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Martial has a huge effect on tactic selection. Each specific tactic has different multipliers, but basically a commander with 16+ martial will be several times more likely to choose a tactic appropriate to your unit composition than one with only 8. https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Combat_tactics
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Jun 1, 2020 23:23
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Battles in CK2 happen so fast that it's hard to appreciate the arcane tactics system.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:29
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It's one of the reasons I'm glad the CK3 system seems simplier. In practice, the CK2 system boils down to 'put high martial commanders in charge of flanks, don't attack across water, don't attack into mountains, outnumber your opponents, light infantry sucks'. There's a million asterisks and special cases for all of those things, but none of them really matter.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:42
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Basically there's very little the player can do to affect it. You put some good commanders in, or don't, and then it's just a bunch of opaque dice rolls going by really fast.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:49
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Various Meat Products posted:Honestly there's no reason not to have good commanders at pretty much all times. You can always go in the character finder and find someone to bribe to join your court. I have definitely been in situations where I was so disliked and downright unlikeable that bribes would not bring any competent commander's opinion up to buy-a-favor territory.
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Jun 2, 2020 03:06
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How do I choose who is on the flanks?
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Jun 2, 2020 09:34
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Jose posted:How do I choose who is on the flanks?
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Jun 2, 2020 09:45
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Various Meat Products posted:Martial has a huge effect on tactic selection. Each specific tactic has different multipliers, but basically a commander with 16+ martial will be several times more likely to choose a tactic appropriate to your unit composition than one with only 8. My god, some of those tactics requirements are insane. Elk's Lament: Melee Archers 5% Leader has Call to Glory power Leader is a member of the Followers of Otso Suomenusko.png No enemy leader is considered an honorable combatant by the leader or the leader's liege NOT in desert Gives +250% archer offensive, +150% light infantry defense. And you don't have the list of the tactics anywhere in the game. And even if you fulfill all the prerequisites you only have some chance of it firing. And it's only marginally better than the usual Barrage Tactic that gives archers and horse archers +240% offensive which can fire if you just have archers. No wonder no one bothers understanding this system.
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Jun 2, 2020 09:55
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I put a lot of effort into understanding the tactics system and it can make a real difference if you fully drink it in and stop to think about your generals, but the reality of the situation is that it’s such a distant last as to the things you should care about that I honestly don’t feel it was worth my effort to understand. Like what you should focus on for war in CK2: - number of dudes - martial score of commander - specialties of commander - grand strategic plan (e.g.: assault enemy bases, defend against deathball, etc) - terrain of conflict zone (rivers, hills vs plains) - army maneuver (baiting enemy, multiple fronts, assaulting holdings for hostages) - tactical constellations I appreciate that all this stuff exists because it does give you play options if you are outnumbered and crap. You can in fact have a heroic holdout and a come from behind win. When the game launched it was pretty much formulaic. Have 20% more dudes? You win. Have kinda equal sides? Better martial score wins. Have equal martial score? Better terrain and bonuses win. It basically meant there was no surprises in wars ever and no analysis or response that had to happen, ever. With the current situation there can be surprises. But man that doesn’t make tactical constellations any less dumb.
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Jun 2, 2020 10:09
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So i actually went and looked at my commanders and the first one both had 7 martial and was craven lol Should I always merge my army into a single unit then for organising flankers and stuff?
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Jun 2, 2020 10:48
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Coolguye posted:I put a lot of effort into understanding the tactics system and it can make a real difference if you fully drink it in and stop to think about your generals, but the reality of the situation is that it’s such a distant last as to the things you should care about that I honestly don’t feel it was worth my effort to understand.
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Jun 2, 2020 11:29
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There are siege events but not combat events. And siege events are rather generic and random. It would be nice to have events telling you that your genius brave commander had done something great during the battle in the background.
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Jun 2, 2020 11:38
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To add the aforementioned issues with the tactics system, does the AI try to engage with it at all? From what I remember the only way to affect troop composition was either retinues or the really long term project of demense improvement, and aside from the Nomad invasions stacking horse archers I can't remember the AI pursuing any coherent strategy on that front. It means the whole tactics system is just an incredibly complicated way for a player to stack advantages against the AI in a game where the human player will already be doing a much better job at managing a war by default.
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Jun 2, 2020 11:52
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Iirc, the AI only really pursues one of two “strategies”: whatever it has (event troops or uprisings) or a bit of everything available (levies), where the latter depends on what improvements they have in their holdings, which in turn is pretty random. It's reasonably good at reacting to and taking advantage of terrain — you have to bait it a fair bit to attacking you on mountains for instance — and to ensure it has semi-competent commanders, but that's about it.
