for all competences. Rather the EU is limited in what form the legislation can have for the ones in group 3, and group 1 is exclusively administered by the EU.

Oh and it's the EU courts who ultimately interprets the treaties, countries can decide on their own that some legislation or decision is invalid but if they do not follow it then they are subject to CJEU judgements and fines. Which happens all the time.

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 01:32 on May 15, 2020

# ? May 15, 2020 00:43

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

https://twitter.com/BJMbraun/status/1261745638775107586

# ? May 16, 2020 23:27

No. 1 Callie Fan: Feb 17, 2011; This inkling is your FRIEND
She fights for LOVE

Hmm, and here I was thinking that some inflation is good for stimulating the economy.

# ? May 16, 2020 23:45

nimby: Nov 4, 2009; The pinnacle of cloud computing.

Maybe we should aim for deflation so the rich get richer even faster. The job creators being better off is better for everyone, I'm told.

# ? May 16, 2020 23:48

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Mainstream German politics has become a cult.

# ? May 17, 2020 09:19

Angry Lobster: May 16, 2011; Served with honor
and some clarified butter.

The cult of the zero.

# ? May 17, 2020 09:24

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Angry Lobster posted:

The cult of the zero.

Ordonihilismus

# ? May 17, 2020 10:23

Rappaport: Oct 2, 2013

Kassad posted:

Ordonihilismus

Sort of obligatory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w

# ? May 17, 2020 10:42

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Angry Lobster posted:

The cult of the zero.

Can we set this wonderful number they love so much to be Germany's influence in EU politics?

# ? May 17, 2020 11:20

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

double nine posted:

https://twitter.com/BJMbraun/status/1261745638775107586

Econ experts quickly zeroing in on the problem I see

# ? May 17, 2020 11:21

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtsch...a-16775908.html

quote:

Germany and France are jointly proposing a European programme worth 500 billion euros for economic recovery after the Corona crisis. The EU is to use funds from its budget to support the sectors and regions most affected, according to a paper published by the German and French governments on Monday. To this end the EU Commission should be allowed to borrow on the financial markets in the name of the EU.

According to German Chancellor Angela Merkel (CDU), the initiative is intended to ensure cohesion within the EU. "The goal is for Europe to come out of this crisis stronger, more cohesive and in solidarity," she said in Berlin on Monday. Earlier she had exchanged views with French President Emmanuel Macron. As the corona virus has different effects in the European countries, cohesion in the Union is endangered. Merkel therefore called for an "extraordinary, one-time effort", which Germany and France were prepared to make.

After a fierce dispute over community bonds, the corona bonds, the 27 EU states had in April commissioned EU Commission head Ursula von der Leyen (CDU) to work out a model for the reconstruction plan that could be agreed upon. Due to the differences of opinion, she had to postpone the presentation of her proposal several times and now intends to present it on May 27. The Franco-German concept is close to what is known so far about the Leyens Plan.

Germany had long reservations Following the initiative of Merkel and Macron, the EU is to borrow money on the capital market and give it to crisis states as aid within the framework of the multi-year EU financial framework. The Franco-German plan would probably require an increase in the own resources ceiling in the EU budget framework for two to three years. In practice, this would mean further commitments by the EU states to the EU budget. However, these do not fall due immediately as payments; rather, they are used as guarantees to raise money on the capital market and thus drastically increase the EU budget for a limited period.

Germany had long had reservations about disbursing such money borrowed by way of loans as grants to crisis states. This would mean that the European debts would have to be repaid not by the recipient state, but jointly, presumably from the EU budget or its own EU revenues. The German government has obviously moved on this issue.

The agreement of all EU states is necessary to move forward. For its part, France has made concessions and accepted that the funds will be distributed through the EU budget. This common approach means that the usual EU budget rules apply, only projects are financed and not the national budget of individual Member States. The difference with Corona bonds is also that the joint liability for the debt is limited to the extent of the guarantees in the budget.

