|
sebmojo posted:Why does mass appeal equal full of bugs was my meaning. My case is that playing it safe, pump out an annual “the same but more” is not in fact a safe way to achieve things in this business. The approach offers managers the illusion of reliability but in actual practice, we see that’s not the case. It doesn’t equal full of bugs but it doesn’t guarantee against it. More to the point I’m saying that mass appeal doesn’t really mean anything at all. It’s a myth. Dark Souls 3 sold 10 million copies. Is it a mass appeal game?
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 13:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
grieving for Gandalf posted:there's something you keep missing about people's complaints, but I don't really know what it is. it sounds bad, dude, I don't need to read this same argument from you every two or three pages people reading realistic depictions of violence as "making violence fun" is bizarre to me sorry. maybe itll turn out that they are actually trying to use realistic violence as something thats fun but when they consistently keep saying "its to make the violence bad and to make people feel bad for being violent" that wouldnt appear to be making violence fun or saying its good. making npcs cry out in horror at the death of their friends isnt something you add into a piece of media in the interests of glorifying violence. most AAA games with violence in currently rarely attempt to say its bad or depict it as bad outside of extremely shallow lip service, and many are extremely violent as well as sanitised. thats much more harmful and normalising. tlou2 could absolutely bungle things entirely and it is druckman, but acting like the very concept of using realistic violence to make the point that violence is bad is flawed is ludicrous. Stux fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Jun 10, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 14:08
|
|
|
you don't need true-to-life blood dripping or dog burning to give violence weight, you just need halfway decent writing
Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jun 10, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 14:26
|
|
|
but depicting violence realistically is still a legitimate way to make that point, it is not a flaw in and of itself for a piece of media to choose make a point about violence through the use of violence. the execution and the context are what determine if it was successful or not at doing that, but the method doesnt immediately make something wrong for the attempt. tlou2 could absolutely fall flat on its face and be completely dumb with how it uses it and that still would not make the concept itself wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 14:33
|
|
|
who is saying this if they're saying it based solely on Druckmann's interviews I can't really blame them
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 14:43
|
|
|
there's a distasteful 'have your cake and eat it too' aspect to bragging about the new innovations in how realistic you've made your virtual murders look while still trying to push a hack 'violence bad' theme to keep a face of respectability like, say what you will about the uncomfortable violence in modern MK games (and there's plenty to say there), at least ed boon isn't trying to tell me it's actually really deep underneath the blood and guts
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 14:51
|
|
|
to me what cod puts out every year is 100x more distasteful than any attempt to show how violence is often gross and not fun
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:01
|
|
|
nobody said CoD is tasteful
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:04
|
|
|
Every character will be a unlikable rear end in a top hat, there will be extreme levels of gore and violence. The world is full of despair and a bleak setting where men was the monster all along and the message will be violence is bad and with revenge no one wins. Neil Druckman is Garth Ennis??
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:09
|
|
|
Stux posted:making the violence visceral and upsetting is how you make the violence bad. sanitising it is how other games make what would otherwise be pretty awful violence fun and "enjoyable" If violence is bad, why make a 30h ultra realistic murder simulator in the first place?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
Zeta Acosta posted:Every character will be a unlikable rear end in a top hat, there will be extreme levels of gore and violence. The world is full of despair and a bleak setting where men was the monster all along and the message will be violence is bad and with revenge no one wins. ellie murdering the last vita owner is even a kinda sorta ennis-y metajoke
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:13
|
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:If violence is bad, why make a 30h ultra realistic murder simulator in the first place? I mean, the counterargument, every single time, boils down to “this offends my sensibilities and I think it shouldn’t be made”. It’s like we’ve secretly found some Tipper Gore fanclub and they all feel compelled to say the exact same fuckin thing constantly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:21
|
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:If violence is bad, why make a 30h ultra realistic murder simulator in the first place? if war is bad, why make a film showing the horrors of war in the first place? like what even is this argument, its nonsense. this is the exact problem, we are jumping from "i dont like this and dont want to see it" to "and so it literally shouldnt exist" and it isnt tlou2 related at all, just blanketed at all violence, even if something is making the point that the violence is bad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:28
|
|
|
what is meant to be compelling about TLoU2's lovingly rendered dog bloods and etc. in the context of "violence is bad"
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:33
|
|
|
Hwurmp posted:what is meant to be compelling about TLoU2's lovingly rendered dog bloods and etc. in the context of "violence is bad" The first game was a horror game. It sounds pretty horror to get cornered and have to kill dogs or people and have them react more realistically. There will presumably be a story running in tandem with the animations, somewhat like a film, that will attempt to add some more weight to the PCs activities.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:37
|
|
|
