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If detachments cost CP, maybe the detachments with no mandatory troop selections will cost more CP.
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May 31, 2020 23:31
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Stephenls posted:If detachments cost CP, maybe the detachments with no mandatory troop selections will cost more CP. Almost certainly.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:14
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That solution is still approaching the problem as 'Troops are a tax you must pay' though, whereas what should be popular is 'Make Troops a good thing to take'.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:28
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Troops can now say gently caress
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Jun 1, 2020 00:42
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Is this dumb or should it just be impossible to hold objectives without troops. If you have the option to build without them and potentially a lot more efficiently there's gotta be a serious drawback, and I don't see anything but a near-crippling CP malus for not taking them that makes bringing most troops appealing. Or they could just change objective secured to be "these are just the models that hold objectives now, nothing else will do". Honestly though none of this makes as much sense to me as GW just overselling the amount of freedom we'll have in forming detachments and the point will be moot come 9th when we'll still be building lists that look more or less like the ones we have now.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:46
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Improbable Lobster posted:Troops can now say gently caress Warhammer is rude now.
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Jun 1, 2020 00:50
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Improbable Lobster posted:Troops can now say gently caress But only once per game, otherwise the games rated MA.
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Jun 1, 2020 01:27
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Improbable Lobster posted:Troops can now say gently caress Universal Stratagem to force your opponent to also say it once.
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Jun 1, 2020 01:34
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ultramarines can still only say fr*ck
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Jun 1, 2020 01:37
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Shockeh posted:That solution is still approaching the problem as 'Troops are a tax you must pay' though, whereas what should be popular is 'Make Troops a good thing to take'. For most armies, troops are a Good Thing to take, not just a tax to fill out CPs.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:02
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I keep finding myself wanting 4 units of troops instead of the minimum 3 and this will not change when I don't need them to generate command points, as I still need warm bodies to actually fight the battle, hold ground and protect the other units.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:07
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Shockeh posted:That solution is still approaching the problem as 'Troops are a tax you must pay' though, whereas what should be popular is 'Make Troops a good thing to take'. Troops still have ObSec. That itself is a good reason.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:12
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Which armies wouldn't take troops if they didn't have to?
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Jun 1, 2020 02:13
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You can make the case intercessors are the best unit in the marines book.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:16
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Gunder posted:Which armies wouldn't take troops if they didn't have to? Custodes, Knights, and Chaos Knights at the very least.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:17
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Gunder posted:Which armies wouldn't take troops if they didn't have to? tau probably
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Jun 1, 2020 02:19
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Come to think of it, I could see Craftworld Eldar players being happy not to have to have Guardians or Dire Avengers. e: And for THAT matter, with the effectiveness of Paladin Bombs, being able to ditch Strike Squads in favor of maximum Paladins is probably what Grey Knights would like to do. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 02:27
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Spanish Manlove posted:ultramarines can still only say fr*ck Gonna fill all my heavy support slots with H-E-Double-Hockeysticks Blasters
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Jun 1, 2020 02:32
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Booley posted:For most armies, troops are a Good Thing to take, not just a tax to fill out CPs.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:38
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jng2058 posted:Custodes, Knights, and Chaos Knights at the very least. Knights and Chaos Knights can already get by without taking troops, Custodes can function pretty drat well with saggitarum guard as troops. Spanish Manlove posted:tau probably Competitive tau lists are definitely taking breachers.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:39
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Booley posted:Knights and Chaos Knights can already get by without taking troops, Custodes can function pretty drat well with saggitarum guard as troops. You never see competitive Knights without a Loyal 32, or their heretical cousins for Chaos Knights because they just don't generate enough CP to fuel all those expensive strats otherwise. You rarely see competitive Custodes without a Loyal 32 for the very same reason. If a Custodes player can put all his points into Jetbikes and Forge World hovertanks, he will.
