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You have seen the news cycles lately right? The media and US government ( including the Falun gong who support trump) have been pushing a China narrative that's completly based on lies and you want to take the Falun gongs claims as face value?
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May 19, 2020 19:16
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GlassEye-Boy posted:You have seen the news cycles lately right? The media and US government ( including the Falun gong who support trump) have been pushing a China narrative that's completly based on lies and you want to take the Falun gongs claims as face value? The Falun gong claims have been made long before this news cycle. Are you just tuning in or what?
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May 19, 2020 19:19
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Also, pretty ballsy to claim that all of the worlds (because it's not just the USA that's irritated with China) grievances with the PRC are "completely based on lies." Fake news, right?
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May 19, 2020 19:28
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Horatius Bonar posted:The Falun gong claims have been made long before this news cycle. Are you just tuning in or what? And the claims Falun gong made before are also suspect. The current news cycle just makes it apparent how willing and apparently able the media is to push a false narrative.
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May 19, 2020 19:31
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GlassEye-Boy posted:You have seen the news cycles lately right? The media and US government ( including the Falun gong who support trump) have been pushing a China narrative that's completly based on lies and you want to take the Falun gongs claims as face value? Just out of curiosity, what lies are you referring to?
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May 19, 2020 19:37
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GlassEye-Boy posted:And the claims Falun gong made before are also suspect. The current news cycle just makes it apparent how willing and apparently able the media is to push a false narrative. What kind of evidence would you accept to show otherwise?
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May 19, 2020 19:41
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Charliegrs posted:Just out of curiosity, what lies are you referring to? China bio weapon, China lying about death numbers, China hiding details about the virus biology, etc etc
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May 19, 2020 19:43
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GlassEye-Boy posted:China bio weapon, China lying about death numbers, China hiding details about the virus biology, etc etc The "bioweapon" thing is a fringe theory not seriously being pushed by any major publication. Lying about death numbers is something that China has actually admitted to (though, always by way of throwing local officials under the bus) and since they won't allow any kind of independent verification, speculating on their true numbers isn't a "lie." Especially considering the circumstantial evidence that make China's numbers suspect. China absolutely hid details about the virus biology, or at least tried to. In addition to arresting doctors and destroying their data (which is another thing that China has officially admitted to doing recently) they also shut down the lab that sequenced the viruses genome and shared it with the world.
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May 19, 2020 19:54
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GlassEye-Boy posted:China bio weapon, China lying about death numbers, China hiding details about the virus biology, etc etc Isn't it a given that the death numbers are at least underreported by a factor of 5 if not 10 or more? My in-laws usually regurgitate the party line, but they were like you gotta take this seriously, soooo many people died here.
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May 19, 2020 19:58
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GlassEye-Boy posted:China bio weapon, China lying about death numbers, China hiding details about the virus biology, etc etc So what other human rights violations are lies in your eyes
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May 19, 2020 20:06
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Does anyone have any good sources on the Uighur concentration camps? I've heard that a lot of the claims are exaggerated by western media but I'm hesitant to believe that...
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May 19, 2020 20:07
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How can any country find out what the real number is if your medical system is overwhelmed? The only way is take the extra death number and extrapolate and ballpark infection number. That's only if your know the IFR of a given virus, not if you are facing a brand new virus. And some how all the other Asian countries like Vietnam and Taiwan figured out the Bat flu is serious without China "giving out the real infomation"? LOL.
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May 19, 2020 20:17
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Xindler's List
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May 19, 2020 20:19
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Western propaganda against the great humanitarian CCP has infected you all worse than Covid-19.
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May 19, 2020 20:26
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ToxicAcne posted:Does anyone have any good sources on the Uighur concentration camps? I've heard that a lot of the claims are exaggerated by western media but I'm hesitant to believe that... https://muslimcouncil.org.hk/muslim...commit-suicide/ https://apnews.com/61cdf7f5dfc34575aa643523b3c6b3fe https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-former-detainees-recount-abuse-in-chinese-re-education-centres/ https://apnews.com/9ca1c29fc9554c1697a8729bba4dd93b https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/30/world/asia/china-xinjiang-muslims-labor.html And there is a massive, scathing 117 page Human Rights Watch report https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideological-viruses/chinas-campaign-repression-against-xinjiangs There is also considerable documentation from the Chinese government themselves that was leaked last year, outlining the genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Cables There is a breakdown of the more significant contents here: https://www.dw.com/en/china-extreme-brainwashing-at-uighur-prison-camps-exposed-in-new-leak/a-51394542 Finally, both the Center for World Indigenous Studies and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum have explicitly called China's actions in Xinjiang genocide.
