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Zarin posted:I think I originally took it as Dyne being insane, too. But now I'm not so sure. It'll probably be expanded on one way or the other. Remember when the demo came out and you had the Stamp posters tucked away on the walls and Barret calls Cloud "Stamp" just once as a throwaway thing and people thought it was a nice sophisticated little bit of background storytelling? And then the full game came out and they absolutely ran that poo poo into the ground like it was the Sector Seven plate? Based on what we've seen so far the new FF7 series doesn't really do "subtle". It's a big pendulum swing from the original where things were vague to the point where you couldn't really have the satisfaction of figuring anything out for yourself because there was no conclusive evidence for anything one way or the other.
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May 20, 2020 18:37
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anakha posted:I'll just say that Chapter 18 is another debate entirely. Ultimania does hint that the Sephiroth appearances in Chapter 18 are different in nature from all the other times the player sees him appear in the previous chapters. I always figured he eventually commandeered them for his own uses.
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May 20, 2020 18:48
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Apparently in advent children Marlene is ask different from the other children in a way I don’t want to remember because it was advent children. But there is definitely something up with her yeah.
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May 20, 2020 18:53
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Sapozhnik posted:It'll probably be expanded on one way or the other. Imo the original was a bit TOO vague though. I remember having discussions with people about the plot and we had completely different understandings of the main points of the plot. Some of it is cool and charming some of it was just being confusing
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May 20, 2020 18:55
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I'm an idiot, I assume the reason it hasn't been done already is because the y'know, global pandemic shutting down offices around the world but do you think that the textures are going to get fixed? Or can they even get fixed, I know nothing about updates or patches.
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May 20, 2020 19:01
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Zarin posted:I think I originally took it as Dyne being insane, too. But now I'm not so sure. This is where I'm at too, and I do think it's interesting that when Dyne hears his wife, she's telling him to spare Barret instead of encouraging him. Like when you hear voices, they're usually encouraging you to do a violence. But then, maybe it's just the remnants of his conscience. I like the ambiguity of it and how it pairs with what probably happened in Nibelheim with Sephiroth ("I want to destroy everything, life is meaningless, etc")
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May 20, 2020 19:33
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anakha posted:I'll just say that Chapter 18 is another debate entirely. Ultimania does hint that the Sephiroth appearances in Chapter 18 are different in nature from all the other times the player sees him appear in the previous chapters. Chapter 18 (final boss) Sephiroth is AC Sephiroth who exists outside of time. The Whisper fight in 18 is less them stopping Seph (since they can't), but trying to stop Cloud and company from interacting with him. During the other chapters it's Illusion/PTSD Seph and Jenova/Clones Seph. And again they never truly do anything to stop those versions either, they react to the aftermath to neutralize whatever he did/said to change things. For instance if they hadn't forced the issue by harassing Aerith, it's possible she and Cloud would never have met thanks to PTSD Sephiroth delaying Cloud immediately before that moment with the Nibelheim visions.
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May 20, 2020 19:37
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RareAcumen posted:I'm an idiot, I assume the reason it hasn't been done already is because the y'know, global pandemic shutting down offices around the world but do you think that the textures are going to get fixed? Or can they even get fixed, I know nothing about updates or patches. The textures are there. It's a known engine bug and likely needs to be addressed by Epic with an update patch to the engine.
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May 20, 2020 19:39
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Proteus Jones posted:Chapter 18 (final boss) Sephiroth is AC Sephiroth who exists outside of time. The Whisper fight in 18 is less them stopping Seph (since they can't), but trying to stop Cloud and company from interacting with him. Yeah, I didn't want to get into it earlier because it was outside of the point I was trying to make, but my understanding of Chapter 18 is that AC Seph (easier to use that than Sephiroth-from-the-future) goaded the team into coming after him on the highway, after which the Whispers tried to intervene but were defeated in the process. Proteus Jones posted:During the other chapters it's Illusion/PTSD Seph and Jenova/Clones Seph. And again they never truly do anything to stop those versions either, they react to the aftermath to neutralize whatever he did/said to change things. For instance if they hadn't forced the issue by harassing Aerith, it's possible she and Cloud would never have met thanks to PTSD Sephiroth delaying Cloud immediately before that moment with the Nibelheim visions. This aligns with what I was stating earlier - the Whispers can only see the occurrence of the events that could change how history shakes out, and react to prevent history from changing. They can't see the mindfuckery going on that led to Cloud's delay, but they do see that he was delayed and acted accordingly. My take on the whole thing is that AC Sephiroth was behind the illusions, but he knew his more overt attempts to change things were getting stymied by the Whispers and goaded the team into coming after him hoping for what ended up happening in Chapter 18.
