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Pilchenstein posted:You think people aren't going to just sell their Statue of Liberty and move? 
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May 31, 2020 15:47
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Wasabi the J posted:It's a bit revisionist to imply the average GI would not know there was a Holocaust by 1945. Yea this is what I meant (was C a bit drunk when I posted) The holocaust wasn't a secret, and it's weird that they play it like the US soldiers were every single one fully ignorant that it was going on.
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May 31, 2020 19:05
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Offhand & phone posting, but I think it was more of a case that not everyone actually believed it, or that it was occurring to such an extent, until they got to the camps. People knew bad stuff was happening to the Jews and others, but to what extent is something of a debate, and how much actually made it down to frontline troops is another matter. A lot of the things that actually happened in the camps had been reported in the WWI too (Babies into bonfires and whatnot), where it turned out to be false, and rumors of insane stuff were always going around. It’s not hard for soldiers to dismiss some of the rumors of the camps as exaggerated or false, until units actually found them. IIRC most accounts of units finding the camps, particularly from the Western Allied armies, pretty much had the same “  holy poo poo” reaction that they show in Band of Brothers.
fartknocker has a new favorite as of 19:40 on May 31, 2020 |
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May 31, 2020 19:33
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It's pretty easy to believe is you look at the present in an honest way. Like, not being an American I know the Trump government is putting children into cages near the border, but I wouldn't be able to give you any details about it. And that's in an era where information is traveling a LOT faster than it was during WWII.
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May 31, 2020 19:39
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I'm sure there were some soldiers who didn't know or believe it, but it's all of them, even the officers.
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May 31, 2020 19:39
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fartknocker posted:Offhand & phone posting, but I think it was more of a case that not everyone actually believed it, or that it was occurring to such an extent, until they got to the camps. Exactly. 12 million or 6 million the wall had been built around europe. Boots on the ground didn't know they didn't know at Nuremberg all the things.
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May 31, 2020 19:41
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Just going to say I liked Hunters I liked it, it's fictional but we should be reminded occasionally Schindler's List was a while ago And I didn't play the last two Wolfensteins
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May 31, 2020 19:43
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Carthag Tuek posted:I'm sure there were some soldiers who didn't know or believe it, but it's all of them, even the officers. Including generals like Eisenhower and Patton. Until they saw the camps too, they believed some of it had to be propaganda.
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May 31, 2020 19:45
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The first camps, the ones for political prisoners, opened in 1933 and weren't really a secret. But the only people being systematically massacred at that time were the disabled so no one cared. The Communists mostly lived through the war in camps though permanently physically and mentally damaged.
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May 31, 2020 19:52
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FreudianSlippers posted:The first camps, the ones for political prisoners, opened in 1933 and weren't really a secret. Very, very different thing from what was going in camps after 1941, Wannsee, and the general state of Germany in 1945.
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May 31, 2020 19:55
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Yeah. Everyone knew there were camps. That doesn't mean they could fathom of the "final solution" horrors going on at the camps.
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May 31, 2020 19:57
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World on Fire is probably the first thing you should watch After Fiddler on the Roof and An American Tale
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May 31, 2020 19:59
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fartknocker posted:Very, very different thing from what was going in camps after 1941, Wannsee, and the general state of Germany in 1945. Yeah there's a huge difference from the latter Holocaust and the earliest camps but most people probably assumed that Auschwitz was no different from the older political camps. But the T4 extermination of disabled people was openly in full swing in 1939 so people probably should've had some idea.
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May 31, 2020 20:14
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FreudianSlippers posted:Yeah there's a huge difference from the latter Holocaust and the earliest camps but most people probably assumed that Auschwitz was no different from the older political camps. I mean, Charlie Chaplin outright said as much. "Had I known of the actual horrors of the German concentration camps, I could not have made The Great Dictator, I could not have made fun of the homicidal insanity of the Nazis." The Great Dictator prominently features not-Germany's antisemitic laws, ghettos and camps.
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May 31, 2020 20:33
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Then they should have had a character express that sentiment imo
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May 31, 2020 21:00
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Carthag Tuek posted:Then they should have had a character express that sentiment imo With his time machine?
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May 31, 2020 21:03
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Pope Corky the IX posted:I was pointing out that the Statue of Liberty being submerged to represent how high the sea level has risen means it's 250 feet or less, compared to just about anything else they could have used in that area if they wanted it to seem more severe. Everyone sucks with scale in general. Maybe the Statue of Liberty sank into its island as well.
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Jun 1, 2020 10:59
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There were multiple kinds of camps (POW, labor, extermination). The Allies found the labor and POW camps first and those could be bad enough, so finding the extermination camps was going to shake most anyone. Liken it to the last 3 Republican Presidents. George H.W. Bush....not so bad, he's got good and bad qualities. George W., well this is not going into a good direction....holy loving poo poo Trump!!?!?!! The leap from labor camps (which could become death camps) to actual death camps was an order of magnitude worse.
