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So whatever happened to Catherine Sakai anyways? Sinclair proposed to her at the end of season one but isn't mentioned again. And how would the whole Sinclair and Delenn having a son thing worked if she was still around before the rewrite?
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Jun 6, 2020 23:39
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Geez these new watchers are really good at watching TV. Enjoyed them picking up on Mordens shadowy nature.
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Jun 6, 2020 23:48
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^^^ His nature isn't exactly hidden. I'm amused by The Doctor thinking that it was Morden himself that damaged Kosh's encounter suit, though.Eighties ZomCom posted:So whatever happened to Catherine Sakai anyways? Sinclair proposed to her at the end of season one but isn't mentioned again. And how would the whole Sinclair and Delenn having a son thing worked if she was still around before the rewrite? Spoilers for 4X09 Atonement, To Dream In The City of Sorrows (novel) and In Valen's Name (comic): Sakai joins the Rangers, but is lost on a mission to stop the Shadows capturing the temporal rift in Sector 14 through which B4 was pulled. Marcus Cole later receives a letter on very old Minbari paper that is addressed from both of them, although due to a Minbari custom of always using the oldest paper you can find for something important he doesn't know when it was written. Later, in 2261, the wreck of Babylon 4 is found. On board there is a final message from Valen which concludes with "I've found her". Combined with the knowledge that after the First Shadow War Valen went to live in seclusion and his family only returned to Minbar much later, it seems certain that Sinclair used the Triluminary to convert Sakai into a Minbari and married her. Jedit fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 23:56
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Grand Fromage posted:The show as aired diverges radically from The Plan, but just the fact that JMS had been thinking about the show for 10+ years gave him the tools needed to make everything look smooth even when it wasn't. (I write novels, though, so I don't have to worry about actors leaving or suits saying "Hey, what if we had a character whose job it is to gently caress aliens when our heroes make first contact with a new species.")
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Jun 7, 2020 00:05
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Jedit posted:^^^ His nature isn't exactly hidden. I'm amused by The Doctor thinking that it was Morden himself that damaged Kosh's encounter suit, though. I've never read the novels and stuff but this seems like a really nice way to give closure to these two characters 
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Jun 7, 2020 00:30
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TheAardvark's next episode is "Grail", ha, I'm really curious about what they will make out of it.
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Jun 7, 2020 00:36
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It still just feels so skeevy to me that Delenn secretly married Sinclair without his knowledge and then just flipped around and put all those new feelings into Sheridan. Which I guess in the original plan, Sakai would've gone mysteriously missing around Zahaduum, and Delenn would only start being forward with Sinclair after she was gone (only to come back later as a pro-shadow shell of her former self), but it's still just such a weird moment.
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Jun 7, 2020 00:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:It still just feels so skeevy to me that Delenn secretly married Sinclair without his knowledge and then just flipped around and put all those new feelings into Sheridan. Wait, what?
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Jun 7, 2020 00:54
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Is there a better payoff in all of sci-fi than the "No Hiding Place" scene in season 4? I do feel like it was maybe the first (or among the first) such scene where completely incongruous music was used to amazing dramatic effect. I like to think of everything from the warm jazz space battle music of Cowboy Bebop to the retro synth navel-gazing soundtrack of the climax of Uncut Gems as owing a debt to it.
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Jun 7, 2020 00:58
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Data Graham posted:I do feel like it was maybe the first (or among the first) such scene where completely incongruous music was used to amazing dramatic effect. The Godfather, Part I? Reservoir Dogs?
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Jun 7, 2020 00:59
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I mean except for all the examples I’m not thinking of lmao E: or maybe I mean “in TV”. Like that’s kind of a defining feature of ~prestige~ TV drama nowadays but it was pretty rare then.
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Jun 7, 2020 01:03
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Data Graham posted:I do feel like it was maybe the first (or among the first) such scene where completely incongruous music was used to amazing dramatic effect. Babylon 5 did benefit from an outstanding soundtrack.
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Jun 7, 2020 01:39
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Doctor Zero posted:I don't know why you keep saying he didn't. Please cite your sources. He talks about his exit strategy for characters quite a bit in the script books, including what would have happened to people who didn't leave. I'm fairly certain he talked about it on usenet as well. Repeating this, the only reason I even brought the subject up in this thread was your response in the other one Anonymous Zebra posted:This isn't even remotely true, but it's not something we can discuss in detail in a newbie thread. The original plot for Babylon 5 that JMS "planned" ahead of time resembles almost in no way the plot of the show that aired, diverging mid-way through season 1 and never going back. Babylon 5 is a very good show for it's time despite the cheap budget, and huge production issues the show ran into, but JMS has been blowing air up peoples asses claiming for decades about how well planned the show was while evidence from his early internet posts show that he was basically doing a really good job of making stuff up as he went. Again, we can't really talk about it here, but everyone who has seen the series knows what major production issues I'm talking about and how they drastically changed the plot of the show. Yet everyone else is saying there are multiple sources contradicting this and JMS himself saying the same thing over the last 20 years and your main argument is that he's lying about it.