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May 19, 2020 20:26
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Also, if you can read Chinese, you can read the original unmodified Xinjiang Operating Manual from the Chinese government that was leaked to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists here: https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/exposed-chinas-operating-manuals-for-mass-internment-and-arrest-by-algorithm/ There is also an english translation available.
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May 19, 2020 20:29
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Fojar38 posted:The "bioweapon" thing is a fringe theory not seriously being pushed by any major publication. 1. Is it fringe theory when the white house is supporting it and mainstream media is writing stories on the topic? 2. China has been open about their death numbers and I want to see your proof that they aren't. They've certainly adjusted their death figures as the data was collected and evaluated but this is the same thing that every country has done. 3. What information was hidden about the virus that couldn't be attributed to not sharing until having solid data and proof?
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May 19, 2020 21:12
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GlassEye-Boy posted:1. Is it fringe theory when the white house is supporting it and mainstream media is writing stories on the topic? 1. Yes, it can still be a fringe theory even if President Dumbass tweets about it. 2. Your claim that they have been open about their death numbers is unfalsifiable, much like how speculation on where their numbers are in general is unfalsifiable, because China won't allow independent verification of the figures. That being said, the reason people believe they are much higher than reported is because A) China has a history of manipulating data on anything that the government deems politically sensitive (like virus deaths, which is obviously extremely politically sensitive even for non-authoritarian countries), and B) China's data and trend doesn't match what we know about the virus and how it spreads. Even countries that have done extremely well on the virus like South Korea and Taiwan don't have the gall to claim that their infection rate stabilized into a straight line practically overnight (and, in China's case, at almost exactly the time the Chinese government deemed controlling the outbreak its top priority.) To say nothing of China claiming the numbers it did even after the virus was spreading unchecked throughout China (and the world) for weeks if not months. 3. Are you serious? We don't know what information was hidden because the Chinese government destroyed it. We do know the sorts of data that they TRIED to hide but weren't able to thanks to the heroic efforts of Chinese researchers defying the CCP, such as the case where a Chinese team genetically sequenced the virus and shared it with the world, only to be shut down by the Chinese government for "rectification" almost immediately. So, yeah, the loving genetic sequence of the goddamn virus was among the things that they tried to hide. Who knows what else they destroyed that might have been critical?
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May 19, 2020 21:20
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The China bioweapon thing is not a fringe theory. Due to the amount of press and speculation, and indeed the President tweeting about it, it has entered the public consciousness and it at the very least being entertained as a plausible possibility by many people. I had stupid arguments about it with several friends of mine. They are also very much left leaning as opposed to people who believe it because Trump said it. It is now being used to both paper over the poor response in basically all Western countries and as a part of a general campaign to discredit international organizations and health professional. Btw, you should also add some sources to claims like "China held back and sabotaged the release of the gene sequence". e.g.: https://hongkongfp.com/2020/03/07/china-censors-report-authorities-hid-coronavirus-genome-sequence-test-results-14-days/ There is so much bullshit flying around that if you make big claims of malfeasance you should also make bloody loving clear what the evidence for it is and where the claims come from. People arguing with you won't take your word as gospel and most won't try and find a source for the claim and just blow it off. Especially when most of the material online is still praising how quickly China released the sequence (especially compared to the SARS episode) and that they were the first to do so and withing days of the outbreak officially being announced (which is also all true but...). P.S. China's overall response which did end up blocking the domestic spread of the virus wasn't great and successful because they were an autocratic nightmare with a whole slew of local officials who cared more about things looking good and normal than being good and normal. It was hampered by all that poo poo. What did help it was that it had a solid contingency plan with prepped policy and resource responses following their last couple of close calls. It was not unique in that though as shown by the success of Korea, Taiwan, and a few other countries. The US did have a solid contingency plan with prepped policy and resource responses following their last couple of close calls. However that was systematically gutted by the current administrations just before the current crisis and once the crisis hit it has been clear that there is no capacity for a federal response in the US other that blaming others, peddling woo and wonder cures pushed by their friends, and allow well connected people to grift and profit from national stockpiles and diverted good (when they are not channeled to favored Republican Governors).
