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McCloud posted:I just finished ep 18 s5 of my b5 rewatch, and Londo's fate really bums me out. Despite it all, despite what he did, and despite him being the author of his own fate, he deserved better. And the idea that all his friends would think he turned on them again while he is all alone and desperate to protect them is just terrible beyond words. He was an absolute literal war criminal who murdered millions for reasons of pride and arrogance, even if he (eventually) felt kind of bad about it and (eventually) made some amends. I mean I get you, but, still.
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Jun 5, 2020 02:43
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sebmojo posted:He was an absolute literal war criminal who murdered millions for reasons of pride and arrogance, even if he (eventually) felt kind of bad about it and (eventually) made some amends. I mean I get you, but, still. Yeah. Pretty much this. I mean the series definitely gives you an insight that can make him sympathetic, but all those points still stand. Londo is a monster.
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Jun 5, 2020 02:47
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sebmojo posted:He was an absolute literal war criminal who murdered millions for reasons of pride and arrogance, even if he (eventually) felt kind of bad about it and (eventually) made some amends. I mean I get you, but, still. I think the thing that gets people about Londo's tragedy is he just kinda fell into it. He started by ranting at Mister Morden about what he wants, not believing anything would come of it. He was just popping off at a stranger that was bugging him. And his wants weren't evil at the start. He didn't say "oh I want to genocide people." But then, well, everything happened. I don't think people are really saying Londo Did Nothing Wrong. It's more about how his falling is also a tragedy, one that resulted in a much larger one.
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Jun 5, 2020 02:50
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CainFortea posted:I think the thing that gets people about Londo's tragedy is he just kinda fell into it. He started by ranting at Mister Morden about what he wants, not believing anything would come of it. He was just popping off at a stranger that was bugging him. And his wants weren't evil at the start. He didn't say "oh I want to genocide people." yeah, and the wider point is it's always like that. monsters are people who things happen to and who make decisions as a result of who they are, just like saints are, and do. the twinned arcs of londo and gkar are a narrative triumph.
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Jun 5, 2020 02:54
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When trying to find the "electric bleachers" quote from B5 it dug up an old GBS thread from 2016 with some great bits https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3788591&pagenumber=4 wrt to a blooper reel where Boxleitner calls himself Sinclair by accident quote:There's a story about that last clip where Boxleitner calls himself Sinclair: It was getting late on the last day of filming and they didn't want to go past midnight because they'd have to start paying overtime; two "suits" from the network had shown up, ready to stop filming at the stroke of twelve. Director John C. Flinn wanted to do a good job because it was the first time he'd directed an episode, but with just minutes left they still hadn't finished. For the end of the scene to look good it needed multiple takes from different angles, but they only had time to do one take. So they started filming and Boxleitner called himself Sinclair. Everyone laughed, even the suits, and that's Flinn pretending to strangle him. They had to film past midnight but the mood was lightened and Flinn had time to film it the way he wanted. Peter David, who wrote the episode and was an extra in that scene, wondered if Boxleitner had deliberately flubbed his line because he knew Flinn needed more time. As a first-time director, he'd look bad if he went over, so Boxleitner made it his own fault. People have probably asked Boxleitner about that at conventions but I don't know if he's confirmed or denied it (or if he even remembers). And about the cast in general quote:That's a really good insight. The casting is superb, even if they're not the best actors, because they give it their all and they're bringing a lot of heart to the performances. and my favorite quote:Not quite, he had a file of index cards with episode breakdowns, but had to leave a lot of room for the expected unexpected production changes. For example, each character had an "out" in case the actor left, etc., like Talia being a deep-cover PsiCorps plant. And of course you always improvise some and take cues as the actors develop their characters. JMS wrote a eulogy for Jerry Doyle and included this gem: pentyne fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 03:11
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What's this other Babylon 5 thread that got mentioned earlier? And why has no one dumped all the JMS Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5 usenet posts to the Internet Archive yet? (if they did, I suck at searching archive dot org)
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Jun 5, 2020 03:16
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quantumfoam posted:What's this other Babylon 5 thread that got mentioned earlier? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3925635 unspoiled noob thread
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Jun 5, 2020 03:22
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sebmojo posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3925635 Post carefully or you will be yelled at by everyone. sebmojo posted:yeah, and the wider point is it's always like that. monsters are people who things happen to and who make decisions as a result of who they are, just like saints are, and do. the twinned arcs of londo and gkar are a narrative triumph. That's more my point. The thing that kicked all this off wasn't really a decision based on who he is. He didn't really think Morden was going to do anything, so his rant didn't matter. But lets say there was some other power who wanted to give someone what they wanted but they weren't interested in causing a huge fuckoff war. They could have given Londo everything he asked for without any war or any of the bullshit that happened. There's no rational way he could have known that giving his speech to Morden would actually DO anything. Everything after the first one is the normal path to villainy that so many others travel. But it's that first step that is different, in my mind, and why I think he counts as a tragedy instead of just a sympathetic character.
