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Somaen posted:It's jarring how aggressive and confrontational they are to southern countries while not standing up to Russia Is Russia asking the Dutch for 100 billion euro from their state budget?
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May 29, 2020 13:17
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double nine posted:what is the cake in this case? An artificially depressed currency? They basically want the EU and euro to be like it was before 2008 for all eternity and just flat out ignore the structural problems inherent that lead to the crash, subsequent lost generation, and the new crashes that it will generate yet.
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May 29, 2020 13:24
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Somaen posted:I have asked some Dutch people about it and the narrative seems to be "we are small and too economically weak to stand up to Russia" which is just precious to hear as someone coming from a Baltic state. quote:The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Netherlands was worth 951 billion US dollars in 2019, according to official data from the World Bank and projections from Trading Economics. quote:The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in Russia was worth 1750 billion US dollars in 2019, according to official data from the World Bank and projections from Trading Economics. The Netherlands are equivalent to 11% of the Russian population, but to 54% of its GDP. The European Union as a whole, even with the recent amputation of the UK, represents 300% of the Russian population and 1000% of its GDP. They've got no loving excuse.
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May 29, 2020 13:24
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Cat Mattress posted:The Netherlands are equivalent to 11% of the Russian population, but to 54% of its GDP. The European Union as a whole, even with the recent amputation of the UK, represents 300% of the Russian population and 1000% of its GDP. They've got no loving excuse.
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May 29, 2020 13:31
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I suspect some American influence as well. Seeing that Wilders and Baudet (and by extension likely part of the VVD, the largest party, as well) seem to belong to the same sphere of influence as Putin and Trump.
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May 29, 2020 13:50
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Somaen posted:How deep in the pockets of Russian mafia are the Dutch politicians? It's jarring how aggressive and confrontational they are to southern countries while not standing up to Russia after they shot down a plane full of their citizens, voted to bring them back to the council, raised a stink about the agreement with Ukraine, etc. The actual pro Putin politicians are the hard/alt right ones like Baudet and Wilders, same as everywhere really. The Ukraine agreement was generally supported by the Dutch centre left to centre right parties, including those in government. It was only opposed by aforementioned extreme right opposition, the socialist party and the anticapitalist animal rights party. But the rightists and leftists managed to defeat it by 61% in a referendum with a abysmal 32% turnout, just over the legal minimum. I didn't really follow the whole council of Europe thing but apparantly the argument is that keeping Russia out denies Russian citizens acces to sue their government in the ECHR? The "we're just a small country" is indeed a pretty common isolationist sentiment here. Economic weakness not so much. More often it is phrased as a complaint we haven't solved each and every economic issue at home yet (woe is us) so why spend any single euro abroad.
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May 29, 2020 14:04
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Baudet is such a loser. He asked the leader of the SP to explain what she meant with neoliberalism and why it's bad and when she did he acted like it was some huge own towards her? And we should definitely be helping the Southern EU. gently caress we're the EU now, north-south-east-west shouldn't be a thing anymore. Close the Dutch tax loopholes and loving show solidarity with our fellows jesus.
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May 29, 2020 14:22
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AlexanderCA posted:I didn't really follow the whole council of Europe thing but apparantly the argument is that keeping Russia out denies Russian citizens acces to sue their government in the ECHR? I mean yeah that's more or less it, but unlike EU countries Russia doesn't have to follow the judgements. It does still put PR pressure on them though. It's more about the optics of saying no to "hey we want to sign up to your human rights treaty again".
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May 29, 2020 14:23
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An insane mind posted:And we should definitely be helping the Southern EU. gently caress we're the EU now, north-south-east-west shouldn't be a thing anymore. Close the Dutch tax loopholes and loving show solidarity with our fellows jesus. Don't cry for the south, we're already dead.
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May 29, 2020 14:27
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Angry Lobster posted:Don't cry for the south, we're already dead. I'm not sad, I'm angry and I wish I could punch Rutte and the other right wing cunts leading my government and just scream AUSTERITY IS BULLSHIT as I do so. For any mods I won't, because I abhor violence, but I wish I would.