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May 19, 2020 22:21
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Worth noting that other government officials and agencies stumbled over eachother refuting president idiot's claim and saying that there's no evidence at all. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/05/05/top-us-health-official-contradicts-donald-trumps-claim-coronavirus/ https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/politics/coronavirus-intelligence/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/06/politics/pompeo-wuhan-lab/index.html Although yes, him publicly lying (one of thousands of public lies) gives the conspiracy theory more momentum that might lead to something more. His toadies tried to gin up more data to back up the lie, but failed because it's actually pretty hard to entirely fabricate crimes against humanity. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/30/cia-pushes-back-at-trump-efforts-to-link-coronavirus-to-chinese-laboratories Also while Trump does tend to try start feuds with China on shaky grounds as part of his own agenda to assert US economic dominance, he generally tends to praise their domestic acts as an authoritarian autocracy out of respect for the idea of totalitarianism. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/04/donald-trump-praises-xi-jinping-power-grab-give-that-a-shot-china
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May 19, 2020 22:22
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Munin posted:The China bioweapon thing is not a fringe theory. Due to the amount of press and speculation, and indeed the President tweeting about it, it has entered the public consciousness and it at the very least being entertained as a plausible possibility by many people. I had stupid arguments about it with several friends of mine. They are also very much left leaning as opposed to people who believe it because Trump said it. It is now being used to both paper over the poor response in basically all Western countries and as a part of a general campaign to discredit international organizations and health professional. "It escaped from a Chinese lab" is the more widely entertained theory, and I would call that theory mainstream. It doesn't help that China won't allow independent investigation and scientists have to admit its plausible even with no proof when asked about it. "It's a Chinese bioweapon" is the fringe theory in large part due to the fact that if it was engineered it would be immediately obvious the moment anyone actually looked at it. And you're right, blaming China/the WHO IS being used to paper over the poor response in a lot of Western countries, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the blame is misplaced. Ultimately, what got us to this point is a cascading failure across every relevant actor. The Chinese government, the WHO, the US government, various other governments, manufacturers/distributors, multinational corporations, and even the general public itself are all responsible to various degrees because all of them hosed up in some way. That being said, I think that while in the long run Americans are going to mostly view this episode historically as being inextricable from Trump's legacy, China is ultimately going to be the actor that gets judged the harshest globally solely because its action or inaction at ground zero determined the course of the entire outbreak. Munin posted:Btw, you should also add some sources to claims like "China held back and sabotaged the release of the gene sequence". e.g.: I thought I did but you're correct. Here is another source (from a paper owned by Jack Ma so people can't even claim political bias) https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3052966/chinese-laboratory-first-shared-coronavirus-genome-world-ordered
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May 19, 2020 22:45
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The virus didn't need to escape for a lab for china to be implicit in the spread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4KWYXm_-4g&t=610s  
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May 19, 2020 23:08
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Fojar38 posted:"It escaped from a Chinese lab" is the more widely entertained theory, and I would call that theory mainstream. It doesn't help that China won't allow independent investigation and scientists have to admit its plausible even with no proof when asked about it. Even the "escaped from a Chinese lab" version is also very fringy and, frankly, doesn't really add anything to the conversation. We already had a number of close calls pandemic wise and it has been clear for years that something like this was on the cards. It happened to be China where a virus hit the jackpot but if things had fallen slightly differently it could have been MERS hitting the jackpot or swine flu. It being a lab accident is an outside chance and it pisses me off that there seems to be a near bottomless need to find a simple human source, something or someone with agency, to blame what nearly totally certainly a natural event like the outbreaks with less serious consequences before it.
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May 19, 2020 23:21
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GlassEye-Boy posted:1. Is it fringe theory when the white house is supporting it and mainstream media is writing stories on the topic? You..... Know who our president is don't you?
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May 20, 2020 01:31
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https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1262999004532572160
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May 20, 2020 08:25
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Disneyland with death penalty upgrades to Disney plus.
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May 20, 2020 12:23
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Munin posted:Even the "escaped from a Chinese lab" version is also very fringy and, frankly, doesn't really add anything to the conversation. Sigh ...... What's your take on the Chinese scientists and students that were expelled from Canada in the middle of 2019. You know, the spies/thieves that were working in the Winnipeg Level 4 bio-lab studying as it turned out, the coronavirus. Did you know that after they were punted outta Canada (as an aside, that takes some doing. They must have been up to something quite notorious) they promptly set up shop in YES you guessed it, that very same Wuhan bio facility that everyone likes to point at. What's your call??? they were persecuted by racists?? You know that in Canada at least, our yearly flu shots are based on whatever bi-nasty bug is flourishing in SE Asia at the time. Every year since about 1957 when China burped out another Pandemic. Take a critical look at the history of the origin of Influenza in the last hundred years or so. Get a map at the same time. See if you can find a common theme. "It happened to be China where a virus hit the jackpot" is a pretty wild take. Almost every year China gives birth to a deadly virus. They have been for a very long time. "to blame what nearly totally certainly a natural event" - ha ha ha ha, eating bush meat from those abattoirs they call wet markets is not, what did you call it????, "a natural event" you weak-rear end apologist. You are a knucklehead if you truly believe what you type. TBF, you should prolly get more than 50 cents for that post considering the effort you put in to it. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 21, 2020 03:46
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it was probably just a bat dude
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May 21, 2020 04:02
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BrainDance posted:it was probably just a bat dude Actually a new theory now is it comes from minks.