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Jun 1, 2020 12:50
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Carthag Tuek posted:The holocaust wasn't a secret, and it's weird that they play it like the US soldiers were every single one fully ignorant that it was going on. have you met soldiers? seriously though an army at war is a terrible place to stay informed about world affairs - see the first episode of Generation Kill where half the force recon marines think J-lo is dead. And that's in an era with the internet, or even radio news! and of course as people keep saying, there's a difference between reading about something and seeing it.
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Jun 1, 2020 15:05
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thatbastardken posted:have you met soldiers? Much less world affairs but as we saw where Bill Guarnere didn't even know his brother had been killed, having found out because the wife of a fellow soldier mentioned it in a letter to her husband, they're not even up to date on highly personal news.
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Jun 1, 2020 15:15
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Sand Monster posted:Much less world affairs but as we saw where Bill Guarnere didn't even know his brother had been killed, having found out because the wife of a fellow soldier mentioned it in a letter to her husband, they're not even up to date on highly personal news. Or the Niland brothers, the inspiration for Saving Private Ryan. The one in the 101st wasn’t told about his brothers being reported KIA and pulled from combat for something like 3 or 4 weeks. IIRC, he first found out about two of them because he went to try and visit their units and found out they’d been killed weeks earlier on D-Day. It took a decent bit of time for the information to get to the War Department or whoever and issue his orders to go home (Compared to the movie showing it all happening by D+3 or whatever). And even then, the brother in the Pacific was actually alive and a POW, but it took till the summer of ‘45 for that news to get back. Again, it’s a much more personal, smaller level than the stuff like the extermination camps or the exact conditions of the concentration camps, but I think it helps show how much longer it took information to spread at the time. The examples from Generation Kill about J-Lo being killed (And I think there were others thrown around, but that’s easily the most memorable) show that sort of stuff in a more modern context.
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Jun 1, 2020 15:32
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Judging by reviews, I am the only person on the planet that really, really enjoyed Space Force, and that makes me sad because I thought it was brilliant. The second episode being pretty heavy on a CG chimp was...probably not the best choice, but overall the show is (in my opinion) tremendously funny and mildly optimistic while maintaining some serious cynicism so it doesn't devolve into a Parks & Rec love-in.
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Jun 1, 2020 16:37
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I’d have enjoyed it more if it picked a lane. Trying to cast an AOC figure as a clueless congresswoman was weirdly tone deaf in a show designed to make fun of the right. It was ok though.
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Jun 1, 2020 16:41
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Captain Monkey posted:I’d have enjoyed it more if it picked a lane. Trying to cast an AOC figure as a clueless congresswoman was weirdly tone deaf in a show designed to make fun of the right. I''m gonna guess they did pick a lane, and it's 'the far left and right are just as bad' centrism.
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Jun 1, 2020 16:43
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Which is always funny because when you reach for "far left" examples, by US standards, it's like four congresspeople, one Senator, zero governors, zero judges, zero major media outlets, a few celebrities, and a bunch of nobodies on Twitter. The "far right", on the other hand is almost every local TV news and radio station, the most watched cable news channel, the President of the United States, a majority of the supreme court, 50 senators, 48% of Congress, like 30 governors, almost every state legislature, etc etc. So yeah I don't want to hear any "both sides" poo poo while one side is bringing a potato gun to the fight while the other side has nukes.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:18
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Captain Monkey posted:I’d have enjoyed it more if it picked a lane. Trying to cast an AOC figure as a clueless congresswoman was weirdly tone deaf in a show designed to make fun of the right. Ghost Leviathan posted:I''m gonna guess they did pick a lane, and it's 'the far left and right are just as bad' centrism. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't see the AOC expy as clueless at all? She was literally addressing government overspending for her constituents, and doing a very good job of it. Meanwhile the right-wing guy is convinced that the Earth is a flat rectangle. Imagining that as some kind of "both sides" take is some mental gymnastics. e: I'm having actual trouble here reconciling her whole argument, "please explain why we are sending a $10,000 orange to space once a month" with your assertion that she's portrayed as "clueless" at all. What a weird take. Rockman Reserve has a new favorite as of 17:30 on Jun 1, 2020 |
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Jun 1, 2020 17:28
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food court bailiff posted:I can see where you're coming from, but I don't see the AOC expy as clueless at all? She was literally addressing government overspending for her constituents, and doing a very good job of it. Meanwhile the right-wing guy is convinced that the Earth is a flat rectangle. Imagining that as some kind of "both sides" take is some mental gymnastics. Probably the same logic weird nerds have defending Musk/SpaceX from legitimate criticisms.
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Jun 1, 2020 17:50
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‘What do you mean it’s expensive to launch things into space?!?!’ Is a clueless question. You also chose the single time she’s portrayed as anything more than a thorn in the side of the protagonist, and she is immediately silenced by thirty seconds of saccharine apologia for the guy 100% in charge of the militarization of space. I’ll admit it leans a little harder on the right, but only barely and with a hefty dose of bothsidesism.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:33
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That wasn’t at all the question that she asked, though, or even remotely how it was presented. Like, even a little bit. She was not confused that it was expensive to launch things into space, she was angry at what she saw as frivolous excess when she has a bunch of constituents on food stamps. I mean, it’s not even subtle, it’s straight-up the text of the scene. You’re wildly misinterpreting things to hammer it into what you think it’s saying.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:37
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I disagree, I guess. I’m sorry we interpreted it differently and that it was (perhaps irrationally?) irritating to me when I watched it.