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May 20, 2020 19:51
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anakha posted:My take on the whole thing is that AC Sephiroth was behind the illusions, but he knew his more overt attempts to change things were getting stymied by the Whispers and goaded the team into coming after him hoping for what ended up happening in Chapter 18. Yeah, I agree AC Seph is responsible for PTSD Sephiroth. Jenova/Clone Seph is just the timeline unfolding as expected over how ever many iterations. As you and Flopsy both alluded to, AC Seph totally used team as catspaws to eliminate the Whispers in the Outside-of-Time-Place. I imagine that's because he was as unable to affect them directly as they were unable to affect him. So they were in an eternal stalemate of countering each other. I loved the original game when it came out, but the more time I have to reflect and re-play this game, I think I love the remake even more.
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May 20, 2020 20:03
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Proteus Jones posted:The textures are there. It's a known engine bug and likely needs to be addressed by Epic with an update patch to the engine. Yeah I'm just wondering if that's doable now with the pandemic making everything so much more complicated. Also I can understand people's complaints better now after thinking about the game. Before people got vocal about the plot dementors, I didn't think much would be changed aside from just, general shifting of events to flow better since the game's already been made and they can fix things up now. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 20:35 on May 20, 2020 |
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May 20, 2020 20:31
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anakha posted:This aligns with what I was stating earlier - the Whispers can only see the occurrence of the events that could change how history shakes out, and react to prevent history from changing. They can't see the mindfuckery going on that led to Cloud's delay, but they do see that he was delayed and acted accordingly. Or we have the far simpler explanation that the plot ghosts simply can't stop Sephiroth and as such are reduced to working around whatever mess he makes. I see this as a better theory because it doesn't rely on arbitrarily having to distinguish between Sephiroth and Sephiroth or the idea that the literal arbiters of fate that have a perfect knowledge of how things need to happen in the past, present and future are somehow selectively blind to literally the biggest threat to the timeline ever.
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May 20, 2020 20:54
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I'd argue that would require explaining why Sephiroth has been manipulating the party to get rid of the whispers. If they can't stop him, there's no reason for any of it. He'd just do what he wants. Since he wants to get rid of them, they must be able to stop him, or he at least believes they can. I think the "killing" of Barret is to lay it bare to the viewer that he has as little control over fate as the party does, at least until the end.
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May 20, 2020 21:12
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Just Andi Now posted:I'd argue that would require explaining why Sephiroth has been manipulating the party to get rid of the whispers. If they can't stop him, there's no reason for any of it. He'd just do what he wants. Since he wants to get rid of them, they must be able to stop him, or he at least believes they can. I think the "killing" of Barret is to lay it bare to the viewer that he has as little control over fate as the party does, at least until the end. The ghosts can't stop him directly, but they can make sure that the people who can stop him get where they need to be in order to do so.
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May 20, 2020 21:14
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Just Andi Now posted:I'd argue that would require explaining why Sephiroth has been manipulating the party to get rid of the whispers. If they can't stop him, there's no reason for any of it. He'd just do what he wants. Since he wants to get rid of them, they must be able to stop him, or he at least believes they can. I think the "killing" of Barret is to lay it bare to the viewer that he has as little control over fate as the party does, at least until the end. The idea is the whispers can't affect him directly (like the way they carry off Hojo, etc), but they can undo whatever he does indirectly (like reviving Barret), thereby indirectly robbing him of agency. So he'd still want to get rid of them. But I think where this argument started a ways back was whether it's better for Aerith to just let the Whispers be and give Sephiroth endless do-overs, or get rid of the Whispers and try to stop him permanently- when they can't affect him directly, he may eventually figure out a way to change fate in a way that the Whispers can't "undo."
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May 20, 2020 21:17
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Schwartzcough posted:The idea is the whispers can't affect him directly (like the way they carry off Hojo, etc), but they can undo whatever he does indirectly (like reviving Barret), thereby indirectly robbing him of agency. So he'd still want to get rid of them. But I think where this argument started a ways back was whether it's better for Aerith to just let the Whispers be and give Sephiroth endless do-overs, or get rid of the Whispers and try to stop him permanently- when they can't affect him directly, he may eventually figure out a way to change fate in a way that the Whispers can't "undo." Yeah, this is the crux here. Aerith clearly realizes that they need to break fate and actively pushes the party to do it, and this is the explanation why. Fate is losing its ability to constrain Sephiroth and it's clear that things have progressed to a point where a stalemate isn't going to cut it anymore, which also would imply that the real situation might actually be a lot more desperate than we know.