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May 21, 2020 04:54
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Charliegrs posted:Actually a new theory now is it comes from minks. Everyone comes from minks. So sleek. So... erotic.
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May 21, 2020 05:08
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Nucken Futz posted:"to blame what nearly totally certainly a natural event" - ha ha ha ha, eating bush meat from those abattoirs they call wet markets is not, what did you call it????, "a natural event" you weak-rear end apologist. Did you know the Chinese government has been trying to reduce the bush meat trade for some years now? I have a book from 2016 which discusses it. Even on the most cynical reading of the CCP, culling their own population is... unlikely to be on their bucket list. In addition given the CCP is very clearly blasting a modernisation agenda, I doubt busheat markets feature high on their plans for the future.
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May 21, 2020 05:24
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Purple Prince posted:Even on the most cynical reading of the CCP, culling their own population is... unlikely to be on their bucket list. Considering the CCP's history, are you sure about this? (I don't think that this was an intentional thing but the CCP holds Chinese life in notoriously poor regard.)
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May 21, 2020 05:56
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Purple Prince posted:Did you know the Chinese government has been trying to reduce the bush meat trade for some years now? I have a book from 2016 which discusses it. Cha ching!!, another 50 cents gets deposited.
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May 21, 2020 06:03
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Nucken Futz posted:Sigh ...... uuh, right. Btw, do you have any idea where MERS and the swine flu stem from? I did specifically call them out in my post. Also, China is not the universal bellwether for flu seasons. Southern hemisphere nations are often the leading indicator for a bad one for obvious reasons. Not to mention that the strains circulation through flu seasons are very different from the ones driving SARS, MERS, and Covid-19. These strain are pandemic and endemic. The coronavirus behind Covid-19 is pandemic and, given the current global response, has a decent chance at becoming endemic leading to fun for years to come (but most likely with lower lethality as our immune systems become accustomed to it through vaccine or exposure). The viruses causing SARS, and MERS thankfully never made the jump to pandemic and endemic that level due to them being too lethal and debilitating to quickly and not being transmissible while asymptomatic. You are badly misinformed about flu.
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May 21, 2020 07:10
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Nucken Futz posted:Cha ching!!, another 50 cents gets deposited. Omg reddit is leaking. gently caress off.
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May 21, 2020 18:17
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The last few decades have seen a rise of new contagious diseases. This is in part due to a rise in meat consumption which is tied to factory farming and bushmeat trade. Since the advent of agriculture, new infectious diseases have usually come from animal to human transmission. More meat consumption -> more factory farming and bushmeat trade -> more new infectious diseases. The UN has warned countries in the past that we were at risk of a global pandemic. A global pandemic has been at risk of happening for some time now, no need for biolab bullshit. https://youtu.be/7_ppXSABYLY Mmm yes, now time to collect my 50-cent army sorosbux bitch
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May 21, 2020 18:26
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Living large with those bat meat bux
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May 21, 2020 18:30
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Here is a video of President Tsai Eng-Wen of the Taiwan Republic talked about how much she enjoy eating bat soup when she visited one of those countries you never heard of (Palau). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1u5D0-icwA stephenthinkpad fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 21, 2020 |
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May 21, 2020 18:58
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stephenthinkpad posted:Here is a video of President Tsai Eng-Wen of the Taiwan Republic talked about how much she enjoy eating bat soup when she visited one of those countries you never heard of (Palau). Your right we should militarily invade Taiwan and execute all traitors.
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May 21, 2020 19:11
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the idea of treating 'bush meat' as some strange thing is inherently racist considering here in the south we eat gator, snake, possum, everything, but if you give it a scary primitive sounding name it becomes bad and dirty. There's been very little proof about this 'escaped a lab' theory but we push it because it gives an easy enemy and maintains the idea that China is some uniquely spooky and shady government compared to, ya know, us.
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May 22, 2020 00:21
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