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Pope Hilarius posted:I'm a iOS contractor in my first year of professional work earning $48/hr in a high CoL city. My company offered to buy out of my middleman and hire me full time. They were paying more than ~$96k to the company you contract for, so why ask for less than $96k?
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Jun 11, 2020 20:09
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Pope Hilarius posted:I'm a iOS contractor in my first year of professional work earning $48/hr in a high CoL city. My company offered to buy out of my middleman and hire me full time. Ask for $100,000 + ($20K * colaSF) where colaSF is the ratio of your city’s CoL to SF’s.
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Jun 11, 2020 20:17
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Pope Hilarius posted:Should I just split the difference and ask for like $75k? no ask for more, let them bump you down Jose Valasquez posted:They were paying more than ~$96k to the company you contract for, so why ask for less than $96k?
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Jun 11, 2020 20:39
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I really struggled with asking for (what felt like) a big salary at my first few jobs. I had the exact same way of thinking - "maybe I should just ask for less and make it easier for everybody". I was also super nervous when actually discussing salary with managers or recruiters. At some point I decided to just push through the nerves and started asking for much more than what I would be happy with, and it was the best thing I ever did. Yes, some recruiters will immediately tell me that I'm asking for much more than they expected, but every year I run into one or two companies that don't even try to negotiate my "more than what I really want" requests and just make me a crazy offer. If I had been asking for what I thought my market value was for the past ~4 years, my salary would probably be about half of what it is now.
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Jun 11, 2020 21:03
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Pope Hilarius posted:I'm a iOS contractor in my first year of professional work earning $48/hr in a high CoL city. My company offered to buy out of my middleman and hire me full time. What city? 75k is low for most of the US, and would be drastically below market rate in most of the northeast.
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Jun 11, 2020 21:31
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Pope Hilarius posted:I'm a iOS contractor in my first year of professional work earning $48/hr in a high CoL city. My company offered to buy out of my middleman and hire me full time. Can you let them make the first offer? It would be better to see what they are gonna anchor at rather than you make that first step
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Jun 11, 2020 22:05
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Always try to get them to name a number first. If that absolutely fails, shoot for the moon. I've negotiated salaries successfully multiple times by asking for much, much higher than I actually would be happy with and letting the company work down. I've always ended up with more than I expected.
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Jun 12, 2020 04:31
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Echoing everyone else, but you should base your ask around market rate for an iOS developer with a year of experience, not based on your previous salary. Depending on where you are in the hiring process, one way to attempt to get them to name a number first so you don't lowball yourself is to ask something like "what is the salary range for this position?" Otherwise, do some research into market rate for your area, then ask for more than that so you can work down from there. In some cities even 96k would be well below market value, so given that you mentioned a high CoL city, I'm thinking your initial ask should be at least 120k (but again, try to do some research).
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Jun 12, 2020 19:45
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Does anybody have any advice for the optimal testing framework I should learn? My default choice would be Jest since I mainly do React and I used it for like a week in boot camp, but if there's a more broadly marketable one I would prefer that I think. Also I would not mind a suggestion for a useful framework to apply Python since rn I only use it to do algorithms but I have never actually written an app or site or server with it anything with it lol
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Jun 13, 2020 00:14
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Pope Hilarius posted:I'm a iOS contractor in my first year of professional work earning $48/hr in a high CoL city. My company offered to buy out of my middleman and hire me full time. Not piling on, but the W2/1099 only makes sense if you are a 1099 independent contractor. You said there's a middle man, so the 1000 division doesn't make sense anymore, you're already a W-2 employee. If you are making $48/hr then your company is paying probably $75 an hour for you. If you really want to split the difference, split it between 96k and 150k, but honestly you should probably just ask for the 150k.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:20
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Does anybody have any advice for the optimal testing framework I should learn? My default choice would be Jest since I mainly do React and I used it for like a week in boot camp, but if there's a more broadly marketable one I would prefer that I think. Also I would not mind a suggestion for a useful framework to apply Python since rn I only use it to do algorithms but I have never actually written an app or site or server with it anything with it lol I have found you're usually better off using whatever testing framework comes bundled with whatever framework you're using, or whatever everybody else uses - e.g. if you're doing angular, use whatever comes with angular, if you're doing react, use whatever comes with react. I have found that having preferences about test frameworks is a bigger pain in the rear end than just using whatever is there.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:41
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Also I would not mind a suggestion for a useful framework to apply Python since rn I only use it to do algorithms but I have never actually written an app or site or server with it anything with it lol I haven't kept up to date with Python for a couple years, but Flask (or Django) for a REST framework and Pytest + maybe Tox for tests?