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May 29, 2020 14:39
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Well the Dutch attitude is leading to more fuel on the proverbial fire https://twitter.com/GiorgiaMeloni/status/1266331053439975424
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May 29, 2020 14:48
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lol I feel like even if that's your general thrust, there's a more respectful way to put it
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May 29, 2020 14:50
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Italian Stalin is lounging about with YOUR HARD EARNED DUTCH MONEY
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May 29, 2020 14:52
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Jesus Christ Backgammon? Really?
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May 29, 2020 14:54
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I mean I realize they're going for the 'ironic hyperbole' thing, but it's 100% what they actually think. 'Demanding an apology' specifically for that is dumb, though, Elsevier is not owned by the Dutch state.
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May 29, 2020 14:55
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Elsevier is disgusting trash btw. It's the company that makes all its money from rent-seeking in academic publishing. As you can see they then use some of that money to push right-wing narratives. They would completely cease to exist if we made a law that said any scientific research which received a single cent of public money should be available publicly for free. Which is totally a thing the EU should do anyway. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 14:58 on May 29, 2020 |
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May 29, 2020 14:56
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Orange Devil posted:Elsevier is disgusting trash btw. thinking about academic publishing legit triggers a sort of primal lizard response in me lol plan S is doing something of this sort, though of course it's being done in such a way as to keep the parasites mostly happy
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May 29, 2020 15:00
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Just to be clear, the EU is the kind of supranational organization that could actually pass and enforce a law making sure academic publishing funded by public money becomes a public good. If dozens of individual countries all had to make this happen on their own somehow, well it'd never work. And the EU has been making noises vaguely in this direction. So the EU is the biggest threat to Elsevier's business model, and they have a direct financial interest in seeing it disintegrate. Once again, as every loving time this is true: this isn't an issue of nation versus nation. This isn't an issue of North Vs South Europe. This is an issue of class. It's about those who own poo poo versus the rest of us. Italian tweet lady is misdirecting her righteous rage. This is a naked attempt by capital to make the average Italian and the average Dutchman fight over the scraps while they make out with *checks wikipedia* ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsevier posted:Revenue £2.54 billion (2018)[1] ... literally hundreds of millions of dollars. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 15:14 on May 29, 2020 |
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May 29, 2020 15:08
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Italian tweet lady is the head of Fratelli d'italia... I think shes aware of what she's doing
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May 29, 2020 15:12
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scumaliom posted:Italian tweet lady is the head of Fratelli d'italia... I think shes aware of what she's doing Oh I see, well gently caress her too then.
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May 29, 2020 15:14
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In the war of ultra rightwingers, we all lose.
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May 29, 2020 15:31
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scumaliom posted:Well the Dutch attitude is leading to more fuel on the proverbial fire https://twitter.com/GiorgiaMeloni/status/1266331053439975424 https://twitter.com/insoniascarvao/status/1266315171829596161?s=19
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May 29, 2020 15:53
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Orange Devil posted:Elsevier is disgusting trash btw. When I was doing my PhD, everyone in my lab (and the surrounding ones) were trying very hard to publish with Elsevier. We also made a point of promoting sci-hub whereever we could. gently caress these guys. It must be getting better though. I've witnessed a growing number of institutions that have/had open access policies where researchers were supposed to publish in open access journals only (unless infeasible). Online science networks also are great at tearing down publishing barriers and facilitate academic exchange. Lord Stimperor fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 29, 2020 |
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May 29, 2020 20:12
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By the way, it's great that the magazine's title literally reads 'Ew', very fitting.
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May 29, 2020 20:17
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I'm not completely sure which thread this fits into, but... https://twitter.com/bouboutyassine/status/1270287174840266752 imho they should have just cut the hands off and left it there
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Jun 9, 2020 14:55
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Hell yes! I went to check the Standaard and it's completely gone. I hope the momentum keeps up and they remove every reference to this fucker. The good thing is that both Flemish and Walloon nationalists generally hate the monarchy (albeit not entirely for the same reasons), so I don't see who would oppose it other than a handful of aging, conservative pro-Belgian loyalists, a nearly extinct species.
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Jun 9, 2020 15:14
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So, if the dude that represents the nation is hated by both sides of a bitter ethnic divide.... what is that for the prospects of the nation? Good?