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May 20, 2020 21:36
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Cerebral Bore posted:Or we have the far simpler explanation that the plot ghosts simply can't stop Sephiroth and as such are reduced to working around whatever mess he makes. I see this as a better theory because it doesn't rely on arbitrarily having to distinguish between Sephiroth and Sephiroth or the idea that the literal arbiters of fate that have a perfect knowledge of how things need to happen in the past, present and future are somehow selectively blind to literally the biggest threat to the timeline ever. The Whispers don't have a perfect knowledge of events, they have a rough outline they're working towards. That's why you see them checking in on people at times, they're not sure what's going on when they're not watching and they want to figure that out. I really think the name is bad. They should have called them weapons of fate or something. The planet has a vision of how it wants things to unfold and they're trying to get people to follow that.
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May 21, 2020 00:34
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Cavelcade posted:The Whispers don't have a perfect knowledge of events, they have a rough outline they're working towards. That's why you see them checking in on people at times, they're not sure what's going on when they're not watching and they want to figure that out. I personally think they should of been called Spook Noodles or Spoodles if you will.
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May 21, 2020 04:09
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According to the VA, the weird noise Aerith makes after the Abzu fight was supposed to be mocking Don Corneo's style of laughter. I thought Aerith was just grossed out by the whole experience.
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May 21, 2020 04:17
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Sapozhnik posted:According to the VA, the weird noise Aerith makes after the Abzu fight was supposed to be mocking Don Corneo's style of laughter. I thought Aerith was just grossed out by the whole experience. wow I dont recall that part at all haha, i must have blocked it out of confusion. that is pretty funny link if others want to see https://www.twitch.tv/videos/627088513?t=3h42m45s aerith's va is so adorable and wholesome
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May 21, 2020 08:10
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It's kind of a trip seeing people discover SRG for the first time since I've known about her channel for years from her Life is Strange LPs. I had no idea she did VA although by her own account I think this was her first gig.
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May 21, 2020 08:38
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finished this out today, really hope future installments have a lot more stuff like the rufus fight having specific animations for punisher countering the dog (and the tightness of that fight in general)
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May 21, 2020 09:00
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Wellwinds posted:finished this out today, really hope future installments have a lot more stuff like the rufus fight having specific animations for punisher countering the dog (and the tightness of that fight in general) Imagine the Rufus fight, but it's Palmer with his Mako Gun  "Not at all, you're making me sweat. Good thing I came prepared." <Palmer pulls out some Earl Grey>
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May 21, 2020 11:40
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gredgie posted:Imagine the Rufus fight, but it's Palmer with his Mako Gun Fixed
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May 21, 2020 11:55
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Finally got through this. It was kind of weird coming off of 200 hours of Persona 5 Royal and hearing half of the same VAs doing voices in FF7R. >_> So, Aerith is basically Homura, now. That's neat. I never played Crisis Core. So, I'm kind of confused about Zack's whole situation. CC is a direct prequel to FF7, right? And he was supposed to die and have his memories transferred to Cloud to kick off the events of the original game. So, what the gently caress changed that made him survive? If the Whispers are trying to maintain the original timeline, why wouldn't they have interfered to ensure his last stand; especially since we see a shitload of them try to shield off Midgar? So, we get some timeline splits. OG FF7, FF7R, and Zack Fantasy 7 Super Redux Materia Edition? I did notice that as the Whispers were sucking up chunks of Midgar in chapter 18, that it seemed like they were just sucking up ethereal versions of those objects. So, was that time fracturing (only sucking up one version of Midgard) or absorbing the "spirit" of the objects? What would be hilarious is if the next FF7R game was a re-replay of the first half of FF7 with Zack in Cloud's place leading up to the the escape from Midgar with the true "sequel" second half the story coming out in 2030 on the PS6. (And just before the real-life apocalyptic environmental/climate catastrophe hits.)
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May 21, 2020 18:22
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AlternateNu posted:Finally got through this. It was kind of weird coming off of 200 hours of Persona 5 Royal and hearing half of the same VAs doing voices in FF7R. >_> The general assumption at this point is that the Whispers exist simultaneously in all time periods, or perhaps exist outside of time. So when the party defeated the Whispers, they were defeated for all points in time. That resulted in no Whispers being there to ensure Zack died, and so he lived in that particular timeline (which seems to be a different timeline than the primary FF7R timeline, as indicated by the different Stamp dog in Zack's scene.
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May 21, 2020 18:51
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AlternateNu posted:So, Aerith is basically Homura, now. That's neat. I never played Crisis Core. So, I'm kind of confused about Zack's whole situation. CC is a direct prequel to FF7, right? And he was supposed to die and have his memories transferred to Cloud to kick off the events of the original game. Zack's memories were never transferred, he just died and Cloud got really confused afterward.
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May 21, 2020 18:57
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Clarste posted:Zack's memories were never transferred, he just died and Cloud got really confused afterward. Yeah, it's not a memory transfer so much as "Cloud is massively dissociating for most of the original FFVII."