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Jun 1, 2020 18:42
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I liked Space Force. Mrs. Doctor, daughter of a career Navy officer, completely lost her poo poo at a lot of the little touches. I wasn't crazy about the AYC character's depiction, and the orange scene was in my opinion a little overwrought and straw man-ish. I was able to enjoy a lot of the rest, however. Admiral Jane Lynch and General Patrick Warburton are worth the price of admission.
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Jun 1, 2020 23:00
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food court bailiff posted:That wasn’t at all the question that she asked, though, or even remotely how it was presented. Like, even a little bit. She was not confused that it was expensive to launch things into space, she was angry at what she saw as frivolous excess when she has a bunch of constituents on food stamps. the question is whether you're seeing it as being one of those 'why is the government wasting money on having geneticists do studies on FRUIT FLIES?! Big Government Waste!!' type things
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Jun 2, 2020 00:02
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Tunicate posted:the question is whether you're seeing it as being one of those 'why is the government wasting money on having geneticists do studies on FRUIT FLIES?! Big Government Waste!!' type things Except in the actual scene being discussed, again, the AOC expy is happy to hear about the scientific advancements being made that can actually help her constituents. The next item on the docket for that budgetary hearing is $8 million for ostrich leather seats for the Air Force. It is tremendously unsubtle and I really think some people went into it after hearing her name thinking it was going to be a scene just dunking on the real AOC, when it was nowhere near that. "A character does her job properly with due diligence" is kind of a weird thing to get hung up on a show over.
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Jun 2, 2020 00:09
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I get people can read things differently but anyone seeing it as making fun of that character or her real-life counterpart is absolutely incorrect. I'm not done the show yet but my IIM for it is that episode 2 sucks rear end and is considerably weaker than anything else in the first five or six. I get how expensive TV is to make but drat, I feel like they coulda looked at that episode and admitted it sucked and canned it if they felt they were unable to recut and bury it later in the season. I assume critics only watch the first two episodes before giving a verdict. Or the whole series could have been 5-minute shorts based on the chiefs of the military branches having meetings, because those scenes have been 10 times funnier than any other parts of the show.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:59
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I think Quibi killed that format off for a while
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Jun 2, 2020 04:13
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Krispy Wafer posted:There were multiple kinds of camps (POW, labor, extermination). The Allies found the labor and POW camps first and those could be bad enough, so finding the extermination camps was going to shake most anyone. Liken it to the last 3 Republican Presidents. George H.W. Bush....not so bad, he's got good and bad qualities. George W., well this is not going into a good direction....holy loving poo poo Trump!!?!?!! The leap from labor camps (which could become death camps) to actual death camps was an order of magnitude worse. POW camps weren't anything like the work camps or extermination camps. They were a well-known part of war, and run according to the Geneva conventions, inspected by the Red Cross, and given parcels from home. Yes, terrible things happened, eg massacring the Great Escapees, and I wouldn't want to be a Jewish POW. But it's a bit odd to compare them.
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Jun 2, 2020 07:09
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Captain Monkey posted:I’d have enjoyed it more if it picked a lane. Trying to cast an AOC figure as a clueless congresswoman was weirdly tone deaf in a show designed to make fun of the right. I've only seen the first episode, but the ending left a real bad taste in my mouth. Just lazy anti-science bullshit - can't trust the experts, they're too cautious, real progress involves straping in and taking risks! hard choices! Feelings don't care about your facts! o-rah! And those eeeeevil reds are out to ruin America. Both of them!
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Jun 2, 2020 11:26
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Safety Biscuits posted:POW camps weren't anything like the work camps or extermination camps. They were a well-known part of war, and run according to the Geneva conventions, inspected by the Red Cross, and given parcels from home. Yes, terrible things happened, eg massacring the Great Escapees, and I wouldn't want to be a Jewish POW. But it's a bit odd to compare them. I'm just saying Allied forces were liberating various types of camps. The death camps were deeper in the interior so those were found last and were predictably the most shocking. Labor camps were pretty terrible. Then you find a death camp and your whole meaning of terrible changes. Any rumors that the soldiers might have heard would be more along the lines of a labor camp. There wasn't really a frame of reference for most people to comprehend concentration camps. Even if an American paratrooper knew about the Boer War and early concentration camps (unlikely) it still wouldn't prepare them for what they found in Germany.
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Jun 2, 2020 13:28
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I loving love Letterkenny but they just lost me on the defense of canada geese. None of them live in Canada anyways. Barrel chested and what? They are monsters. And then sold me on the idea that canada gooses are real birds with real plans to reproduce and not suffer goose egg addling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goose_egg_addling
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Jun 2, 2020 19:18
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Why don't we eat geese anymore?
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Jun 2, 2020 20:30
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