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Jun 5, 2020 03:50
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That's a good insight. Though he gets plenty of opportunities to get off the atrocity train. But yeah, his flaws are very small and human, which makes the toweringly epic nature of his fate seem so much more tragic.
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Jun 5, 2020 03:57
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CainFortea posted:Post carefully or you will be yelled at by everyone. He has several points where he could choose differently, most importantly at least one where Vir hears about it and explicitly tells him he can't go back from it, and he does it. He's no shrinking violet.
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Jun 5, 2020 04:00
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I'm specifically talking about his first talk with Morden. That's the key to me thinking he's a tragedy. Yes, everything after that is the normal route of "maybe just a little show of force" -> "okay well now we need more force" -> "a little genocide, as a treat" -> "oh gods i'm a monster what have I done". But that first step being an actual accident is what does it for me.
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Jun 5, 2020 04:09
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Is it though? Morden got londo at a bad time, but he still basically gave him the imperialist version of the conan what is best in life speech, and that didn't come from nowhere. You are who you are on the best day of your life, and the worst, and morden elicited the latter. This is interesting, it's making me ponder.
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Jun 5, 2020 05:03
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CainFortea posted:I'm specifically talking about his first talk with Morden. That's the key to me thinking he's a tragedy. Yes, everything after that is the normal route of "maybe just a little show of force" -> "okay well now we need more force" -> "a little genocide, as a treat" -> "oh gods i'm a monster what have I done". He's a washed up nobody who dreams of the glory days of Empire and even if accidentally given a taste sees nothing wrong with his rise in status as the bodies pile up. To him, the non-centurai aren't worth the same and even asking for a day when they had power back is like the people now bemoaning how great it was in the 50s when people knew their place and wholesome values reigned. It's a extremely prejudiced and dangerous view. He watches with horror as a massive homeworld is bombed war crime style and does nothing to effect the settlement or laws passed to punish the Narns. Laws that are loving vile given he openly states that Narn is being "civilized" by occupation. His only "shock" moment comes from realizing that the glorious Centuri Republic is facing consequences as a result of an insane child given absolute authority and from the shadows/vorlons and suddenly it's all been too much. Vir has it right which makes him the progressive humanist to Londo's staunch conservative imperialist. Even after all the horror Londo is still grasped by the prestige of his position, meanwhile Vir burnt his political career to the ground to save a few hundred Narn lives the moment he could. pentyne fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 05:08
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pentyne posted:He's a washed up nobody who dreams of the glory days of Empire and even if accidentally given a taste sees nothing wrong with his rise in status as the bodies pile up. To him, the non-centurai aren't worth the same and even asking for a day when they had power back is like the people now bemoaning how great it was in the 50s when people knew their place and wholesome values reigned. It's a extremely prejudiced and dangerous view. All the old Centauri statues on Narn were torn down, but one was erected, for the glorious Centauri hero, protector of the innocent: Abrahamo Lincolni, Righteous Among the Worlds.