There's a tension in using video games to explore themes condemning violence, especially an action game where you're at least subtly encouraged to kill people on a fairly regular basis. On the one hand, the game can depict the actual violence as horrifying, messy, painful, and traumatizing; on the other, it's still a mass-market game and presumably well-made, so actually executing that violence is likely to be an engaging, maybe even thrilling act. The interactivity makes it a different sort of thing than a movie depicting horrifying violence in order to condemn it. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, or wrong. In fact, that tension can be worth exploring in and of itself. If doing the violence "feels good" from a mechanical gameplay standpoint, but is depicted in a way that makes you also feel bad because of the effects and the aftermath of your violence, that's a potentially interesting conflict to explore. I'm not a game reviewer so I haven't played it yet myself, and it'll be a while before I feel like I want to play it, I'm sure, so I can't at all comment on how successful that is. But that conflict existing doesn't automatically invalidate the game's message about violence and, depending on the execution, can potentially even enhance it. I have no idea if it works or not, but it's not something I think should be dismissed outright.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:38
|
|
|
Nothing will ever top MGS3 for "oh god what have I done" video game murder repercussions
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:39
|
|
|
Stux posted:if war is bad, why make a film showing the horrors of war in the first place? It just seems hypocritical to me to craft a AAA goreporn videogame where you're encouraged to murder people and burn dogs alive as a tool to convey that... violence is wrong. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:43
|
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:It just seems hypocritical to me to craft a AAA goreporn videogame where you're encouraged to murder people and burn dogs alive as a tool to convey that... violence is wrong. Does it encourage you to do that? Does the paperclip man come on screen and tell you to burn the dogs? Burning dogs and murdering people sounds like a situation where you hosed up very badly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:45
|
|
|
real bravery and commitment to the realities of violence would be making every video game man you kill defecate once they're dead
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:46
|
|
|
If it requires the player to kill people to advance it shouldn't get to say "oh by the way violence is bad" at the end. Same issue i had with spec ops, where you literally had to commit war crimes to continue and then went "war crimes are bad". Giving someone the option and chastising them for choosing the violent one is far more effective than making you do it and going "nonono, you silly goose".
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:46
|
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:It just seems hypocritical to me to craft a AAA goreporn videogame where you're encouraged to murder people and burn dogs alive as a tool to convey that... violence is wrong. making it upsetting to kill people is explicitly discouraging you from doing it whereever possible. making it sanitised and distanced is encouraging you to engage in the violence. dogstile posted:If it requires the player to kill people to advance it shouldn't get to say "oh by the way violence is bad" at the end. Same issue i had with spec ops, where you literally had to commit war crimes to continue and then went "war crimes are bad". no, spec ops wouldnt be better if it was an in game choice thats the entire point lmao
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:49
|
|
|
I thought the first game did well with the violence being really nasty to the point that I wanted to avoid it for reasons beyond playing on survivor. Then the multiplayer component confused me because stomping people's jaws apart is how you win the game and it made me feel unwell. Thusly, Druckman is a land of contrasts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:52
|
|
|
Is there a diffrence between chasitising the player and making violence unpleasant to engage in? i dunno, maybe a video game isnt the best medium to communicate about violence bad, but most anti-war films sorta gently caress up and make the war bit one of the most exciting parts, so its working in an old tradtition at least
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:53
|
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:It just seems hypocritical to me to craft a AAA goreporn videogame where you're encouraged to murder people and burn dogs alive as a tool to convey that... violence is wrong. Or maybe exploring that conflict is the point. Again, I haven't played it and I have no idea if it's going to be any good at doing that, but it's not automatically wrong to make violence both an attractive option (because it feels mechanically good to do) and repulsive (because the effects of your actions are horrific). That tension can be worth exploring from a thematic standpoint.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:53
|
|
|
JBP posted:Does it encourage you to do that? Does the paperclip man come on screen and tell you to burn the dogs? Burning dogs and murdering people sounds like a situation where you hosed up very badly. If it's anything like the first game there are going to be a ton of areas that will be impossible to stealth through
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:54
|
|
|
perhaps the story could feature a villain who forces his band of survivors to look upon horrific acts and attempt to recreate them, all day, every day, all for mere scraps of food for their families and then he could turn to the camera and say "we made Uncharted lol"
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:56
|
|
|
if the bulk of your video game mechanics are ones I'm not 'supposed' to engage with i might as well skip the middle man and not engage with the game at all
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:57
|
|
|
JBP posted:Does it encourage you to do that? Does the paperclip man come on screen and tell you to burn the dogs? Burning dogs and murdering people sounds like a situation where you hosed up very badly. Let's not pretend that this is not a third person shooter where shooting dudes is enjoyable. Like Harrow mentioned earlier the message & themes of the game are at odds with its gameplay and I don't think it can be satisfyingly resolved unless you give players more tools than "murder" and "stealth". dogstile posted:If it requires the player to kill people to advance it shouldn't get to say "oh by the way violence is bad" at the end. Same issue i had with spec ops, where you literally had to commit war crimes to continue and then went "war crimes are bad". Yeah pretty much. When I played Spec Ops I just felt like the game was trying to talk to someone else.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 15:59
|
|
|
dogstile posted:If it requires the player to kill people to advance it shouldn't get to say "oh by the way violence is bad" at the end. Same issue i had with spec ops, where you literally had to commit war crimes to continue and then went "war crimes are bad". I don't know if I'd agree, but I tend to approach video games like an actor approaching a part they got. You've got some flexibility in how you play it, but complete freedom isn't how you make a story work. If you want to tell a bleak story, the player (or at least their character) has to do some bleak things for it to hit right.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:06
