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Beefeater1980 posted:Not to be too flippant about the achievements of the anarcho-syndicalists in Catalonia and Aragon, but they lost. While the productive aspect might have been great, politically and militarily they were outcompeted by statist powers. The anarchists were literally rounded up and shot by their socialist and republican "allies" in order to obtain support from the USSR, op.
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Jun 12, 2020 18:58
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communism bitch posted:The anarchists were literally rounded up and shot by their socialist and republican "allies" in order to obtain support from the USSR, op. I mean, that doesn't sound like winning to me. They got killed by people who could organise a coup better than they could defend against it. That's not saying that organising a coup to murder anarchists is a good thing, it's saying that the minimum level for viability of an organisation is being able to prevent your "allies" from couping you.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:02
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This is why the left are all losers - we don't have neat and tidy rooms with union jack duvet covers: https://twitter.com/BritishDean/status/1271382533465354243?s=20
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Jun 12, 2020 19:05
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Beefeater1980 posted:I mean, that doesn't sound like winning to me. They got killed by people who could organise a coup better than they could defend against it. That's not saying that organising a coup to murder anarchists is a good thing, it's saying that the minimum level for viability of an organisation is being able to prevent your "allies" from couping you.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:07
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I'm genuinely loving amazed lol "those people got executed; their theory is antiquated"
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Jun 12, 2020 19:09
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:This is why the left are all losers - we don't have neat and tidy rooms with union jack duvet covers: account created in the last two weeks, it reeks of a deep cover parody
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Jun 12, 2020 19:11
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communism bitch posted:If prior success is the only measure of value then surely free market capitalism - relentlessly successful by its own twisted internal logic - is the only thing for you. I don't really think that follows from a post about how capitalism obviously doesn't work but the replacement needs to be something that does, probably built on anarchist principles? The example you gave shows that anarchist societies can organise at scale but not across the whole spectrum of activies of a state, leaving them susceptible to coups. That's a fail state because there is no point building a society that gets knocked over easily. So any future anarchist society needs to have an answer to 'but what if states try to coup you?' E: Did not expect to spend my Friday night arguing on the Internet about the Spanish Civil War but why not.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:13
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https://twitter.com/___knighty/status/1271329539541495811?s=20 My favourite genre of video: Racists getting ktfo. I mean, It'd be better if the racists didn't exist in the first place, but if they're at least getting sparked out for it then it's a step in the right direction.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:14
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communism bitch posted:The anarcho-syndicalist trade unions that organised production and distribution in revolutionary Catalonia and Aragon consisted of over 100,000 members, to say nothing of the local town and village cooperatives. Your whole post is, interestingly, an almost textbook assertion of anarchist principles, minus the organisational elements. You're restating a lot of points articulated by people like Kropotkin, and Proudhon and I can't tell if you're doing so consciously or not. Jedit posted:In Greek it's "brekekex", apparently. 
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Jun 12, 2020 19:14
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After the absolute rickets I dropped this morning, lunchtime and into late this afternoon on the same printer, I am retiring from being thread printer fondler for the time being
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Jun 12, 2020 19:18
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Thanks for the cheering and/or sympathetic responses guys. While I'm not gonna avoid this forum (which these days is my sole source of news, other than a brief scan of the guardian in the morning) I have deleted Facebook, which I've been meaning to do for a while. Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed the slow but noticeable infiltration of local FB groups (e.g. buying and selling groups) by trolls and/or bots. It creeps me the gently caress out, as since lockdown started these previously tame and civil groups have started tearing each other apart over first, social distancing, and, more recently, racism / anti racism. The reason it creeps me out is because the fights are usually instigated by people with hitherto very inactive profiles other than the occasional racist / anti racist post every year or two. I figure at least some of these people must be bots, but if so, who's responsible for them, and why? The conspiracy theorist in me feels like it's a Russian/Chinese /NK tactic to sow discord in the UK, but that just seems so tin foilly...
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Jun 12, 2020 19:20
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The Perfect Element posted:Thanks for the cheering and/or sympathetic responses guys. I would imagine a fair amount of people are spending more time indoors now and are bored out of their mind. Arguing with strangers on facebook is one way of getting human contact, I suppose?
