|
Whorelord posted:Hey, some of the best Italian food I've ever had has been here in England 
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:25 |
|
|
catfry posted:Never before heard that Britain and Germany have better food than Spain and Italy. They do
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 17:34
|
|
|
You'd think there'd be more Turks in Armenia, what with them being so close and all!  The one that actually confuses me is Portugal. Is it just that the economy sucks that much worse than Spain?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:13
|
|
|
...would
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
Portugal is several times smaller than Spain, and there is no particular reason for Turks to want to go there. The Portuguese themselves have a history of emigrating to other countries as guest workers. There's a large population of Portuguese people in Luxembourg, for example.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
Albino Squirrel posted:You'd think there'd be more Turks in Armenia, what with them being so close and all!
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:28
|
|
|
catfry posted:Never before heard that Britain and Germany have better food than Spain and Italy. Theres a restaurant in Louisville run by a German immigrant family that only has 4 tables and only does two seatings a day because they really just do it as a hobby and the Stroganoff and Spackle there is maybe the best meal I've had in this city.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:31
|
|
|
Where exactly are the "Turks in Europe" in Iran, et al?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:46
|
|
|
HisMajestyBOB posted:Where exactly are the "Turks in Europe" in Iran, et al? I think the map considers any type of Turkic people to be a turk rather than just those from turkey specifically. Azeris are turkic and are the biggest minority group in Iran with 16% of the population so probably them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:56
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:I think the map considers any type of Turkic people to be a turk rather than just those from turkey specifically. Uhh no? Albino Squirrel posted:You'd think there'd be more Turks in Armenia, what with them being so close and all! This was mostly the political content I posted it for
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 18:58
|
|
|
Potential for fraud in counting votes, sort of
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 19:40
|
|
|
Vivian Darkbloom posted:Potential for fraud in counting votes, sort of I legitimately don't understand why Americans use voting machines. I have voted in many elections in Canada always with paper ballets and it has always worked. It cannot be hacked. It can be easily checked. I have also been a scrutineer and worked for a major political party observing the counting of ballets. That was fine. It was also relatively quick to count the votes. Clearly, nobody started out using voting machines, they were I guess introduced at some point. Can anyone explain why voting machines exist? It seems like it's asking for trouble. Do other major democracies use machines?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 19:48
|
|
|
Tons of countries use voting machines, often a combination of that and paper ballots. It's certainly much faster and more efficient than physical ballots as long as you have decent software and procedures. If there are problems, it's usually logistical or due to the incompetence of the people involved in the process.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 19:56
|
|
|
Gleri posted:I legitimately don't understand why Americans use voting machines. I have voted in many elections in Canada always with paper ballets and it has always worked. It cannot be hacked. It can be easily checked. I have also been a scrutineer and worked for a major political party observing the counting of ballets. That was fine. It was also relatively quick to count the votes. My understanding (gained only recently) was that it was a response to the ambiguous paper ballots from the 2000 Presidential election, and the recount of votes in Florida. Rather than switch to easier to determine paper ballots, a lot of places switched away from paper ballots entirely.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
Gleri posted:I legitimately don't understand why Americans use voting machines. There are many advantages to using voting machines: you can de-anonymize the votes so you know who to punish after the elections, and you can change how the counting is done so as to be sure the right candidate wins.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:05
|
|
|
BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:I think the map considers any type of Turkic people to be a turk rather than just those from turkey specifically. France is in Europe: Of Course Turkey is in Europe: A bit controversial, I guess. Armenia is in Europe: Now we're getting somewhere Tunesia is in Europe: Well historically the Mediterranean... Iran is in Europe: ???