For a limited period of time, a European fund of 500 billion euros is to be made available to support the states most affected. Such a program would require the unanimous approval of all 27 EU states. In addition, the extension of the budgetary framework would have to be ratified in all EU states, in Germany by the Bundestag. It is questionable whether all EU states can accept the proposal. At the end of last week, the EU Commission said that there was still some convincing to be done.

Something vaguely resembling progress.

# ? May 18, 2020 23:03

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands might all veto. Also, still too small.

# ? May 19, 2020 05:10

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

MiddleOne posted:

Sweden, Denmark and the Netherlands might all veto. Also, still too small.

Are they really going to go against Germany on their own?

# ? May 19, 2020 09:29

MiddleOne: Feb 17, 2011

Orange Devil posted:

Are they really going to go against Germany on their own?

If you'd heard the idiotic populist rhetoric around anything even remotely EU budget-centric you'd know nothing is impossible.

# ? May 19, 2020 10:49

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Orange Devil posted:

Are they really going to go against Germany on their own?

Last time Sweden went to war against Germany, a third of Germany died.

# ? May 19, 2020 11:05

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

Orange Devil posted:

Are they really going to go against Germany on their own?

I doubt it. These are political blocs we're talking about, they march in lockstep, and if the senior partner decides on a line and is committed to it then the rest will fall in line. Question is, is the senior partner actually committed or are they seeking to sink it with a veil of plausible deniability?
I could go either way, since on the one hand the thing that might scare even the firmest liberal technocrat is happening: -40% output across the board in multiple countries, gigantic demand shock, soaring unemployment rates and incomes dropping. That is capital B Bad for markets and esp- for an export led economy.
On the other hand, these guys have repeatedly shown themselves to be completely unphased by reality refusing to conform to their dogma so who knows.

# ? May 19, 2020 11:19

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

�500bn is about 10% of whats required, maybe. But it is a positive that Germany is at least on-board.

The Dutch will still probably still do their best to scupper it, though.

# ? May 19, 2020 13:17

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

Blut posted:

€500bn is about 10% of whats required, maybe. But it is a positive that Germany is at least on-board.

The Dutch will still probably still do their best to scupper it, though.

I'm halfway expecting it to be watered down to 90 bn by the end. Hopefully not though

# ? May 19, 2020 15:22

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

mortons stork posted:

I doubt it. These are political blocs we're talking about, they march in lockstep, and if the senior partner decides on a line and is committed to it then the rest will fall in line.

I suppose the Frugal Four counts as a bloc.
https://twitter.com/sebastiankurz/status/1262432181571518466

Not sure if they consider Germany a senior member though.

# ? May 19, 2020 21:14

mortons stork: Oct 13, 2012

Let's not kid ourselves, if the recovery fund is truly wanted, those countries are about to get a nicely worded letter from Berlin. If not, Germany will just shrug at the next European Council meeting and say 'oh I can't really tell them how to vote now can I?'

# ? May 19, 2020 21:28

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

mortons stork posted:

Let's not kid ourselves, if the recovery fund is truly wanted, those countries are about to get a nicely worded letter from Berlin. If not, Germany will just shrug at the next European Council meeting and say 'oh I can't really tell them how to vote now can I?'

It depends on the internal politics of those countries. If a government deems it unacceptable they can and will refuse regardless of whatever carrot/stick Paris-Berlin offer in exchange.

Poland and Hungary routinely go against EU consensus even on issues extremely important to Berlin. No doubt they have suffered political influence and standing on the continent but that's irrelevant If they think the alternative is worse.

# ? May 19, 2020 23:23

Lord Stimperor: Jun 13, 2018; I'm a lovable meme.