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Jun 12, 2020 19:22
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:account created in the last two weeks, it reeks of a deep cover parody Christ I hope not, I dunked on his tweet and did numbers, I don't want to have accidentally stolen valor 
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Jun 12, 2020 19:25
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Beefeater1980 posted:I don't really think that follows from a post about how capitalism obviously doesn't work but the replacement needs to be something that does, probably built on anarchist principles?
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Jun 12, 2020 19:26
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The Internet gamifies discourse and lets people slag each other off without consequence. Log on, post a racism, get a couple of dopamine hits from the Likes, log off. Sometimes there's no deeper meaning beyond a bored twat wanting a giggle.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:27
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Ms Adequate posted:Christ I hope not, I dunked on his tweet and did numbers, I don't want to have accidentally stolen valor it just looks... I dunno, off. Like it's trying too hard
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Jun 12, 2020 19:32
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Guavanaut posted:but I'm not sure how they can best remain viable within or near states
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Jun 12, 2020 19:39
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communism bitch posted:It is literally impossible to conceive of any human organisation that isn't susceptible to betrayal or violent overthrow. Not one. At all. Ever. OK, that's a good point and I think makes an important distinction. One of two things is true: 1 - The anarchist collective in the Spanish Civil War failed because of fatal structural flaws. 2 - They didn't have fatal structural flaws but had minor structural flaws that could be exploited by other people to destroy them. If this is true then if you roll the dice enough times you'll eventually get a situation where that doesn't happen immediately. The reason I think it's probably 1 isn't that this single incidence of an anarchist experiment happened to get murdered so there's no need to ever think about it again, because of this one time. It's that for every instance I can find, states are still around as independent polities and anarchist collectives either got murdered or exist within the protection of a state.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:39
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WhatEvil posted:https://twitter.com/___knighty/status/1271329539541495811?s=20 Like the one with the guy in Whitechapel throwing around the p-word, you're left wanting to be able to see into their brain (or whatever organ they're giving executive power to) one second before and one second after their mediocre-white-man bubble gets popped.
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Jun 12, 2020 19:42
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Beefeater1980 posted:OK, that's a good point and I think makes an important distinction. One of two things is true: It's a rich and diverse theoetical field, before you even go into the other alternative models that have been thrown up in the last few decades. I suppose my problem is that from your posts it seems to me that you ether know and understand the history and theory, but see no value in it and want to start again from first principles (which seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water), or that you don't know the history and the existing theory, and have no interest in learning it because you've heard that it failed. WhatEvil posted:https://twitter.com/___knighty/status/1271329539541495811?s=20 I loving love that old man groan as he hits the deck
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Jun 12, 2020 20:07
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What happened to ur av It was good e: vvvvv RIP 
Borrovan fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 20:10
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Borrovan posted:What happened to ur av I got banned for saying mean words about cops and I can't remember what that website is that stores old avatars
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Jun 12, 2020 20:12
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Miftan posted:I would imagine a fair amount of people are spending more time indoors now and are bored out of their mind. Arguing with strangers on facebook is one way of getting human contact, I suppose? She's not arguing or posting anything political etc, but I've definitely noticed her commenting a heck of a lot more on her grandkids' posts since she's been in lockdown for 12 weeks now - my mum (82)
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Jun 12, 2020 20:20
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Angepain posted:That chart is shocking and an outrage. Those are quantities, not proportions. I think it's potentially a little misleading, if you want to draw conclusions about the lot of the average boomer vs the average member of a different generation from it. Firstly, if that's total household wealth - i.e. all baby boomers have a collective wealth of £6.5tn, then it needs to be adjusted for the size of each generation. E.g. there were 2 million more people in the baby boomers than in generation X, so the boomer total wealth would need to be adjusted down by the wealth of those extra 2 million to draw a proper comparison with generation X for example. And secondly, even with perfect inter-generational opportunity, you would still expect a graph that's high on the left and low on the right, because millenials have only been working for a comparatively small length of time. If earnings tend to rise over time as you ascend to higher positions within companies with greater experience, and mortgages tend to get paid off, it's expected that household wealth would increase significantly in the later years of working life for large portions of each population group. You'd need to try and do some kind of adjustment to extrapolate the other generations to include their expected wealth after the extra years of earning to draw conclusions from it. Potentially comparing ratios like house price: earnings, savings ratios, purchasing power of wages for each generation, or the average age of purchasing the first house might be clearer indicators of inter-generational unfairness.