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:13
|
|
|
I don't mean to single out Americans, I've just only heard of electronic voting in the context of American elections. Also, I guess I'm a Luddite, but I just don't trust computers or machines for something as important as counting votes. It seems very strange to move from a system that can't be hacked, and that's easily externally verifiable, to one that can be hacked and that isn't externally verifiable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:14
|
|
|
We were using voting machines way before that point though. Florida's ambiguous paper votes were the result of a machine that punched holes that didn't work quite right. I remember as a kid, my parents were using something with levers. I think the advantages are:
Yeah I don't really get it either. Every year there's a bunch of stories about how incredibly easy it would be to mess with the voting machines, nothing gets done, they already used a lovely untested phone app for one of the primaries in this election cycle that at best heavily malfunctioned and was used improperly by the untrained officials, and at worst was directly sabotaged. Gleri posted:I don't mean to single out Americans, I've just only heard of electronic voting in the context of American elections. Also, I guess I'm a Luddite, but I just don't trust computers or machines for something as important as counting votes. It seems very strange to move from a system that can't be hacked, and that's easily externally verifiable, to one that can be hacked and that isn't externally verifiable. The people who trust computers the most are the ones who don't know how they work and how easily you can screw with them. You constantly see computer experts speaking out against it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:21
|
|
|
Gleri posted:I don't mean to single out Americans, I've just only heard of electronic voting in the context of American elections. Also, I guess I'm a Luddite, but I just don't trust computers or machines for something as important as counting votes. It seems very strange to move from a system that can't be hacked, and that's easily externally verifiable, to one that can be hacked and that isn't externally verifiable. Old people run everything in America and they were very familiar with poo poo like stuffing ballot boxes, false bottoms, and votes in dead mens names but had absolutely no idea how hacking worked because they were old.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:They do Well that's an incredibly stupid thing to say.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 20:50
|
|
|
Gleri posted:I don't mean to single out Americans, I've just only heard of electronic voting in the context of American elections. Also, I guess I'm a Luddite, but I just don't trust computers or machines for something as important as counting votes. It seems very strange to move from a system that can't be hacked, and that's easily externally verifiable, to one that can be hacked and that isn't externally verifiable. My local area, at least, is using a good design for a voting machine. You make your selections on a touchscreen, but at the end, it actually prints out a paper "receipt" of all your various votes, on a big roll of paper, which you can inspect through a little window. The machine tells you to look the paper over and then hit either Approve, which will scroll it away into the "ballot box", or Reject, which presumably will scratch out the ballot and let you start over, or something like that. (I've never had to hit Reject.) In case of any kind of dispute or recount, the paper is what counts as your actual ballot. It can be read either by a different machine (since it's all standardized and very easy to scan and OCR) or manually by a human (since it's just words on paper). But for the 99%+ of elections where that isn't necessary, you get the nice immediate electronic counts, available to put on the news the very moment the polls close. With this design, it's still possible that the machine could match identities with votes. But that risk is mitigated (here, anyway) by keeping your name on paper only. When you first walk in, go up to the table with the election judges, and give them your name, they just tear your stub out of their great big paper book of eligible voters, and then give you a smart card that you take over to activate a voting machine. The card never knows who you are, so neither does the voting machine.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 21:07
|
|
|
Gleri posted:I legitimately don't understand why Americans use voting machines. because its easier to rig the vote that way
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
The thing I still don't understand is why Americans are voting on so much poo poo at once, and hence have these huge ballots to deal with. I know America has a fetish for electing judges and coroners and poo poo, but it also seems like you're trying to have every election at once, rather than just having local and state elections on some other day? Is there some constitutional requirement to do this? Like when I go to vote for my municipal council, I get one ballot for mayor, one ballot for councilor, and one ballot for school trustee; each ballot is a small piece of paper (smartphone size when unfolded), I use a pencil to put an X on each ballot, and hand it in. It's easy for voters, and having done counts, it's real easy to count. Presumably during a Federal election it'd be the same story; one for President, one for Congressperson, and a third for Senator if its an election year in your district? Piece of cake. Voting machine with paper receipt for recounts and audits sound good, but I just don't understand the desire to add machines into the process (ignoring the malicious "I want to be able to attack the electoral system" motive I guess). PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jun 4, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 21:37
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
PittTheElder posted:The thing I still don't understand is why Americans are voting on so much poo poo at once, and hence have these huge ballots to deal with. I know America has a fetish for electing judges and coroners and poo poo, but it also seems like you're trying to have every election at once, rather than just having local and state elections on some other day? Is there some constitutional requirement to do this? Only elections for President have to cobstituionally be held on the first Tuesday in November otherwise its left up to the states. Maine used to have all its non-presidential elections in September and the party that won the governors race usually ended up winning the presidency so parties spent an unusually large amount of money trying to win the Maine Governorship in an example of Goodhart's law. A lot of states do hold elections off-year still but Americans really only care about voting for President so if its not during a presidential election year turn-outs a lot lower. Low turnout usually favors republicans because their base is smaller but more consistent in voting so guess which states usually hold elections off-year?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
Running them all together makes sense from an administrative standpoint. Doubling the number of election days pretty much doubles the costs for temporary resources like staffing and polling venues, and even the retained resources are going to have significant costs to mobilise. Managing one election is much easier than managing two, so you'd have to have a pretty solid reason not to. I can also see the appeal of voting machines, even for people who don't want to exploit them. For decades, we've had ATMs that can verify my identity based on the card I put in, accept my choices from a list on the screen, count the notes out, and then make the relevant change to my account, and that process is cheaper, easier and more reliable than getting humans to do it. It's not much of a leap from that to suggest that voting machines could verify your identity, accept your choice, count the votes correctly then make the relevant change to voting totals, and do that much better than people could. It's an attractive offer. Obviously we know that's not how it works in hindsight, but at first it probably sounded like a great idea, and it still does to anyone who isn't paying much attention.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 22:48