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Jun 7, 2020 01:59
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Though I'm glad they ditched the comedy music, it gets used once early on in ... Soulhunter...? Then NEVER AGAIN
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Jun 7, 2020 02:04
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Eighties ZomCom posted:And how would the whole Sinclair and Delenn having a son thing worked if she was still around before the rewrite? She undoubtedly would have played a very similar role that Anna Sheridan did in the show we got.
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Jun 7, 2020 02:49
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mllaneza posted:Babylon 5 did benefit from an outstanding soundtrack. It would have been interesting to hear what Stewart Copeland would have done for a full series, though.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:03
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SlothfulCobra posted:It still just feels so skeevy to me that Delenn secretly married Sinclair without his knowledge and then just flipped around and put all those new feelings into Sheridan. In the original plan, Catherine Sakai suffers an extremely traumatic mind wipe (JMS straight up calls it mind rape) that destroys her personality and memories. Given the choice between repeating the process in the hopes of reversing it, which would have been equally as traumatic, Sinclair declines to do so. it's not specified as being Shadow related and there's no Z'ha'dum in the treatment, but it's another one of those things where you can see JMS pulled from ideas he'd laid out and adapted them into something similar. MrL_JaKiri posted:Honestly, "having the entire thing planned out" is too limiting anyway. It's good to have a plan to fall back on, but you should always be open to future-you having better ideas. The ending is probably one of the best examples of that. In the original treatment among other things it ended with Sinclair retiring to self imposed exile alone on an uninhabited world to live out his remaining days. I kind of get what JMS was going for but at the same time Sinclair just choosing to leave Delenn and their son doesn't strike me as something that would have been especially satisfying.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:29
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Seemlar posted:...at the same time Sinclair just choosing to leave Delenn and their son doesn't strike me as something that would have been especially satisfying. My God, DS9 really was ripping off B5!
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Jun 7, 2020 09:07
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The Doctor is going to get burnt at the stake when he eventually comes in here, considering the dissing he just gave to A Voice in the Wilderness.
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Jun 7, 2020 23:15
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Doctor Zero posted:Ah okay. JMS’ account in the script book is different but maybe he didn’t know the whole story then. Or I could be misremembering. Where did you see that? (Not challenging you I’m just interested in reading about it). JMS does give the account he originally believed in the first script book. Pat's account is in Pleasure Thresholds, which she published through the same team that did the script books. That's when she and JMS reconnected and he got the background on what happened.
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Jun 8, 2020 00:10
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Jedit posted:The Doctor is going to get burnt at the stake when he eventually comes in here, considering the dissing he just gave to A Voice in the Wilderness. That's TheAardvark. The_Doctor hasn't gotten to voice yet. Also i'll hold the torches and pitchforks till they're done with the whole show, they might change their mind later.
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Jun 8, 2020 00:37
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Jedit posted:The Doctor is going to get burnt at the stake when he eventually comes in here, considering the dissing he just gave to A Voice in the Wilderness. I wanted to write a reply sooo bad. But the greater good must prevail
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Jun 8, 2020 00:56
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McCloud posted:I wanted to write a reply sooo bad. But the greater good must prevail I don't even know how to reply to their take because it's like they barely paid attention to the episode if those were their complaints. Binging a series has its benefits and drawbacks, probably one we're seeing now that 19 hours in after what, 2 weeks? into a 90s TV series people are staring to miss things in the show and not making any connections between previous episodes when it starts blurring together. Does season 1 on a first watch not convey how completely far above the other races the Vorlons are? By Deathwalker its obvious that not only are the Vorlons barely involved with what is going on but they can do what they want in spite of all 4 great powers and the entire league and not give the slightest gently caress about consequences. In any context you'd see that and think it's some hyper power that really doesn't worry about anything involving the little people and sending a Vorlon ambassador is more like "sure have fun in the petting zoo" for them.
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Jun 8, 2020 01:17
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They're mostly portrayed as aloof and distant, but powerful. Not sure it conveys just how powerful they are by s1, but that's gonna change real quick.
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Jun 8, 2020 01:23
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Narsham posted:JMS does give the account he originally believed in the first script book. Pat's account is in Pleasure Thresholds, which she published through the same team that did the script books. That's when she and JMS reconnected and he got the background on what happened. Ah okay thanks. I wanted to get that but between the title and how my wife knows my uh - fondness - for Pat I thought maybe not. I’ll have to see if I can manage to get it.
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Jun 8, 2020 03:55
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Doctor Zero posted:Ah okay thanks. I wanted to get that but between the title and how my wife knows my uh - fondness - for Pat I thought maybe not. I’ll have to see if I can manage to get it. https://www.cafepress.com/b5pat was her store but it appears to be unavailable. Lol at 250 for a copy on Amazon.
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Jun 8, 2020 04:37
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McCloud posted:They're mostly portrayed as aloof and distant, but powerful. Not sure it conveys just how powerful they are by s1, but that's gonna change real quick. They already turned up and merced Deathwalker, and nobody said or did a thing. At the same time Kosh basically admitted that the Vorlons are immortal.