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Jun 5, 2020 05:14
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Absurd Alhazred posted:All the old Centauri statues on Narn were torn down, but one was erected, for the glorious Centauri hero, protector of the innocent: Abrahamo Lincolni, Righteous Among the Worlds. 
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Jun 5, 2020 05:28
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sebmojo posted:Is it though? Morden got londo at a bad time, but he still basically gave him the imperialist version of the conan what is best in life speech, and that didn't come from nowhere. My recollection of his speech is more along the lines that he's resigned to watch the republic just kind of turn over. All the "great" things are over. His whole speech is sarcasm. Remember his first answer is "to be left alone" He knows that the centauri will never be able to reach forth their hand and command the stars. Actually I can't recall what episode that bit is in, but iirc this all happens just a bit after Born to the Purple.
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Jun 5, 2020 05:31
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Signs and portents.
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Jun 5, 2020 06:35
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MonsieurChoc posted:I took huge inspiration from The Shadows when I played a Setite in Vampire: the Masquerade, especially the whole "What do you want?" thing. A guy I played with took the name Morden because of the show. Think he was Ravnos though.
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Jun 5, 2020 06:40
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CainFortea posted:I think the thing that gets people about Londo's tragedy is he just kinda fell into it. He started by ranting at Mister Morden about what he wants, not believing anything would come of it. He was just popping off at a stranger that was bugging him. And his wants weren't evil at the start. He didn't say "oh I want to genocide people." "You killed ten thousand narns!" "I wasn't aware you cared." [...] "Why don't you eliminate the entire Narn homeworld while you're at it?" Something I keep remembering is what's pointed out in S1: Londo understands the third principle of sentient life, the capacity for self-sacrifice. He knows what it means to be a good person, because he has it inside of him. It's why, on one level, he hates and torments Vir: Because Vir reminds him of himself, before his hope and light died. (He explains this to Vir at some point, helping Vir not go down the same road he did.)
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Jun 5, 2020 08:08
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Bieeanshee posted:A guy I played with took the name Morden because of the show. Think he was Ravnos though. One of my college roommates played Subspace with a group where all the players had the first two words of their usernames “A Shadow” except for the group leader, who was “Morden” and called the other team members “his associates.” Along similar lines, in college I played the B5 Wars and Fleet Action tabletop ship combat games, and got a freebie black ball cap from some credit card hucksters called “The Associates” that had their name on it, which I made a point of putting on any time I had a Shadow fleet out.
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Jun 5, 2020 08:17
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Vavrek posted:"You killed ten thousand narns!" And the response to that: "One thing at a time, Ambassador". People need to stop thinking of Londo as someone who chose his direction. He did at first, but past a point he was propelled by momentum. If he had tried to stop, Refa would have had him killed and done it anyway. Think of him as a man on a horse. He starts out riding sedately and it's all good. The horse goes into trot without direction and it's a bit bumpy, but he can roll with it. Then it goes nuts and breaks into a gallop, going any way it wants, and all he can do is hold on and maybe try to bring it back under control because if he tries to get off, he'll break his neck.
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Jun 5, 2020 08:41
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CainFortea posted:My recollection of his speech is more along the lines that he's resigned to watch the republic just kind of turn over. All the "great" things are over. His whole speech is sarcasm. Remember his first answer is "to be left alone" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbckvO7VYxk It's explicit in the show that the imperial power Londo is yearning for was based on slave labour and oppression, and there's not really any good way to take "I want to see the Centauri stretch forth their hand again, and command the stars". Does he think it's likely to happen based on this conversation? Of course not, but the same is true of the person I overheard on my street the other day loudly announcing "we should send them all back where they came from".