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Jun 9, 2020 15:32
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That is the Belgian paradox, the sociological divide is so strong and federalism has progressed to the extent that it's now a 'good fences' sort of situation - the divide you refer to is neither particularly bitter nor ethnic, and most people regardless of language are similarly indifferent towards the monarchy. This will not have any real impact on Belgium's future either way. That's actually the reason these statues were still around in the first place, no one really gave a poo poo about him. However, for the same reason, hopefully there will be no real opposition to their continued removal from public spaces. I'm all for it, as someone who is both Flemish and disgusted by the atrocities he's responsible for.
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Jun 9, 2020 15:39
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So Belgian nationalism is dead (and it has been for quite some time, it seems) and popular support instead resides on the different regionalist movements, and as such the monarchy as an institution doesn't have a clear cut place on the current political landscape?
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Jun 9, 2020 15:55
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I know I keep talking about this 'Belgian paradox' term that I pulled out of my rear end, but I think it describes the situation quite well. Belgium is both more and less cohesive than foreigners tend to assume. It's a paradox on the surface, but when you think it through it starts making sense. Regionalist movements in Belgium are actually quite weak. Regionalism in Wallonia is practically dead in a political sense, has been since the mid-nineties when it became clear that federalism hadn't led to the economic resurgence the Parti Socialiste was hoping for. Even the Flemish Movement isn't actually all that significant, and more often serves as a bogeyman for its opponents than as a real political force. People sometimes add up the N-VA and Vlaams Belang percentages to show how nationalistic Flemings are, but that is very misleading. N-VA has a ton of voters who are just vaguely neo-liberal or right-wing, and Vlaams Belang gets 90%> of its votes for its xenophobic stance. Yes, these people don't mind voting for parties that explicitly want to destroy Belgium, but that's not the same as saying they have a strong Flemish identity in a positive sense. As for the existence of Belgian nationalism, that's an interesting question, and the answer would depend on your definition of nationalism. It's clear that traditional Belgian conservatism and royalism, based on bourgeois francophone supremacism, is nearly extinct, with the exception of a handful of pensioners in Brussels. That's why no one really objects to removing these statues. However, Belgian nationalism still exists, both on a surface level (e.g. supporting the football team) and as a surreal 'anti-nationalism', that of course involving the implicit admission that Belgium isn't a nation. Most of the 'bad' parties and people (and to be fair a lot of those people really are shitheads) are in favor of Flemish autonomy, therefore as a correct-thinking leftist I must disavow nationalism and be in favor of Belgian unity. This has led to the absurd situation that the small If I had to sum up the Belgian paradox, I would say that Belgium is stable (more stable than many think) precisely because it is so hollowed-out already (also to a greater extent than is generally assumed). No one except ideologically committed Flemish nationalists, ultimately a fairly small minority, has any reason to want to rock the boat too much. People tend to compare Belgium to Switzerland, but I would say Bosnia and Herzegovina in 2020 is a better comparison. The Republika Srpska, or any other part of that state, has no particular reason or desire to demand formal independence, and relations between the communities are generally peaceful, even if there is still friction and resentment over the past. If my explanation is confusing, don't worry about it, most Belgians don't know anything about their own country's history, and never think about it beyond what the newspaper headlines are saying that day.
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Jun 9, 2020 17:06
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Nenonen posted:I'm not completely sure which thread this fits into, but... Holy poo poo they're getting rid of the Congolese genocides architect statue? loving good because that's the worst part of dutch history
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Jun 9, 2020 18:33
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Holy poo poo they're getting rid of the Congolese genocides architect statue? loving good because that's the worst part of dutch history I hate that famous dutchman King Leopold II too. Glad the politicians in Copenhagen finally came to their senses on this one.