4 countries table alternative to Merkel-Macron virus recovery fund

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/economy/4-eu-countries-table-alternative-for-merkel-macron-virus-recovery-fund/amp

# ? May 24, 2020 08:59

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Lord Stimperor posted:

4 countries table alternative to Merkel-Macron virus recovery fund

https://www.dailysabah.com/business/economy/4-eu-countries-table-alternative-for-merkel-macron-virus-recovery-fund/amp

"Our alternative is No"

# ? May 24, 2020 11:14

scumaliom: Feb 8, 2019

A lot of chat in media circles of the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden opposing any grants in favour of punitive loans.

Eventually people will start referring to them via a title of some description, the Frugal Four is pretty popular, but I'm gonna throw into the ring "NADS"

# ? May 28, 2020 12:51

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Again it's about money, the EU can make decisions just fine but the budget is limited and has to be agreed to by everyone.

It's genuinely the most dysfunctional part of EU.

Some funding has already been redirected but without a budget increase there's only so much they can do, and we're talking about a situation when even the relatively frugal EU is begging to start spending.

# ? May 28, 2020 13:01

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

scumaliom posted:

A lot of chat in media circles of the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden opposing any grants in favour of punitive loans.

Eventually people will start referring to them via a title of some description, the Frugal Four is pretty popular, but I'm gonna throw into the ring "NADS"

I am reading the comments on the YLE news articles and they are overwhelmingly in the vein of

"lazy loving southern europeans leeching of Finland again"
"southern european countries living over their means why do we have to pay for their lazyness?"
"We can't burden out children with more DEBT"

Don't expect jack poo poo from northern europe is what I am saying, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

# ? May 28, 2020 13:25

double nine: Aug 8, 2013

what is the cake in this case? An artificially depressed currency?

# ? May 28, 2020 13:36

Hiekkakauppias: Mar 26, 2008; OJ's humble beginnings in acting helped prepare him for the media spotlight in Calgary

When peopla are fed that austerity is the only sensible choice, no it has nothing to do with ideology we are pragmatists and only work based on facts unlike those leftists, then helping other countries and people even when sensible and the right thing to do is a bridge too far. Even when we are talking about money that doesn't even need to be paid back.

Sauli Niinist� is like one step above god and he loving loves austerity and just came out against schemes like this, so there is that as well.

Hiekkakauppias fucked around with this message at 15:06 on May 28, 2020

# ? May 28, 2020 14:57

Kassad: Nov 12, 2005; It's about time.

Seems to me that only verifies the idea that comments under news stories are universally written by shitheads.

# ? May 28, 2020 15:06

scumaliom: Feb 8, 2019

His Divine Shadow posted:

I am reading the comments on the YLE news articles and they are overwhelmingly in the vein of

"lazy loving southern europeans leeching of Finland again"
"southern european countries living over their means why do we have to pay for their lazyness?"
"We can't burden out children with more DEBT"

Don't expect jack poo poo from northern europe is what I am saying, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Yeah all that post 2008/2011 conditioning. Dutch reply guys are now a thing on Twitter too, a bunch of thumbs in polo shirts trying to convince you that their economy is more than just helping IKEA tax dodge

# ? May 28, 2020 16:54

Lord Stimperor: Jun 13, 2018; I'm a lovable meme.

scumaliom posted:

Yeah all that post 2008/2011 conditioning. Dutch reply guys are now a thing on Twitter too, a bunch of thumbs in polo shirts trying to convince you that their economy is more than just helping IKEA tax dodge

Well there's also Royal Shell exploiting the planet for profit.

# ? May 28, 2020 22:43

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

How deep in the pockets of Russian mafia are the Dutch politicians? It's jarring how aggressive and confrontational they are to southern countries while not standing up to Russia after they shot down a plane full of their citizens, voted to bring them back to the council, raised a stink about the agreement with Ukraine, etc.

I have asked some Dutch people about it and the narrative seems to be "we are small and too economically weak to stand up to Russia" which is just precious to hear as someone coming from a Baltic state.

# ? May 29, 2020 12:52

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# ? May 23, 2024 04:28

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

When your country is a tax heaven your politicians are beholden to the kind of people who use tax heavens.

Who could have known!

# ? May 29, 2020 13:11

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