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Jun 1, 2020 02:45
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Someone did a photoshop of "What if we put Shrike's head on the Judicar?" Answer: Anime 
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Jun 1, 2020 03:38
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Clawtopsy posted:Someone did a photoshop of "What if we put Shrike's head on the Judicar?" i take back everything bad i ever said about both models
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Jun 1, 2020 03:59
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jng2058 posted:You never see competitive Knights without a Loyal 32, or their heretical cousins for Chaos Knights because they just don't generate enough CP to fuel all those expensive strats otherwise. Right, this is in reference to 9th doing away with detachments giving you CP. Taking the loyal 32 will no longer be necessary to get CP for knight players.
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Jun 1, 2020 04:29
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Deified Data posted:Is this dumb or should it just be impossible to hold objectives without troops. If you have the option to build without them and potentially a lot more efficiently there's gotta be a serious drawback, and I don't see anything but a near-crippling CP malus for not taking them that makes bringing most troops appealing. This is actually something warmachine does that I think is a good idea. If you want to win by scoring objectives you have to have some warrior models(their version of troops), giant stompy robots and monsters can't do that part.
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Jun 1, 2020 04:35
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Clawtopsy posted:Someone did a photoshop of "What if we put Shrike's head on the Judicar?" Now I have to buy a Shrike
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Jun 1, 2020 04:47
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JackMann posted:Right, this is in reference to 9th doing away with detachments giving you CP. Taking the loyal 32 will no longer be necessary to get CP for knight players. No poo poo. That's the whole freakin' point. The original question was: "Which armies wouldn't take troops if they didn't have to?" To which I said Knights (both types) and Custodes. Booley argued that in 8th these armies either don't need Troops (Knights) or can get by with their existing Troops (Custodes), and I pointed out why he's wrong...because in 8th edition, Knights and Chaos Knights DO have to take Troops...a different army's Troops at that....if they want to be effective because of CP. And that while you sometimes see Custodes with just their own really expensive Troops, the vast majority of competitive Custodes players don't bother and Soup in a Loyal 32 instead so they can spend more points on Jetbikes and tanks. But if 9th removes the CP requirement, then those armies will almost never take Troops again. Neither version of Knights will for sure, and Custodes will overload on the flying circus elements of their list that are the most effective. And now you're essentially restating my whole point back to me, which, honestly, is a little frustrating. In short: Gunder posted:Which armies wouldn't take troops if they didn't have to? Knights, Chaos Knights, and Custodes.  Also I can make decent arguments why Craftworld Eldar and Grey Knights won't either.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:03
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What are the loyal 32, please?
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Jun 1, 2020 05:04
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Clawtopsy posted:What are the loyal 32, please? Minimum sized guard battalion. Two company commanders and three units of guardsmen. They don't do much on their own, but they're a cheap source of CP.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:07
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Clawtopsy posted:What are the loyal 32, please? Imperial Guard detachment, 2 cheap HQ units and 3 10 man squads of Guardsmen (or Conscripts, can't remember off the top of my head). Cheapest way to get a Battalion detachment out of any Imperial faction so it's used to act as a Command Point battery for more CP hungry factions like Knights and Custodes, especially if you throw a CP regenerating relic on one of the characters. Of course, 9th's gonna try and kill that style of army building, so its likely the whole thing will be thrown out in like a month, along with all its various counterparts from other factions (Heretical 17 etc). Edit: gently caress, beaten.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:09
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JackMann posted:Minimum sized guard battalion. Two company commanders and three units of guardsmen. They don't do much on their own, but they're a cheap source of CP. Ah. Are they like, mathed out to be the most cost-effective way, point for point, to get more Command Points for Knights?