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Jun 13, 2020 01:37
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Does anybody have any advice for the optimal testing framework I should learn? My default choice would be Jest since I mainly do React and I used it for like a week in boot camp, but if there's a more broadly marketable one I would prefer that I think. Also I would not mind a suggestion for a useful framework to apply Python since rn I only use it to do algorithms but I have never actually written an app or site or server with it anything with it lol Jest + React Testing Library for unit tests, Cypress for integration. I’ve been really happy with this setup. Feel free to ask me anything about either.
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Jun 13, 2020 02:35
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Thanks all, think I'm definitely gonna go with Jest then, and probably gently caress around with Flask too since I feel like I've seen it a lot in postings. The advice is v appreciated
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Jun 13, 2020 03:09
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Pope Hilarius posted:I'm a iOS contractor in my first year of professional work earning $48/hr in a high CoL city. My company offered to buy out of my middleman and hire me full time. $48/hr is ~96k a year. I'd expect the company will pay you more. Otherwise, why would you take the position?
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Jun 13, 2020 19:28
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Does anyone have any tips for asking for a raise? I'm just over 7 months into a junior position (my first job out of Uni) and I love working at my company but I feel like I'm being underpaid. I'm in a major city in the UK and all my other coursemates started on £25k+ and I'm on £20k. Granted they're in slightly different fields but it still seems a bit off. Part of me doesn't wanna rock the boat or risk a job I'm really enjoying but at the same time I want to start repaying my student loans and (hopefully) saving to get my first house. Supposedly my company does annual salary reviews so my plan it to maybe wait until I've worked there for a year and then at least that way if they say no I have a year of experience under my belt to shop around. My other issue is that I'm not really sure how much to be asking for. I know the UK is a lot lower than other places for programming wages.
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Jun 14, 2020 15:37
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Is that 20k GBP a year? Granted I know nothing of UK wages, but that's uh, 2/3 per hour of what I make part-time working the warehouse in a Danish IKEA.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:21
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-Anders posted:Is that 20k GBP a year? Granted I know nothing of UK wages, but that's uh, 2/3 per hour of what I make part-time working the warehouse in a Danish IKEA. It is, yeah. A lot of the junior positions I saw were £18-25k a year here
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Jun 14, 2020 18:57
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101 posted:Does anyone have any tips for asking for a raise? I'd say you need 2 things when entering your boss' office. 1. Specific wins you've been a part of during those 7 months. For example, what technical challenges did you overcome, how did you communicate between teams to get something done, etc and things like that 2. Stats on other salaries in your area and in your position, so you can prove you're being underpaid.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:06
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Grump posted:I'd say you need 2 things when entering your boss' office. 1. That first one seems obvious in hindsight. I knew I wanted to talk myself up but having a mental checklist of all the things I've been a big part of and how I've grown seems like good advice. 2. I've wanted to do this but my issue has been that a lot of the jobs I've seen don't list a wage. Indeed lists the national average for a non-junior iOS developer at £52k a year so I feel like asking for £30k based on that wouldn't be ridiculous right? Especially after ~1 year of proving myself. My line manager has consistently said he's happy with my work as progress and would help me move up from junior once I've been there for 1.5-2 years so that seems like another feather in my cap for negotiating. I guess I just feel a bit clueless as to what the whole procedure will be like. I've never asked for a raise anywhere before. Granted this is my first non part-time job
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Jun 14, 2020 19:18
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It also would be a really good idea to take a look at the negotiation thread. Like Grump recommended, those are solid pieces of info to negotiate with but there's the flip side that they really don't have to pay you more. It wouldn't hurt to dip a toe in the water and see if you could find a better situation elsewhere. I had a similar situation where I was (I'm in the US but not in a major tech hub) where I found out I was 10k under my similar band and start date coworkers. A promotion got me fixed up more but honestly I was always behind them no matter what (for the ones that were good and getting promoted) and it wasn't until I left that I jumped my salary forward.