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Jun 2, 2020 12:04
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ilitarist posted:My god, some of those tactics requirements are insane. Elk's Lament: it looks like classic designer fun. the designers probably had a ball thinking up and implementing niche tactics like that, but the reality is that literally nobody would have noticed it existed without looking in the game files.
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Jun 2, 2020 12:10
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Actually, that one in particular is mentioned in a tooltip. It's the one you get for being in the Soumenusko warrior lodge. Most of them are fairly obscure, though. In general the only real way for tactics to have a huge impact is if you are using armies with only a few unit types, that is to say retinue or nomad stacks. In these situations they can be really important. Some cultures also have a cultural tactic (often shared with others - French and German share Couched Lance Charge, for example). You can mostly guess what they do based on the bonuses given by that culture's unique building or retinue. NeverHelm fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 12:22
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It's probably not explained in full, as in what are the benefits and that it doesn't work in deserts or against friends of your liege. And how it compares to other tactics. This approach where you can guess good army compositions for specific cultures and characters would work fine in a turn-based game that doesn't have so many systems. But this reminds me of space 4X ship construction. You can spend an hour optimizing your ships for future combat... Or you can spend couple of minutes on tweaking some empire sliders to double your ship production. Apparently spaceship engineering is much more complex than interstellar economy and our space emperor wants to have a lot of influence over military designs. Or they ignore that part of the game cause it's usually of little consequence. Plus it's a game where I know that this specific guy will bring 2% more taxes as a steward, it's strange that war mechanics decide to be so secretive and obscure.
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Jun 2, 2020 12:50
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Coolguye posted:I appreciate that all this stuff exists because it does give you play options if you are outnumbered and crap. You can in fact have a heroic holdout and a come from behind win. When the game launched it was pretty much formulaic. Have 20% more dudes? You win. Have kinda equal sides? Better martial score wins. Have equal martial score? Better terrain and bonuses win. It basically meant there was no surprises in wars ever and no analysis or response that had to happen, ever. With the current situation there can be surprises. This is more or less where I land with it. I'm actually a sucker for Designer Fun stuff like this or Victoria's economy system, but I treat it more as a way to add variation to wars and battles or make certain characters command in different ways than something I have to (or even want to) optimise.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:10
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I was kind of annoyed that putting my liege in charge of troops would always make them end up traumatized or depressed no matter their martial score, and then I realized it might also have to do with my effort to groom every one of them into being a kind, gentle bookworm.
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Jun 2, 2020 14:17
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I try to groom everyone to have high intrigue because that I can just murder vassals who become too threatening
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Jun 2, 2020 15:59
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Jose posted:So i actually went and looked at my commanders and the first one both had 7 martial and was craven lol yes, almost always. making a deathball is very important. attacking the enemy before he can form a deathball is very important. having an army large enough to have flanks is pretty important - at least, you don't want to have your deathball getting outflanked by a larger deathball really you should be considering the few times that a deathball is NOT the best move, like -seiging multiple holdings at once if you aren't at risk of getting hit by a deathball when your forces are split -baiting the enemy to attack you on favorable terrain (gosh, it would be a shame if your 10k stack pounced on these 2k guys across a river while my other 12k guys are over here totally not paying attention) -getting your forces under an attrition limit so that you don't lose half your army to winter/starvation -boats Jose posted:I try to groom everyone to have high intrigue because that I can just murder vassals who become too threatening this is not an optimal way to play, but it is a very interesting way to play, which is equally important having all your dynasts be high intrigue just means they'll be murdering each other and you, all of the time. very darwinist
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Jun 2, 2020 16:39
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ilitarist posted:My god, some of those tactics requirements are insane. Elk's Lament: And it has a very high base weight at 15 (normal tactics have starting weights of ~3) that's easily boosted to 30 or more meaning it fires quite consistently on an army lead by a leader capable of using it. The special warrior lodges all share this trait of high weight with easy modifiers, which actually makes them very easy to fire even with mixed unit armies, exactly the opposite of the normal set of tactics which you have to carefully construct retinue compositions to engage with. lurksion fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 17:22
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Coolguye posted:- number of dudes - specialties of commander - martial score of commander JustaDamnFool posted:the whole tactics system is just an incredibly complicated way for a player to stack advantages against the AI lurksion fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jun 2, 2020 |
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Jun 2, 2020 17:30
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https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/ckiii-dev-diary-29-even-the-smallest-decision.1395308/ Dev diary on decisions
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Jun 2, 2020 17:39
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That first image has some powerful 2020: my expectations versus reality energy
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Jun 2, 2020 18:31
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lurksion posted:IMO traits are more important than score. JustaDamnFool posted:To add the aforementioned issues with the tactics system, does the AI try to engage with it at all? From what I remember the only way to affect troop composition was either retinues or the really long term project of demense improvement, and aside from the Nomad invasions stacking horse archers I can't remember the AI pursuing any coherent strategy on that front.