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:Tons of countries use voting machines, often a combination of that and paper ballots. It's certainly much faster and more efficient than physical ballots as long as you have decent software and procedures. Except: 
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 23:17
|
|
|
Peaceful Anarchy posted:I think the "in Europe" is the loaded part. At least Farsi and Armenian are Indo-European languages. Turkish and Arabic aren't. I suppose French is a Romance-Germanic Creole of sorts. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Only elections for President have to cobstituionally be held "I am not owned! I am not owned!" I repeat as I slowly turn into a cobstitution
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 23:24
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Voting machine with paper receipt for recounts and audits sound good, but I just don't understand the desire to add machines into the process (ignoring the malicious "I want to be able to attack the electoral system" motive I guess). I don't understand why people don't understand this. It's exactly the same reason that people have been replacing manual labor with machines since the Industrial Revolution started: if all goes well, it's much more efficient in terms of time and energy. During the 2018 municipal elections in Belgium I was 'drafted' to help run a local voting precinct that used machines (other parts of the country still use paper ballots). When the voting had ended, all we had to do was bring the encrypted data and a bag with the corresponding bar-coded ballots + a number of administrative documents to a central location. That was it. No manual counting involved. In case of problems or anomalies, you can simply compare the results to the ballots the way you would with non-digital voting. The reality with electronic voting is that you will occasionally run into specific technological or logistical problems (usually due to unforeseen human error), but I never had any difficulty understanding why policy makers introduced it. The debate about whether or not it is easier to manipulate than paper ballots seems almost entirely moot to me. If there are groups, or a group, in a country that are both willing to and capable of committing large-scale electoral fraud without the fallout/backlash potentially destroying them, then the fundamental problem is with the institutions and democratic culture of that country. In such a scenario, the level of technology that is used during elections is almost irrelevant. You think Putin would suddenly stop winning elections if Russia switched away from whichever system it's using right now?
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 23:27
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:Especially if you're using more complicated ranked choice style voting systems. You don't need calculating machines if it's something simple but bad like first past the post. It’s always Britain. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 23:32
|
|
|
And Laos for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2020 23:34
|
|
|
Bro Dad posted:tag yourself PSL will probably be too busy tweeting and Red Guards too busy pinning pig heads to the DSA headquarters to take over Austin.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 00:58
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:The thing I still don't understand is why Americans are voting on so much poo poo at once, and hence have these huge ballots to deal with. I know America has a fetish for electing judges and coroners and poo poo, but it also seems like you're trying to have every election at once, rather than just having local and state elections on some other day? Is there some constitutional requirement to do this? I don't know that it is really true that we are voting for everything at once, but federal elections every two years make it a good time particularly for the state elections to also happen, but there are plenty of exceptions. The party primaries for state offices also usually happen at the same time as the federal ones, but plenty of states split them to try and lower turnout for state races to influence the elections. It is also pretty common also for municipal, county, school board or bond elections to NOT occur at the same time. There is usually some sort of election happening around every 6 months or so.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 02:08
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:There are many advantages to using voting machines: you can de-anonymize the votes so you know who to punish after the elections, and you can change how the counting is done so as to be sure the right candidate wins. This is the real answer
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 03:35
|
|
|
Peaceful Anarchy posted:Armenia is in Europe: Now we're getting somewhere All the Armenians I met when I lived in Florida insisted that Armenia is a European country. Probably the best way to irritate people like that is to ask them what the native name of Armenia is.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 12:53
|
|
|
Armenians are officially members of the Asian race.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 13:05
|
|
|
It's as if the distinction between "Europe" and "Asia" was more a cultural/historical one than a geographical one...
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 13:50
|
|
|
DuckHuntDog posted:I don't know that it is really true that we are voting for everything at once, but federal elections every two years make it a good time particularly for the state elections to also happen, but there are plenty of exceptions. The party primaries for state offices also usually happen at the same time as the federal ones, but plenty of states split them to try and lower turnout for state races to influence the elections. It is also pretty common also for municipal, county, school board or bond elections to NOT occur at the same time. There is usually some sort of election happening around every 6 months or so. There are fuckloads of elections in the US outside of the big ones every 2/4 years. The reason that people in other countries don't hear about them, even considering the american dominance of the anglo-internet The reason that no one outside of the jurisdiction the election covers, and even many people within the jurisdiction, never hear about them Is that no one loving cares Even in cases where we probably should care, like electing a coroner that isn't a murder-erasing good ol' boy. Who cares? Who on earth cares about the coroner election for Dipshit County, TX, until the next lynching or gay bashing gets swept under the rug?
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 15:05
|
|
|
Zedhe Khoja posted:All the Armenians I met when I lived in Florida insisted that Armenia is a European country. Probably the best way to irritate people like that is to ask them what the native name of Armenia is. What is the native name of Armenia?
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 15:11
|
|
|
Phlegmish posted:What is the native name of Armenia? Hayastan.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 15:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 07:25 |
|
|
But what's Asian about that?
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2020 15:15
|
|