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Jun 15, 2020 00:42
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Some employers want to spend money to get the best people, and others want to spend as little money as possible to get the work done. If you're working for the second type, asking for a raise isn't likely to go far.
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Jun 15, 2020 01:00
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ultrafilter posted:Some employers want to spend money to get the best people, and others want to spend as little money as possible to get the work done. If you're working for the second type, asking for a raise isn't likely to go far. Yeah this The only time I asked for and successfully got a big fat raise, I'd been outgunning the two seniors in my department, as a junior. I'd also introduced next gen technology and improved process flows to cut out a bunch of inefficiencies Even if your company is largely the first one, there's some companies who hire juniors and expect to work them like dogs for the first year until either they quit or get promoted for not-junior £20k seems awfully low though, I was making that working part time scooping popcorn, it certainly can't hurt. £20k seems like what you'd get as an ex-convict in a work-release program. I don't know why the UK pays total shite for tech workers. I'd prove the value you provide to the company, average working pay for a junior is at least double that, and then start looking for jobs when they say "we'll review your performance at the one year mark". Hopefully you'll have found something else by then. If not maybe they'll come back with a halfway reasonable offer. Consider going to Berlin or whatever tech center pays reasonable. I'd start off asking for £35 and negotiate down to £28 if you absolutely have to
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Jun 15, 2020 09:09
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I have people who work for me in the US and UK, the salaries and market are not comparable, so for those outside that area be a little careful on what numbers you throw out. I'd agree with chatting with your manager first. In general its pretty rare to give someone a raise in the first 7 months (They'd need to really be blowing socks off). It sounds reasonable that you are not at market rate based on your mates but lots of things might affect that. Some companies start people low and give big raises, but I wouldn't assume that. Talk with your manager and if possible get something in writing. But also be aware they may have raises/adjustments frozen due to Covid, in general its a bad time to be asking for more money. The other route is start looking around. You say you love your job but you need to start thinking about what
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Jun 15, 2020 15:47
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Yeah, asking for a raise at the 7 month mark is going to get you one of two reactions: - No. - No, we'll talk about it at your one-year review. And it varies from company to company, but it's unusual to get big raises if you're paid drastically below market rate. Trust me, they know what the market rate is, paying you less than that is not an accident.
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Jun 15, 2020 16:22
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Shirec posted:It also would be a really good idea to take a look at the negotiation thread Thanks. I'll give it a look. ultrafilter posted:Some employers want to spend money to get the best people, and others want to spend as little money as possible to get the work done. If you're working for the second type, asking for a raise isn't likely to go far. I guess I'll see. If it is the second I'll be jumping ship before long Hadlock posted:I don't know why the UK pays total shite for tech workers. I'd prove the value you provide to the company, average working pay for a junior is at least double that, and then start looking for jobs when they say "we'll review your performance at the one year mark". Hopefully you'll have found something else by then. If not maybe they'll come back with a halfway reasonable offer. Do you mean in the UK or like globally? Cause if it's the former I'd love to see that data so I can point it out Hadlock posted:Consider going to Berlin or whatever tech center pays reasonable. Emigrating somewhere has been a goal of mine since before I even got into tech and seeing the wages I could earn elsewhere certainly make the seem appetising. Hadlock posted:I'd start off asking for £35 and negotiate down to £28 if you absolutely have to I feel like I'd get laughed out of the room asking for a £15k raise in the same position Lockback posted:I have people who work for me in the US and UK, the salaries and market are not comparable, so for those outside that area be a little careful on what numbers you throw out. New Yorp New Yorp posted:Yeah, asking for a raise at the 7 month mark is going to get you one of two reactions: Yeah I was planning on waiting for the one year mark. Just wanted some advice to think over until then. The whole global pandemic and looming financial crash isn't really helping me out
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Jun 15, 2020 16:52
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101 posted:1. That first one seems obvious in hindsight. I knew I wanted to talk myself up but having a mental checklist of all the things I've been a big part of and how I've grown seems like good advice. I've never been able to negotiate a larger raise than what was coming at year end review without finding another job and getting counter-offered. The problem is that if you get a counter-offer, you're better off just going to the new job. So you may as well skip the raise negotiation altogether and just bounce.
