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2 weapon limit is what makes Legendary combat in that game interesting and I can't think of a scenario where having more slots would make combat better, just feels like a case of 'if only this game were more like the 90s' definitely hard for me to go back to that movement speed though yeah
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May 27, 2020 12:18
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I can't think of a single scenario that makes me think 'oh boy if I only was limited to cycle between these two weapons and be constantly picking others on the ground the game would be so much more fun!'.
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May 27, 2020 13:39
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when i beat legendary there were a bunch of times i was running around with like rocket + sniper rifle stripping elite shields with rockets and then headshotting them with sniper rifle or running around with both shotgun and sword with no ranged option and just making that work. with 4 weapon slots you'd literally always be carrying plasma pistol + ar/carbine to 2 shot elites and then whatever else and you'd never have to work around the weaknesses of power weapons because you'd always be able to fall back on the generalist weapons you're carrying.
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May 27, 2020 13:49
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Yeah, the reason it's interesting is that it doesn't let you hold the entire set of gameplay options in your pocket all the time, you have to constantly pick and choose what your capabilities are even in the middle of a firefight and work with what you can and cannot do at any given moment. And the options available to you change as you make kills and take territory.
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May 27, 2020 13:58
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Maybe, and I'm going out on a limb here, maybe, there are cases where games should have large, expansive arsenals available to the player at one time, and cases where they should have limited options and loadouts.
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May 27, 2020 14:14
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Tbh I would kind of like a version of Halo 1 where you move at Quake speed and carry every weapon. No it wouldn’t be balanced or anything but it could still be fun. With 2/3 you would need some kind of weapon limit though, there’s just too many
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May 27, 2020 14:25
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Ehh, I'd say using weapons like rocket launcher and sniper rifles in non-ideal situations, or running around with a shotgun trying to force close combat is something that happen in most FPS, weapon limit or not. To be honest, I fail to see what's special about using RL to destroy shields and then using a sniper rifle to headshot a strong enemy in the hardest difficulty. It's a strong enemy in the hardest difficulty, of course you need the highest DPS you have to deal with them? The game throws you new weapons constantly as you kill enemies, so you also are rarely limited for real, it's more the bother of picking them. Also, other games make up those uneven situations with the ammo they give you, instead of using a weapon limit. In any case, most weapons in Halo are general enough to allow to be used on most enemies while you run & gun on close to medium range, and of course the long range weapons still hurt on close range, although I guess it depends of what difficulty you play. edit: and of course I have no issues in a weapon limit in something like Arma. Not that matters a lot, that point was something I'd change if possible, but it isn't key. What really bothers me is actually the regen. shield. And yes, I played shooters with similar system for years. Halos, CoDs, GeoWs, Bullestorm, etc. It's still my least liked system. If the difficulty is slow it makes the game boring, if the difficulty is high it makes it slow and frustrating. Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 14:54 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 14:35
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Halo is the only fps off the top of my head where I found the weapon limit to be integral to its design because the weapons all have different utility and the enemies respond to them in kind. Surprise surprise when the copycats came they didn't balance around this limitation. There's certainly a meta behind human v human multiplayer but in singleplayer you kill a guy in one headshot so my weapon choice in most shooters comes down to what flavor of assault rifle I want. WW2 singleplayer shooters are especially boring because you're just making a mad dash to ditch your garand or whatever for a greasegun or sturmgewerh.
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May 27, 2020 15:41
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Hahah oh wow you guys got me. You really had me going for a minute. Imagine people in this thread actually defending the 2 weapon limit lol
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May 27, 2020 15:54
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The weapon limit in Halo is something I think worked really well until they tried to introduce a third set of weapon typed. Like Id never have touched the needler if you didn't eventually run out of ammo for human weapons to find out "oh, oh my" when you get it to make someone go boom. The ammo limitations I think are the big thing, its not scared to let you go dry and force you to new weapon sets making you debate between babying an ammo pool or just having a second fully ready weapon. So many games that came after guns ammo could be used across different weapons or there were convenient restock stations so you never needed to worry. Also the guns in halo have very distinct profiles so you aren't confused about what you are picking up off the ground and trying to figure out if this machine gun is better than the other. Its even nice within the context of the game as a story/experience because it helps establish areas as under more human or alien control and gives a sense of really using everything available to win this fight. Barudak fucked around with this message at 16:05 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 15:57
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Ammo is another thing Halo imitators never understood and I’m surprised FPS games post-2004 just didn’t give you infinite ammo. It’s like 1-ups in Mario games, it hasn’t been a resource worth concern since the 90s.
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May 27, 2020 16:03
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al-azad posted:Ammo is another thing Halo imitators never understood and I’m surprised FPS games post-2004 just didn’t give you infinite ammo. It’s like 1-ups in Mario games, it hasn’t been a resource worth concern since the 90s. How would you incentive not holding down the trigger all the time? Regenerating ammo? Weapons that overheat, so essentially regenerating ammo on a micro timescale?