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Jun 5, 2020 09:35
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MrL_JaKiri posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbckvO7VYxk I think it's less "send the back where they came from" and more "Everyone is laughing at us, Make Centauri Great Again" Londo's saving grace and damning sin was that he genuinely loved Centauri and its people, and only wanted what was best for them, not so much himself, and He would I wonder, if G'kar had shared that drink with Londo before he'd talked to Morden, if Londo had the chance to talk to the Emperor before he died, would he have softened and rejected Morden entirely? It's a fun bit of symmetry that G'kar started out the exact same way. Both loved their people more than anything and would do anything to elevate them to what they considered was their "rightful" place in the universe, both were humbled by the universe and came out better men for it, only the roads there where almost the opposite.
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Jun 5, 2020 12:46
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Jedit posted:People need to stop thinking of Londo as someone who chose his direction. He did at first, but past a point he was propelled by momentum. If he had tried to stop, Refa would have had him killed and done it anyway. Think of him as a man on a horse. He starts out riding sedately and it's all good. The horse goes into trot without direction and it's a bit bumpy, but he can roll with it. Then it goes nuts and breaks into a gallop, going any way it wants, and all he can do is hold on and maybe try to bring it back under control because if he tries to get off, he'll break his neck.
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Jun 5, 2020 13:15
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MrL_JaKiri posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbckvO7VYxk Yes, exactly. He's resigned to the centauri republic becoming "less" than it was. And all he wanted to do was have a good time while he could and maybe do a little bit of something to help it while it crumbled. That's why I think this whole bit is him being sarcastic. Or maybe just venting his spleen at what he sees is inevitable conclusion. That's the main difference I can see between him and any other tv villain I can think of. The others would be like "I'm gonna try to find this Morden guy I hear he can do things" and seek it out. Londo doesn't, and tries to get away from Morden cause he thinks he's just a nutball.
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Jun 5, 2020 15:06
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Dont anyone of you DARE say 'citizen G'Kar' in that newb thread!
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Jun 5, 2020 15:45
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Midjack posted:One of my college roommates played Subspace with a group where all the players had the first two words of their usernames “A Shadow” except for the group leader, who was “Morden” and called the other team members “his associates.” Oh poo poo I used to play Subspace/Continuum back in the day! Such a good space shooter
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Jun 5, 2020 16:08
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Slamhound posted:I don't think this is right. You could argue Londo was propelled by momentum during the Shadow War, but when Season 5 comes around and the Centauri are again under fire, his attitude is essentially the same. He was given ample and repeated opportunities throughout the series to turn away, and in nearly all the instances he seemed to fully understand the dilemma yet proceeded regardless. If he didn't "chose" his direction, it's because he willingly abdicated his choice in service of his vision of The Centauri Republic. Londo is a genuine patriot and nationalist and in it's purist form that is all but nihilist. When season 5 comes around his attitude is "Something is not right, and I'm gonna get to the bottom of it". He acts tough in the league meetings yes, because he thinks the centauri are being set up. G'kar says as much early on, that if they told Londo of their suspicions he'd go straight back to Centauri and poke around until they killed him. Season 5 Mollari is a whole different beast from season 3 Mollari
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Jun 5, 2020 16:11
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TraderStav posted:That may have been me, I did my first watch in December and shared a lot of thoughts here. Could a tracker be added to a thread? Almost like a poll but it has a username and and what episode they are on? It would have to be updated by the goon themselves but its a worthy idea that I am not nearly cool enough to know how to program. McCloud posted:I just finished ep 18 s5 of my b5 rewatch, and Londo's fate really bums me out. Despite it all, despite what he did, and despite him being the author of his own fate, he deserved better. And the idea that all his friends would think he turned on them again while he is all alone and desperate to protect them is just terrible beyond words. Londo really is a bitter pill to swallow. Almost everyone want to like him and so you keep watching, like the awesome Vir Cotto, hoping at some point he turns left but instead Londo keeps going right until he damns himself. The tragedy is he isn't some moustache twirling psycho.... some might even say wanting to raise his homeworld