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Jun 1, 2020 05:09
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Clawtopsy posted:What are the loyal 32, please? It's an Imperial Guard Battalion Detachment that has two Company Commanders and three ten man Infantry Squads for 180 points if you get them no upgrades. Thirty two models who are "loyal" because you seem them in so many battles. That, under 8th edition rules, gets you a sweet 5 extra CP and some disposable bodies who can sit on objectives for you. Knights need that because they don't have a good way to get extra command points, and their strategems are both expensive and of high quality. Custodes need them because they also need extra command points, and because if they don't have a source of cheap bodies their wasting hugely expensive Custodes Troop choices just sitting around on objectives. There's a Cultist version via Chaos Space Marines for Chaos Knights.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:14
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Clawtopsy posted:Ah. Are they like, mathed out to be the most cost-effective way, point for point, to get more Command Points for Knights? Yes. Every Battalion is worth the same amount of CP, no matter what army it's made up of, so the math is really easy -- "Which set of three Troops and two HQs costs the least points?" Turns out Guardsmen equipped with lasguns are really cheap.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:15
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Khisanth Magus posted:This is actually something warmachine does that I think is a good idea. If you want to win by scoring objectives you have to have some warrior models(their version of troops), giant stompy robots and monsters can't do that part. Does this end up with more tough/durable trooper models being favored over other options? (also, as a warmachine 2e player during the time of banespam and gunlines, it's wild to hear about them making rules incentivizing troops!)
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Jun 1, 2020 05:16
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Clawtopsy posted:Ah. Are they like, mathed out to be the most cost-effective way, point for point, to get more Command Points for Knights? Technically, no. As of Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good, the points drop on Tempestuous Scions actually makes a couple of Company Commanders and three five man Scions squads 15 points cheaper. But almost no one got a chance to play them that way before everything shutdown, and now that minimum sized Battalions will no longer be worth a drat in 9th, as far as we can tell this far out, no one ever will.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:29
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jng2058 posted:No poo poo. That's the whole freakin' point. The original question was: "Which armies wouldn't take troops if they didn't have to?" 40k stats is missing anything before LVO, so I don't have the troop heavy mono-custodes list that did well earlier in the year, but you can take a look at this one (third place): https://www.40kstats.com/dicehead Outside of those mono lists, custodes aren't seeing a ton of use, tossing 3x shield captains into an existing list is mostly outclassed, but again they aren't taking a loyal 32 + tanks. I don't have a pure knights list because they mostly suck rear end - but they also aren't taking only a minimum of troops, they're grabbing things like tank commanders or skorpius dunecrawlers. https://www.40kstats.com/tworiversgt https://www.40kstats.com/overthetop https://www.40kstats.com/winterwarfare
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Jun 1, 2020 05:35
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Yeah, that's how I run my Knights too. Tank Commanders for the win. But I ALSO take a Loyal 32 mixed in, and so does everyone else, and we all do it only for the CP benefit. And yes, I count the 15 Scions and 15 Rangers as just a variation on the Loyal 32...because it serves the same purpose. It's what makes it a Battalion and gives the extra CP that you need for your Knights!
jng2058 fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 05:50
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jng2058 posted:Yeah, that's how I run my Knights too. Tank Commanders for the win. But I ALSO take a Loyal 32 mixed in, and so does everyone else, and we all do it only for the CP benefit. And yes, I count the 15 Scions and 15 Rangers as just a variation on the Loyal 32...because it serves the same purpose. It's what makes it a Battalion and gives the extra CP that you need for your Knights! When I was taking a loyal 32 pre-marine codex it was for a lot more than just the CP. Guard infantry are some of the most useful in the game.
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Jun 1, 2020 05:56
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Booley posted:When I was taking a loyal 32 pre-marine codex it was for a lot more than just the CP. Guard infantry are some of the most useful in the game. I mean, you can't really be saying "Knights don't need Troops in 8th edition" then show me three successful lists where people bring Knights and also a Battalion (and in one case two) with Troops in it to make your case, right?
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Jun 1, 2020 05:59
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jng2058 posted:I mean, you can't really be saying "Knights don't need Troops in 8th edition" then show me three successful lists where people bring Knights and also a Battalion (and in one case two) with Troops in it to make your case, right? I never said that. I said those armies aren't taking cheap troops purely for the CP.
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Jun 1, 2020 06:03
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