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Jun 9, 2020 19:44
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Phlegmish posted:Regionalist movements in Belgium are actually quite weak. Regionalism in Wallonia is practically dead in a political sense, has been since the mid-nineties when it became clear that federalism hadn't led to the economic resurgence the Parti Socialiste was hoping for. It's true that foreign media likes to project the image of an ever increasing nationalistic Flanders however it makes sense that the ideological landscape it's actually way less homogeneous than it seems. Phlegmish posted:If I had to sum up the Belgian paradox, I would say that Belgium is stable (more stable than many think) precisely because it is so hollowed-out already (also to a greater extent than is generally assumed). No one except ideologically committed Flemish nationalists, ultimately a fairly small minority, has any reason to want to rock the boat too much. People tend to compare Belgium to Switzerland, but I would say Bosnia and Herzegovina in 2020 is a better comparison. The Republika Srpska, or any other part of that state, has no particular reason or desire to demand formal independence, and relations between the communities are generally peaceful, even if there is still friction and resentment over the past. The vibe I'm picking, and from what I heard, is that most of the increase in Flemish nationalism is due mostly to economic/civic issues, xenophobic stuff from Vlaams Belang aside, is that even remotely true? Phlegmish posted:If my explanation is confusing, don't worry about it, most Belgians don't know anything about their own country's history, and never think about it beyond what the newspaper headlines are saying that day. This line can be applied almost verbatim to Catalans (and Spaniards) as well. Reality is never simple, sadly. Interesting read, thanks for the insight.
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Jun 9, 2020 20:32
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:I hate that famous dutchman King Leopold II too. Glad the politicians in Copenhagen finally came to their senses on this one. I'm sure they will continue to white wash the history of the man though I don't think the Dutch can handle being literally Hitler's Germany in terms of destruction and death done to the Congolese people
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Jun 9, 2020 21:12
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I'm sure they will continue to white wash the history of the man though I don't think the Dutch can handle being literally Hitler's Germany in terms of destruction and death done to the Congolese people Are you doing a bit or do you genuinely not know the difference between the Netherlands and Belgium?
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Jun 9, 2020 21:56
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Angry Lobster posted:This line can be applied almost verbatim to Catalans (and Spaniards) as well. Reality is never simple, sadly. It can be totally applied to every country in the continent, except for Vatican City and the Knights of Malta (whose couple dozen diplomatic passport holders are presumably well-educated individuals). Most people never get seriously interested in politics, beyond what they need to know to apply for tax deductions or welfare benefits. Sports-like banter a la "the government are a bunch of rich corrupt bastards! *burp*" doesn't count as serious interest. This is not a good thing, in the sense that the country would run better if everybody spent maybe 15 minutes a day fact-checking the day's headlines, but it is very much a good thing in the sense that it's a sign of a stable, peaceful, reasonably livable society if ordinary people can afford to just forget the government exists. Places where being up-to-date on the political situation is an essential skill tend not to be very nice places to live in.
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Jun 9, 2020 21:58
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Angry Lobster posted:
NihilCredo posted:.
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Jun 9, 2020 22:46
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The efficiency of Belgium really showed during the covid pandemic. We've got 9 ministers across the federal an regional governments that have varying degrees of responsibilities when it comes to healthcare and hospitals. You can imagine the speed of correct decision making. Some hospitals prepared for the crisis by quickly changing their current infrastructure to have a mostly separated covid-19 wing. Others couldn't afford that or it was just impractical and had to resort to containers or tents. I remember reading that depending on how they solved it, a different minister would be responsible for that specific hospital. Not that this lead to more deaths. The Belgian death rate is pretty high but that's because we've been reporting suspected cases along with confirmed ones, which is backed up by the number of overall deaths. Other nations are only reporting official case fatalities but the number of overall extra deaths is way higher and in like with Belgium's.
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Jun 10, 2020 03:26
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Osmosisch posted:Are you doing a bit or do you genuinely not know the difference between the Netherlands and Belgium? Sorry, my mistake. Belgium is what i'm talking about. Not the Netherlands.
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Jun 10, 2020 03:54
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Sorry, my mistake. Belgium is what i'm talking about. Not the Netherlands. Are you sure it's not Denmark? NihilCredo posted:It can be totally applied to every country in the continent, except for Vatican City and the Knights of Malta (whose couple dozen diplomatic passport holders are presumably well-educated individuals). Malta literally sells EU passports my dude. And blows up journalists asking inconvenient questions.
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Jun 10, 2020 08:32
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