to glory is noble; but, he chooses to commit the worst of crimes to go about that goal. Like the worst crimes imaginable. Yeah Morden might have provided the tools but Londo chose to go full steam ahead. Vir could have also chosen a similar path and it would have been so much easier and provided a hawt wife and glory but Vir recognized the evil and denied it no matter the cost to himself. Yeah Vir turned out ok but he didn't know that and much of his safety was due to his "relationship" with Londo. Londo never said no. He rationalized it and justified it as so many have done in real life. Sadly, Londo is still is that guy who wants to stay up all night drinking with you and cheating at cards. He truly cares about his friends. He hates himself as much as anyone but that nugget of good, of something human inside him is buried under countless corpses that were created by his own actions and desires for glory. It's what makes him such a memorable character: so many authentic layers. I still say that when G'Kar killed him it was not out of hate or revenge but love and mercy for that last ember of the man that was. Even if he wasn't a Drakh puppet Londo would never have brought anything good to Centauri Prime as he romanticized the dream of what was. A dream built upon generations using the typical mortar of Imperialism: exploitation and murder. Say what you want about Vir but the guy doesn't buy into the same narrative. He wants to create a new and better world. In my head canon Vir starts a trend that keeps on going and is the true saviour of the Centauri. The one 100% piece of good Londo did accomplish was horrifying Vir out of complacency. G'Kar is almost the other side of the same coin. He starts out dark and focused on power and revenge, but you can sense a little of that good there. Over time he reaches his darkest days and ... chooses the path of light. Again and again, he tries to choose the light. That cult might have been too tempting an offer for the old G'Kar but he rejects it. He rejects Revenge and hatred while in the palace of the man who tortured him. The primary goal of the old G'Kar. He moves past the romantic trap of the world that was and looks to create something new, something better. That really is a theme of Babylon 5 and I think I remember reading Straczynski saying it blatantly (although he says lots of things and very much does the Rosy tinted glasses view/ will claim he meant to do something if someone figures out something really clever). sebmojo posted:Is it though? Morden got londo at a bad time, but he still basically gave him the imperialist version of the conan what is best in life speech, and that didn't come from nowhere. I really like this quote. I might steal it. DogsInSpace! fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 16:17
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All these thoughtful and insightful posts are making me want to do a rewatch again damnit! Problem is I’m too occupied with my first watch through of a few other really good shows. How to balance this?
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Jun 5, 2020 16:57
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I've recently stated watching the series myself, after only really hearing of it occasionally in passing. Currently in the latter half of S4. And as much as I'd like to skim around in the thread, I'm wary of getting spoiled. I wasn't entirely sure what I was expecting when I went into it, but it's been a great ride so far. At first it was a lot of 'Oh, so -that- is where that avatar/image is from.', but it's a surprisingly soulful show in a way I wasn't really expecting. (I'm pretty sure I've seen Kosh and Lando avatars hanging out on the forums over the years.) The epedemic episode just ending with the entire race being killed off was probably the point that hammered it in that not everything is going to be tied up neatly. As has been mentioned a great many times for the show, it really shows that it's been by and large a planned affair, with a clear-cut arc for the entire show. Mixed in with some pretty cheap, but sometimes entertaining filler. And some plot threads really seem to simmer for a long time, it does make me wonder how it was to watch this in realtime, where it would have been months between Garibaldy's plot thread in S4 getting started, then put on the backburner, then started to get brought back into focus. It's also very fun to try and look at how some threads could have been different depending on casting opportunities and etc. Like it very much seemed like Talia stepped in because Lyta's actress was unavailable. Then Lyta got woven back in as Talia's actress stepped away. Still a station telepath, but because the Ironheart(sp?) event was tied to Talia, they needed a different reason for her to be a superstrong psionic. I really like this show, and it's sad it didn't get the recognition and visibility of other series from the same time period. (Also I am incredibly glad that Ivanova suddenly snapped from basically making a 'I'm russian / russion joke / ah yes, russian attitude.' snips almost every episode to not doing so in the latter seasons. It got surprisingly grating when binging the show. Just *snap* and it was gone come season 2.) (Also^2, what was it about the early 90s which made psionics/empaths suddenly such a scifi staple? Was it just to allow for a communication shorthand with nonhuman species which might not always be able to communicate? They just feel like such a 90s staple.)