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Jun 15, 2020 16:56
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:The problem is that if you get a counter-offer, you're better off just going to the new job. To expand on that, think of it like this: They were going to offer you X. That's what they thought you were worth. You come and say "I'm going to leave because I can make X+Y somewhere else." They sigh and offer you X+Y to keep you. That doesn't mean they suddenly value you at X+Y, it means they decided to overpay you by their standards because it's better to keep you than lose you... for now. You've effectively made a threat at that point, and they capitulated. Some managers may even see it as an adversarial relationship going forward and try to sabotage you. So you take the offer, stick around another year. It's raise time again. They say "Well, we just raised your salary by an large amount last year, so you get minimal/no raise this year." At the other company, they'd just give you a normal raise. So you're back to being behind. It's not always so cut and dry; sometimes you may really like the company and the manager legitimately values you at X+Y, but their hands are tied because of budget or standard pay-scale, so a threat of leaving is the only way to get them to make an exception. But in general, accepting a counter-offer is a bad move.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:22
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^^ I don't agree with this because I've definitely hired people at X and then was surprised that they were so much better than expected, so x+y is still a good deal and not at all a negative. You can work with management to get an adjustment, but keep in mind managers just can't snap their fingers and change salary. It all starts with your relationship with your manager. You should be able to have these kinds of conversations without it being as adversarial as that. If you can't, then yeah, you should leave. But there are many decent managers who can have adult conversations about salary without it being a threat.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:54
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101 posted:Yeah I was planning on waiting for the one year mark. Just wanted some advice to think over until then. That's why it's just a good idea to look at the job market. If nothing is there, you can stay put. But, you may get a great offer and find a place that's paying you better. No one has to know you are putting feelers out
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Jun 15, 2020 18:04
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101 posted:
1 check Glassdoor for rough comparisons. In my area those listings are typically low by 15k. $20k for a junior developer is lower than what we were paying in Bulgaria, which I'm sure is a fine country, but they have a very low COL. Especially if your "coursework" involves a recognized degree of some kind 2 once you get 2 years under your belt start applying to bay area companies, an early stage might sponsor your visa just to get someone in the office with an accent to help hire talent. I've seen weirder things 3 £15k is probably your boss' quarterly bonus. It's not a lot to the company, even if they won't tell you that. If you're punching above your weight at work, and active in meetings without too many wrong opinions, asking for a big raise now will put you on their radar for a larger than average raise the following year. Remember: nobody else is advertising your skills internally, and if nobody's advertising, nobody's gonna be buying. It loving destroys my soul to be a self-advocate for myself, but, delivering projects on time is only half the battle of getting paid more; you need to ask for what you think you're worth to get the point across, and show self confidence. Ask for more money than you deserve, so you have room to back down in negotiations to where you should be. If you ask for a £5k bump, you're gonna end up with £800.00 extra for the whole year, and now you've set the expectation that you'll work for less. If you ask for £11k, that signals you want to settle for 10, and they might counter with 5, and you settle on 8. Tldr go see negotiations thread When I started at one company I got them to come up $17k Another company pegged me at what I told them my minimum was (mistake) but the following year they bumped me up to where I wanted to be, about $13k higher Third company came up $20k plus generous options plus 4 day a week wfh (not as good now, but just wait 12 months when everyone else is in the office) Negotiation thread is a good resource All that said, at the 1 year mark start planning on where to go next, it's always going to be a struggle to get fairly compensated where you're at now Hadlock fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jun 15, 2020 |
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Jun 15, 2020 21:20
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recruiter called, wants me to interview at some place tomorrow. 6mo contract to hire, but the pay is like $1/hr more than my current contract rate. why would i even bother with something like this? i want to reply back it's not worth it. also the conversion rate she quoted was 30k less than what my goal is to be making in 6mo. how do conversions rates work? after the 6mo contract is up, say they want to convert to fte, is there an opportunity to renegotiate? i like my job right now, its currently wfh full time due to the virus and i think i want my next position to be fully remote.
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Jun 17, 2020 16:19
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Are there opportunities to make what you're targeting in six months?