|
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:Let's not pretend that this is not a third person shooter where shooting dudes is enjoyable. Like Harrow mentioned earlier the message & themes of the game are at odds with its gameplay and I don't think it can be satisfyingly resolved unless you give players more tools than "murder" and "stealth". how do you misread what harrow said so badly spec ops is specifically effective because it presents the player with a meta choice of if you dont want to do the very bad thing, stop playing. forcing you to do the bad thing and then deal with the repercussions is exactly why it works. its utilising its medium extremely effectively to make its point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:06
|
|
|
To be clear I don't think that the themes and the gameplay are necessarily "at odds" in a bad way so much as they create tension--which is not automatically a bad thing or a weakness in a story. Creating conflicting emotions in a player can be a worthwhile thematic aim. But also I tend to view games like The Last of Us or God of War--these dramatic, cinematic action games with a strongly-defined player character--as not necessarily wanting you to see the character you control as literally you, or your avatar. Like I don't think you're supposed to feel like Kratos is you in God of War, or Joel in TLoU1 is you or Ellie in TLoU2 is you. They're the protagonists in their stories and you are asked to identify with their POV by controlling them in gameplay, but having less distance between the audience and protagonist doesn't necessarily mean the audience is the protagonist. You're playing as Ellie, not as an avatar of yourself who looks like Ellie in the game, so the lack of like a diplomatic option or something isn't necessarily a failing. That's not what Ellie would do, so that option isn't there. In other words I think the more interesting or pertinent question here is not "how do you feel about this violence that you are choosing to do?" but rather "how do you feel about this violence that Ellie is choosing to do?" You're asked to get very close to Ellie's POV, but she's not just a player avatar, if that makes sense. She's a character in her own right, and the situations her choices put her into often result in violence. You can influence how she navigates these situations in many cases, but like others I would be very surprised if every single encounter could be stealthed through without ever killing anyone--I don't expect that at all, and I also don't think that's necessarily wrong or invalidates the theme.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:08
|
|
|
Stux posted:how do you misread what harrow said so badly You ever think that "hey, don't play this game" is a bad way to get people who like to play games to agree with you? Writers were just jerking themselves off E: Its worse because the rest of the game actually gives you choices but not that one part! dogstile fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jun 10, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:10
|
|
|
between the developer who created a system to add more porn to the torture porn game on his free time and druckmann who watched lynching videos on his youth there are some really sick puppies at naughty dog
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:19
|
|
|
dogstile posted:You ever think that "hey, don't play this game" is a bad way to get people who like to play games to agree with you? no, its a perfectly viable approach. its using the fact that a game is inherently an audience participating medium to help further its points. making a game that is purposefully player hostile either through mechanics or story or both is a useful and important tool. in spec ops the character you are controlling is going to take that action because that is their character and motivation in that moment, you are not the character. you are the audience. your choice is if you want to follow this characters story now that he is making an awful choice, and because its a game and not a film the fact that you while seperate are an active participant adds further weight to it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:19
|
|
|
Zeta Acosta posted:between the developer who created a system to add more porn to the torture porn game on his free time and druckmann who watched lynching videos on his youth there are some really sick puppies at naughty dog 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:22
|
|
|
I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that games do not have to be "fun" to be worth making or worth playing. Like any media, negative emotions are just as valid to try to evoke in the audience as positive ones, or even just conflicted emotions. Stories can be a way to explore a huge range of emotions and I don't think games need to be an exception to that. And yes, even the conflict between "doing the violence is fun because of good gameplay but also feels lovely because of the way the effects are depicted" is valid. I'd never tell someone they have to like it or that there's something wrong with them for avoiding those pieces of media--like I've pointed out before, I'll be avoiding TLoU2 until I'm in a mental state where I'd be able to engage with it better, if I play it at all--but that doesn't mean it's a kind of thing that shouldn't exist or isn't worth trying to make.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:24
|
|
|
No SA poster ever watched questionable content in their youth. Actually that's not a good argument re sick puppies, I withdraw my statement.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:24
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that games do not have to be "fun" to be worth making or worth playing. Like any media, negative emotions are just as valid to try to evoke in the audience as positive ones, or even just conflicted emotions. fun and engaging arent the same. a broken piece of poo poo like vtmrb was totally unplayable on release but the story, characters and setting were good enough that the game baceme a cult classic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 23:49 |
|
|
I should also point out that my statements about what the game is trying to do (and games in general not needing to be fun) are in no way a defense of the way Naughty Dog went about making the game. Obviously, forcing your employees to watch horrific things and recreate them is an extremely lovely thing to do and Druckmann and the rest of the Naughty Dog leadership should be condemned for that and not be so loving proud of it. But that's a separate conversation from "is the game automatically bad because of its themes."
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2020 16:27
|
|