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Jun 5, 2020 17:09
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SubNat posted:Currently in the latter half of S4. Definitely don't skim this as we've been sort of lax on some spoilers on this very page. Even as late as you are in the series.
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Jun 5, 2020 17:12
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If would be nice if we start spoiling again in this thread even with the Younger Races thread. First time watchers might jump in here instead. And yes I am guilty too. I will correct my own behavior.
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Jun 5, 2020 17:16
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Jedit posted:And the response to that: "One thing at a time, Ambassador". We know full well that Londo was able to keep Refa from assassinating him - remember when he poisons him with half of a binary nerve agent to stop him from continuing his association with the Shadows? This comes after the subjugation of Narn. The Shadows had to fool him into thinking that Refa had assassinated Adira to get him back in the game. But he could have done this at any earlier time - it would have been easier the earlier he'd done it, because it took some time and the Shadows` help to get Refa to be a significant power on Centauri anyway.
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Jun 5, 2020 18:03
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pentyne posted:Vir has it right which makes him the progressive humanist to Londo's staunch conservative imperialist. Even after all the horror Londo is still grasped by the prestige of his position, meanwhile Vir burnt his political career to the ground to save a few hundred Narn lives the moment he could. This is so beautifully said. Vir really is too pure for the world. It's great that he's the only one that got his wish from Mr. Morden, and he's definitely the best next Centauri Emperor that they could have gotten.
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Jun 5, 2020 19:06
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Torrannor posted:This is so beautifully said. Vir really is too pure for the world. It's great that he's the only one that got his wish from Mr. Morden, and he's definitely the best next Centauri Emperor that they could have gotten. The thing with Vir is is that I assume he leads the centauri republic into a new era of peace and prosperity. He builds bridges and connects with others, and the centauri get a renaissance. In short, they end up being able to control the stars and to be in full glory, only without the slave empire and bullshit they had before. So in a way, Londo's wish get's fulfilled in a way not dreamed of by the shadows.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:14
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CainFortea posted:The thing with Vir is is that I assume he leads the centauri republic into a new era of peace and prosperity. He builds bridges and connects with others, and the centauri get a renaissance. In short, they end up being able to control the stars and to be in full glory, only without the slave empire and bullshit they had before. So in a way, Londo's wish get's fulfilled in a way not dreamed of by the shadows. The Centauri seem to be doing better and Vir is probably one of the best people to lead them but Vir has a keeper in the final episode so he’s still getting hosed with by the Drakh and I can’t imagine they’re just going to let the Centauri be nice guys forever.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:24
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Doctor Zero posted:If would be nice if we start spoiling again in this thread even with the Younger Races thread. First time watchers might jump in here instead. I think you get better analysis when people aren't treading on eggshells though, like that magisterial breakdown of londo a few posts up. No harm in using spoiler blocks though.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:35
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Von_doom, the line about your worst/best days is from order of the stick, which starts as a silly d&d comic but has developed into legitimate pop literature.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:38
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Midjack posted:The Centauri seem to be doing better and Vir is probably one of the best people to lead them but Vir has a keeper in the final episode so he’s still getting hosed with by the Drakh and I can’t imagine they’re just going to let the Centauri be nice guys forever. Londo s5 spoiler and beyond Vir does not have a keeper. The Londo-Centauri-Drakh plot gets fleshed out in the Centauri prime book trilogy. Londo manages to give out enough subtle clues that Vir, together with technomages, manages to piece together the truth, and build together a rebel insurrection that ousts the Drakh, and also restores Londos reputation. It ends with them building enormous statues of G'kar and Londo watching over Centauri Prime, and each other's backs.
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Jun 5, 2020 21:08
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