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May 21, 2020 19:00
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Schwartzcough posted:The general assumption at this point is that the Whispers exist simultaneously in all time periods, or perhaps exist outside of time. So when the party defeated the Whispers, they were defeated for all points in time. That resulted in no Whispers being there to ensure Zack died, and so he lived in that particular timeline (which seems to be a different timeline than the primary FF7R timeline, as indicated by the different Stamp dog in Zack's scene. This implies that something changed during Crisis Core's story that caused Zack to be able to survive the confrontation. So, that means either more future-Seph fuckery going back to before FF7R started, or Aerith's time loops had her changing things from when she first met Zack. But the latter opens up a whole bunch of metaphysical fuckery with whether that Aerith is the same or connected to the Aerith in FF7R. 
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May 21, 2020 19:03
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AlternateNu posted:This implies that something changed during Crisis Core's story that caused Zack to be able to survive the confrontation. Not necessarily. There's often the supposition that certain events come down to a coin toss on whether they turn out one way or another. The Whispers were essentially keeping all timelines more or less on the same path in the broad strokes of events that NEEDED to happen. With them gone, it could simply come down to chance as to whether Zack survived, and this time he got lucky. It doesn't mean there had to be some big plot manipulation that orchestrated his survival.
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May 21, 2020 19:09
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Basically the end of Crisis Core was Zack dragging Cloud's Mako-overdosed rear end all the way to Midgar, where Zack proceeded to fight about 50 Shinra goons, some helicopters, and then a few more Shinra goons until they finally managed to drop him. Cloud woke up, observed his corpse, and his brain broke like a twig. This game, uh...well, it appears that without Destiny saying "Zack loses here" that he pulled out a win instead. Whoops.
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May 21, 2020 19:10
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So was Eligor, acting in this instance as a jailer and collector of the souls of unhappy children, also a lifestream parasite? Did the kids rejoin the lifestream in the end because they kinda disappeared into a sky portal thing? Is there Sky Mako? Does the presence of the other ghosts you fight here and there mean it's not actually that hard to get out the questionable lifestream afterlife?
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May 21, 2020 19:42
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BaDandy posted:Yeah, it's not a memory transfer so much as "Cloud is massively dissociating for most of the original FFVII." So, how did Cloud get so good wielding a giant slab of metal? He was just a Shinra goon, right? Reading the CC synopsis, sure he was mako infused to give him super strength, but did Zack train him during CC or something? Hell, it says here Zack wasn't even the original Buster Sword wielder which is pretty LOL.
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May 21, 2020 19:50
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AlternateNu posted:So, how did Cloud get so good wielding a giant slab of metal? He was just a Shinra goon, right? Reading the CC synopsis, sure he was mako infused to give him super strength, but did Zack train him during CC or something? Hell, it says here Zack wasn't even the original Buster Sword wielder which is pretty LOL. I mean he was trying to get into SOLDIER, whose standard weapon is big old swords. Presumably he trained with one, hell in the proper Niebleheim flashback when he first grabbed the BS he lifted it with one hand then too.
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May 21, 2020 19:57
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https://twitter.com/Loopyyylupe/status/1262453907793551366 this is the best piece of ff7r fan content produced
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May 21, 2020 19:58
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He's also got a bunch of magical alien juice runnin' through his veins.
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May 21, 2020 19:58
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I'm assuming that Zack was a real bro and helped him out with some sword training (and...dance training, lol) because time passes in between the different CC segments, but the human mind is a powerful thing, so with Cloud copying all of Zack's main gestures, I'm assuming he also copied sword techniques. Like he's so delusional that he thinks he's good with swords like a first class SOLDIER would be. edit: I mean, how good at sword techniques do you really have to be in order to kill things with the Buster Sword? At least with the Masamune you have to have some finesse with it because of how long and ungainly it is. BaDandy fucked around with this message at 20:05 on May 21, 2020 |
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May 21, 2020 20:01
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Enrique Meridian posted:https://twitter.com/Loopyyylupe/status/1262453907793551366 Oh totally.
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May 21, 2020 20:03
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AlternateNu posted:So, how did Cloud get so good wielding a giant slab of metal? He was just a Shinra goon, right? Reading the CC synopsis, sure he was mako infused to give him super strength, but did Zack train him during CC or something? Hell, it says here Zack wasn't even the original Buster Sword wielder which is pretty LOL. Cloud is biologically a super soldier by the point he gets the buster sword so he's clowning on people at the start because of that more than anything else.
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May 21, 2020 20:07
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Yeah, I mean he can fake it to your average person because he's roided up on both Mako and Jenova cells, but he'd get his rear end kicked at the start of the game if a real SOLDIER showed up.
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May 21, 2020 20:17
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