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Jun 8, 2020 08:32
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Jedit posted:They already turned up and merced Deathwalker, and nobody said or did a thing. At the same time Kosh basically admitted that the Vorlons are immortal. Sinclair even jokes "well go ahead and file a complaint" while grinning because he knows literally no one and nothing is going to make the Vorlons care.
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Jun 8, 2020 10:36
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Gdi Im looking at my vague first watch notes on pieces of paper I never posted and laughing. (still very sorry never posted) These guys are doing it right, let them be as is. Let them enjoy  Their "wrong" opinions and misunderstandings will make later revelations far better than separate explanations now. 
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Jun 8, 2020 10:53
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In retrospect, It's pretty amazing how good B5 turned out. With being run on a smaller network, working under fears of being cancelled, revamping season 4 under the impression it would be the last season, and even managing a decent surprise season 5 (that's mostly weighed down by Byron, the rest is pretty good imho). And they didn't even need a film to wrap up the series properly. There are other series, especially in the sci-fi genre, that fared far worse. You can see the three major possible outcomes in Stargate: Atlantis had a proper ending, SG1 needed a film to achieve that, and Universe was just suddenly canceled.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:09
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Torrannor posted:In retrospect, It's pretty amazing how good B5 turned out. With being run on a smaller network, working under fears of being cancelled, revamping season 4 under the impression it would be the last season, and even managing a decent surprise season 5 (that's mostly weighed down by Byron, the rest is pretty good imho). And they didn't even need a film to wrap up the series properly. Stargate SG-1 was in an odd situation. They expected to end with S7, so they wrote a season ender that capped off the series as well. Then they got picked up for one year, so they repeated the process with S8 and again with S9 only to be picked up again. Then in S10 they didn't write a capper expecting to be picked up for S11 and then got cancelled. That's why the movie was needed.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:17
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I actually agree with that poster, VitW is not a particularly good two-parter. It seeds a lot of important things but I think the main plot is very drawn out to fill the two-part episode. Although the poster calling out the contrivances in the first paragraph is great, knowing the reason behind all of those, it's a good catch that they're questioning all these weird coincidences.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:24
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hope and vaseline posted:I actually agree with that poster, VitW is not a particularly good two-parter. It seeds a lot of important things but I think the main plot is very drawn out to fill the two-part episode. Although the poster calling out the contrivances in the first paragraph is great, knowing the reason behind all of those, it's a good catch that they're questioning all these weird coincidences. Voice in the Wilderness was written as a two-parter at the request of Warner, who wanted a second movie-length story to follow up the pilot. It would have been very cramped as a single episode, though - most of the main cast would have to have been cropped.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:34
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Babylon squared is the real mind blower
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Jun 8, 2020 11:40
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sebmojo posted:Babylon squared is the real mind blower Oh, yes, I'm looking forward to them reaching that one. "We're receiving a distress signal. Commander - it's Babylon 4." Anyone who can hear that for the first time and not feel simultaneously chilled to the bone and giddy excited should just get the gently caress out, because good TV is not for them.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:49
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sebmojo posted:Babylon squared is the real mind blower Yeah that's a great end of episode stinger that just percolated for years. It's like if rather then trying to build up in one season to drip fed secret then massive reveal like West World something was jump dropped in an episode that makes everyone go "wtf that is insane" and it doesn't come back up for years but everyone knows it must at some point.
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Jun 8, 2020 11:52
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I've always wondered, is that episode title a hint? English not being my native language, I interpret Babylon Squared as being similar (though not mathematically, of course) to "Babylon times two" = two Babylon stations?
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Jun 8, 2020 12:07
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Torrannor posted:I've always wondered, is that episode title a hint? English not being my native language, I interpret Babylon Squared as being similar (though not mathematically, of course) to "Babylon times two" = two Babylon stations? Pretty much. To square something is to multiple a number by itself. So, four squared is sixteen. Two squared just gives you four.
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Jun 8, 2020 12:17
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Torrannor posted:There are other series, especially in the sci-fi genre, that fared far worse. You can see the three major possible outcomes in Stargate: Atlantis had a proper ending, SG1 needed a film to achieve that, and Universe was just suddenly canceled. Did I miss something in Atlantis, because I disagree it had a proper ending. The threat to Earth was stopped and the team returned home, but the wraith as a whole are still out there, not only poised to again steamroll the Pegasus galaxy but still trying to find a way to Earth and the Milky Way.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:14
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Did I miss something in Atlantis, because I disagree it had a proper ending. The threat to Earth was stopped and the team returned home, but the wraith as a whole are still out there, not only poised to again steamroll the Pegasus galaxy but still trying to find a way to Earth and the Milky Way. Which they can't since the only Pegasus gate that can dial the Milky Way is now on Earth. They could theoretically find more ZPMs to make another super ship, but that's not super likely. And besides, if I recall correctly, the Wraith had mostly been decimated, and if not for that alternate dimension "Michael", the only thing left to the anti-Wraith forces was to mop them up? Torrannor fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 13:20
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