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Jun 17, 2020 16:31
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I think so. I'm in a low col area and I'm going to start targeting remote work to get a higher number relative to my area. I wasn't looking currently and this recruiter had called me a month ago because she found my name however recruiters find names. I'm not in any rush
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Jun 17, 2020 16:45
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Shirec posted:That's why it's just a good idea to look at the job market. If nothing is there, you can stay put. But, you may get a great offer and find a place that's paying you better. No one has to know you are putting feelers out There's a position at a company I would really love to work at that would probably pay me £30-35k easy if I get the job. I've put off applying cause it looks bad to be jumping ship (or just looking to) after only 7-8 months doesn't it? Hadlock posted:1 check Glassdoor for rough comparisons. In my area those listings are typically low by 15k. $20k for a junior developer is lower than what we were paying in Bulgaria, which I'm sure is a fine country, but they have a very low COL. Especially if your "coursework" involves a recognized degree of some kind Yeah I definitely think I'm being underpaid Hadlock posted:2 once you get 2 years under your belt start applying to bay area companies, an early stage might sponsor your visa just to get someone in the office with an accent to help hire talent. I've seen weirder things I really would not want to emigrate to the US, and especially not SF... Lockback posted:^^ I don't agree with this because I've definitely hired people at X and then was surprised that they were so much better than expected, so x+y is still a good deal and not at all a negative. You can work with management to get an adjustment, but keep in mind managers just can't snap their fingers and change salary. Hadlock posted:All that said, at the 1 year mark start planning on where to go next, it's always going to be a struggle to get fairly compensated where you're at now So waiting until at least a year and feeling out how those conversations go seems like the best play?
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Jun 17, 2020 22:07
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101 posted:There's a position at a company I would really love to work at that would probably pay me £30-35k easy if I get the job. I've put off applying cause it looks bad to be jumping ship (or just looking to) after only 7-8 months doesn't it? Not necessarily. If they interview you, it means they don't care. Have a good professional sounding reason and just stick to that. It's only really a problem when it's a pattern. Sometimes a person and a company don't gel, and demand is high enough for devs that they can't be precious about that kind of thing. Source: I left my first dev job after 9 months (you can look at my post history in this thread as to why). Also to your last point, it cannot harm you at all to look right now. The only downside is interviewing is tiring and sucks to prep for, but you are losing out on potential money by not looking.
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Jun 17, 2020 22:18
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Start interviewing regularly now, it doesn't matter how much experience you have. From now on you're letting the interviewing business turn you down instead of discounting yourself before trying. We don't have a professional body with rigid post-qualification experience bands. If you can do the job, you can do the job. I know far more developers who have screwed over their lifetime earnings by not moving jobs while being underpaid than moving "too soon".
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Jun 18, 2020 09:36
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barkbell posted:recruiter called, wants me to interview at some place tomorrow. 6mo contract to hire, but the pay is like $1/hr more than my current contract rate. why would i even bother with something like this? i want to reply back it's not worth it. also the conversion rate she quoted was 30k less than what my goal is to be making in 6mo. how do conversions rates work? after the 6mo contract is up, say they want to convert to fte, is there an opportunity to renegotiate? i like my job right now, its currently wfh full time due to the virus and i think i want my next position to be fully remote. Unless the pay is great or the work incredibly compelling, there is no reason for you to take a contract-to-hire gig. $1 an hour more is ~$160 a month, or about $2k a year before taxes. You're risking being unemployed in 6 months with an extra ~$1k in your pocket in an economy that's shaping up to not be particularly strong. A low but non-zero percentage of the time, that can be negotiated. Ask the recruiter if they'll consider full time if you're otherwise interested in the job, but my personal take is to be conservative with job changes right now.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:00
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barkbell posted:how do conversions rates work? after the 6mo contract is up, say they want to convert to fte, is there an opportunity to renegotiate? If they are telling you the conversion rate right now that is the conversion rate. Some negotiation might be possible if they love you but they are telling you that number now for a reason. If you want to negotiate a better conversion rate, negotiate it before you take the contracting job. Generally agreeing this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if you like your current job.
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Jun 18, 2020 14:29
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I think I'll do the interview just for some interview practice but tell the recruiter I'm not interested afterwards. I'd really like to get a job doing more typescript because for some reason I enjoy functional stuff. Currently doing Java back end, TS front end web apps right now. Most of the city is .net with react for that kind of work. I pretty much only know about LinkedIn and searching for remote node.js jobs. Are there any good places to look for remote work?
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Jun 18, 2020 15:59
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