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May 27, 2020 16:45
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Just popping in to say that weapon limits are whack and why the HECK would I even bother playing a first person shooter if ammo collection/management wasn't part of the gameplay loop. That's PART OF THE FUN.
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May 27, 2020 16:48
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al-azad posted:Ammo is another thing Halo imitators never understood and I’m surprised FPS games post-2004 just didn’t give you infinite ammo. It’s like 1-ups in Mario games, it hasn’t been a resource worth concern since the 90s. I will reply, but I think Barudak above you basically did the argument for me!
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May 27, 2020 16:53
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May 27, 2020 16:54
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Speaking of weapon limitations, I've been replaying the Uncharted series. I don't necessarily think its the right move (and Uncharted's combat serves a very different purpose than a straight FPS) but its definitely intentional. In addition to the two weapon limit, the game purposefully gives each gun a very low maximum ammo limit - ensuring that you're always scrambling for the next bit of ammo sprinkled near the latest enemy. In other words, its used to ensure you don't just hang back in one place and stop-and-pop your way through the larger encounters.
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May 27, 2020 16:58
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The combat in the Uncharted games is loving terrible though? I mean perhaps that's an intentional thing they did, but it doesn't stop the combat from being loving dire.
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May 27, 2020 17:03
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Nah I like Uncharted’s combat but it falls under the same “problem” as Max Payne 3 where it presents itself as a cover shooter but enemies are more aggressive the longer you’re in cover so the correct way to play is like John Wick. Twerk from Home posted:How would you incentive not holding down the trigger all the time? Regenerating ammo? Weapons that overheat, so essentially regenerating ammo on a micro timescale? That would be a fun kind of “can you beat Spyro without jumping” kind of video. How far into Call of Duty can you get just holding down fire? Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Just popping in to say that weapon limits are whack and why the HECK would I even bother playing a first person shooter if ammo collection/management wasn't part of the gameplay loop. That's PART OF THE FUN. That’s the problem, until this new wave of retro shooters resource management was rarely a thing in shooters. Like which shooter introduced the infinite ammo resupply box because that was it right there, the death of resource management in singe player games. al-azad fucked around with this message at 17:23 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 17:20
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Titanfall had a two weapon limit and Titanfall rules
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May 27, 2020 17:32
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Getting rid of keys, and adding two weapon limits and regenerating health also affected the way maps in FPS games were built. No need to make an elaborate maze if there's no health, ammo or keys to collect, just make a linear corridor with some small branching paths that lead to dead ends and hide some dumb collectibles there instead.
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May 27, 2020 18:33
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Eyud posted:Titanfall had a two weapon limit and Titanfall rules Titanfall rules in spite of the weapon limit, not because of it. The star is the level design and combat encounters, definitely. ....But mostly it's BT  The latest System Shock remake demo is now available on GoG. https://www.gog.com/game/system_shock_demo Al Cu Ad Solte fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 19:26
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Titanfall rules in spite of the weapon limit, not because of it. The star is the level design and combat encounters, definitely. Any idea if it's different from the last one they put out?
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May 27, 2020 19:31
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Turin Turambar posted:Ehh, I'd say using weapons like rocket launcher and sniper rifles in non-ideal situations, or running around with a shotgun trying to force close combat is something that happen in most FPS, weapon limit or not. To be honest, I fail to see what's special about using RL to destroy shields and then using a sniper rifle to headshot a strong enemy in the hardest difficulty. It's a strong enemy in the hardest difficulty, of course you need the highest DPS you have to deal with them? the thing that's special, and this is contingent on something very specific, which is that i'm not that good at videogames, is that hipshot headshotting guys with the sniper rifle/using it in close quarters is hard for me and high risk because if i miss too many shots i just die. i was ending up in situations where i wanted my RL around for groups and sniper for snipey things but i have to get them through this tight hallway with 4 elites so okay i'm gonna splash all of them and then try to hipshot them all quickly before their shields regen. if you add a third weapon slot i have BR/Carbine in there and instead of having to display some skill to use the sniper rifle in a non ideal situation I'm hitting much easier shots with that where it excels. Add a fourth slot and I'm just carrying plasma pistol + BR the whole game and elites aren't an enemy type anymore. Basically how I'd explain the weapon limit is, in the halo 2 arsenal as you move up in power level you lose general applicability (fast fire and midrange ease of use) moving hard into short or long range or... rocket launchers. As the game gets harder (or because it's fun) you want the power weapons more and more and so you start sacrificing your general application weapons and using power weapons in areas they aren't ideal or changing how you approach areas to make them ideal. Now you're right that you can just give the player a full arsenal and make them do careful resource management to achieve some of the same effect but at that point you're asking to be playing a different game, and the game that halo 2 is already works quite well. skasion posted:Tbh I would kind of like a version of Halo 1 where you move at Quake speed and carry every weapon. No it wouldn’t be balanced or anything but it could still be fun. i, too, would like Marathon 4
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May 27, 2020 19:45
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Mordja posted:Any idea if it's different from the last one they put out? Seems like this one is just the one that backers got two months ago, just made public now.