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Jun 2, 2020 20:34
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A thought occurred to me about CK3: Are they actually going to depict the schism as happening in-game now, or will it just exist from the beginning like in CK2? The more flexible religious system does seem like it would allow it to work. It was a bit weird that you had Catholic and Orthodox in the days of Charlemagne in CK2.
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Jun 2, 2020 21:04
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luxury handset posted:this is not an optimal way to play, but it is a very interesting way to play, which is equally important What is the optimal way to play? Outside of the whole "unsuited for war" thing, my gentle, gregarious line managed to completely avoid vassal rebellions once I figured out I could just revoke titles from catholics without consequences. Possibly helped by all my daughters being babes so whenever I had a female ruler, the opinion penalty would be offset by all my male vassals being horny for her. With one rather major exception, where I had two rulers die in quick succession, leaving the throne to a syphillitic lunatic I hadn't had the time to notice was there.
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Jun 2, 2020 21:25
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Typically martial when you are small, as you rely directly on your own troops, and then as you get bigger diplomacy to better manage your vassals. Happy vassals give you more troops after all.
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Jun 2, 2020 21:41
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JustaDamnFool posted:That first image has some powerful 2020: my expectations versus reality energy I think that image alone would have sold me on the 3D portraits if I wasn't already sold. You can tell it's the same person, but you can also tell they have seen some poo poo.
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Jun 2, 2020 22:40
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Eimi posted:Typically martial when you are small, as you rely directly on your own troops, and then as you get bigger diplomacy to better manage your vassals. Happy vassals give you more troops after all. Martial if you're below you're demesne limit, stewardship once you begin to bump up against it, and then diplomacy once you're big enough to have a bunch of vassals.
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Jun 2, 2020 22:50
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That dev diary is hella cool. I thought I couldn't be more excited for this game!
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Jun 3, 2020 00:04
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:What is the optimal way to play? it's cool to have a high intrigue ruler, but in order to get one you have to have a high intrigue heir, which can be dicey for your current ruler's health intrigue and scholarship aren't really great to have as a ruler. but again in this game interesting is as important as optimal, so having a booklord ruler is fun for a change of pace
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Jun 3, 2020 03:20
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High learning rulers are the best because you get the Necronomicon or get to yell at the pope. Either way.
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Jun 3, 2020 03:34
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I really like the theology focus when I have nothing urgent going on. You get health, loads of piety, and stressed and drunkard trait removal. The last one is only notable because I get the fallen down event all the time who thought this was a good idea.
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Jun 3, 2020 04:15
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I finished SPQR tonight and holy mackerel what a grind that was. At one point I wound up with the Alexander bloodline and lost it like 30 minutes later because it didn’t transfer to my grandson heir, so I worked my way across all of Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
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Jun 3, 2020 05:53
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McGavin posted:Martial if you're below you're demesne limit, stewardship once you begin to bump up against it, and then diplomacy once you're big enough to have a bunch of vassals. This is my usual plan, unless I'm playing a pagan in which case it's all martial all the time.
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Jun 3, 2020 07:08
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Really enjoying the Pagan Fury music pack. What are some other bands with an appropriate medieval-rock vibe?
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Jun 3, 2020 08:39
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lurksion posted:https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/ckiii-dev-diary-29-even-the-smallest-decision.1395308/ This is the first area where I feel like there's not much improvement over CK2. Separating out the major decisions is good, but it still feels a bit like a jumbled list of random things you can do. I'm not sure how it could be better but maybe they could be categorised a bit more or split off into different bits of the UI...
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Jun 3, 2020 09:58
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fuf posted:This is the first area where I feel like there's not much improvement over CK2. Separating out the major decisions is good, but it still feels a bit like a jumbled list of random things you can do. In terms of the improvements to role playing that the DD mentions, in CK2 you can already only go on pilgrimage as a Catholic if you choose the theology focus or chase the white stag if you choose the hunting focus. It’s just consolidated the menus - which is not a bad thing at all, just not the most exciting thing. The 3D models look great though especially with the ageing.
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Jun 3, 2020 11:41
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