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May 27, 2020 19:54
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Al Cu Ad Solte posted:Seems like this one is just the one that backers got two months ago, just made public now. And hopefully playable!
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May 27, 2020 20:17
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Wrath Aeon of Ruin is 20% off in Steam
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May 27, 2020 20:32
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Twerk from Home posted:How would you incentive not holding down the trigger all the time? Regenerating ammo? Weapons that overheat, so essentially regenerating ammo on a micro timescale? Most modern games punish that with recoil. ...cure's worse than the disease. Turin Turambar posted:Wrath Aeon of Ruin is 20% off in Steam Seems weird. It's still in EA. 3D Realms aren't hurting for cash, surely?
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May 27, 2020 20:38
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KOGAHAZAN!! posted:Seems weird. It's still in EA. 3D Realms aren't hurting for cash, surely? It's pretty common at this point. Lots of EA games I've seen had sales from time to time.
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May 27, 2020 20:47
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On the theme of "later games launch with Halo's weapon limit but don't understand it", Duke Nukem Forever launched with a two weapon limit. They later patched it (only on PC) to four. They didn't even try to pretend the limit was for gameplay reasons either: George Broussard posted:You cannot discount designing games for a modern world and part of that world is consoles where the bulk of the sales can be. And on those consoles you have a controller.
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May 27, 2020 20:52
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wafflemoose posted:Getting rid of keys, and adding two weapon limits and regenerating health also affected the way maps in FPS games were built. No need to make an elaborate maze if there's no health, ammo or keys to collect, just make a linear corridor with some small branching paths that lead to dead ends and hide some dumb collectibles there instead. I think FPS design was already trending towards that style, with games like Half-Life and the like. Arguably I feel it could be that the opposite was what happened, that regenerating health and weapon limits were a reaction to that more linear and "cinematic" map design, though it's also likely it was done in with controllers over MKB in mind as well.
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May 27, 2020 21:00
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Turin Turambar posted:It's pretty common at this point. Lots of EA games I've seen had sales from time to time. Yeah Early Access stopped being a meaningful term years ago.
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May 27, 2020 21:08
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Pretty much every low budget game is released early access including Dusk and Ion Fury.
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May 27, 2020 21:13
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Eyud posted:Titanfall had a two weapon limit and Titanfall rules Three weapons technically, at least in Multiplayer, though Titanfall also gives most weapons in Multiplayer unlimited ammo Nition posted:On the theme of "later games launch with Halo's weapon limit but don't understand it", Duke Nukem Forever launched with a two weapon limit. They later patched it (only on PC) to four. Which is idiotic cause console FPS games have had the weapon wheel as a solution to that issue for years before DNF
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May 27, 2020 21:29
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Eyud posted:Titanfall had a two weapon limit and Titanfall rules Yes, but did it rule because it was a two weapon limit? Or would have ruled the same (or even more) if you could have 3 weapons?
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May 27, 2020 21:32
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Turin Turambar posted:Yes, but did it rule because it was a two weapon limit? Or would have ruled the same (or even more) if you could have 3 weapons? It does have 3 though
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May 27, 2020 21:35
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Turin Turambar posted:Wrath Aeon of Ruin is 20% off in Steam Was there ever an answer beyond a reasonable doubt as to whether this one was made by horrible people or not?
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May 27, 2020 21:37
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It's made by people who have the good sense to keep potentially horrible opinions to themselves. The Quake mapping community is generally a chill crowd.
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May 27, 2020 21:48
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JerryLee posted:Was there ever an answer beyond a reasonable doubt as to whether this one was made by horrible people or not? It's not the Ion Maiden guys if that's what you mean? edit: yeah, I forgot they renamed it 
Convex fucked around with this message at 21:59 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 21:54
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Convex posted:It's not the Ion Maiden guys if that's what you mean? You mean Ion Fury? Which dang, I just learned about and looks cool, but I guess I won't buy it if that supports chuds
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May 27, 2020 21:56
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Notes from my first play-through of Quake 2: The Reckoning. Ammo is kind of scarce for how many super tanks they throw at you, two at once where you first meet them and then one right after that. Also, I had to backtrack through 4 entire levels because it was possible to leave a level without an item that I needed, a "data CD". I felt like the Quake 1 mission packs were actually better than the base game's levels, but that doesn't seem true at all for Quake 2. These just feel rough.
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May 27, 2020 22:08
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