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Jun 12, 2020 20:30
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Ms Adequate posted:Christ I hope not, I dunked on his tweet and did numbers, I don't want to have accidentally stolen valor Holy moly your new avatar is SO awesome!
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Jun 12, 2020 20:39
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 that 'liberals liberals liberals!' comic, but it's the Graun yelling 'JERMY CROBYN' over and over
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Jun 12, 2020 20:40
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Beefeater1980 posted:OK, that's a good point and I think makes an important distinction. One of two things is true: the Spanish anarchist movement embraced terror, extrajudicial executions by self-appointed enforcers, and mass executions of prisoners whilst in government on the Republican side - this is arguably the main factor in conservative rural peasants and socialists peeling away from the revolution. The White Terror (est. 73,000 executed or killed behind the front lines) in Nationalist-held areas was even more murderous than the Red Terror due to the Nationalist policy of organized killings, but Republican killings and executions still slaughtered est. 58,000 lives in the three years between the revolution and end (figures from Larrazabal's estimates) Reaction to terror is still a reaction to, well, the period of terror - it doesn't matter whether or not one feels the revolutionary terror was previously very justified in some historic-material sense, or pragmatically because there are priests and landlords hiding behind every tree (and being that the Republican government was fighting a civil war, there really were enemies everywhere - of course, that still makes ad hoc mass killings difficult to stomach). The people being terrified might still be disinclined to be sympathetic, and may be extremely ungrateful for their revolutionary liberation Anarchist theory today and ITT tends to be ostentatiously methodological - the anarchist society is a society of people with personally anarchist dispositions and its collective interaction with non-anarchists is left as incidental (being embedded in a predominantly liberal context, free association is taken somewhat lightly). This was not the case in 1930s Spain, to say the least - especially with the clergy. I don't really think the average Kropotkin fan today is really all that enthusiastic about the revolutionary salto mortale any more, so to speak, no matter how many  memes they post, so how much of a 'fatal flaw' lesson that can be drawn from it .. I don't know.
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Jun 12, 2020 20:42
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Yeah that’s what weirded me out about the graph. If you are older then you should on average have more wealth, because you had more years in which to accumulate it and for it to compound.
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Jun 12, 2020 20:43
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He does acknowledge that in the actual talk. Really enjoyed the talk, interesting stuff.
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Jun 12, 2020 21:27
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ronya posted:the Spanish anarchist movement embraced terror, extrajudicial executions by self-appointed enforcers, and mass executions of prisoners whilst in government on the Republican side - this is arguably the main factor in conservative rural peasants and socialists peeling away from the revolution. The White Terror (est. 73,000 executed or killed behind the front lines) in Nationalist-held areas was even more murderous than the Red Terror due to the Nationalist policy of organized killings, but Republican killings and executions still slaughtered est. 58,000 lives in the three years between the revolution and end (figures from Larrazabal's estimates) Ronya, if I have understood you correctly then you are saying that: * The Republican side in the SCW, with the support of the anarchists, carried out widespread murder of its citizens and prisoners * This was a material factor in it losing the SCW * it is wrong to assume a modern anarchist state would necessarily carry out widespread murder the way that the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War did. Is that correct?
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Jun 12, 2020 21:52
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VideoGames posted:Holy moly your new avatar is SO awesome! Thanks! I love loving everything here; https://koyorin.artstation.com/projects It was a real struggle to choose because drat look at how cool those all are!
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Jun 12, 2020 22:00
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I think a salient point about anarcho-syndicalism in Spain is not so much that it was defeated, but how long it actually managed to last. Their opponents were heavily supported by both Germany and Italy. The British and French spent most of the war looking really hard in the opposite direction and the one foreign country that was supposedly aligned to the anarchist side, Russia, was far more interested in undermining the anarchists to strengthen the hand of international communism.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:03
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Endjinneer posted:I think a salient point about anarcho-syndicalism in Spain is not so much that it was defeated, but how long it actually managed to last. Their opponents were heavily supported by both Germany and Italy. The British and French spent most of the war looking really hard in the opposite direction and the one foreign country that was supposedly aligned to the anarchist side, Russia, was far more interested in undermining the anarchists to strengthen the hand of international communism. That's sensible, but what are we comparing it with? If I compare it with any group of human beings that isn't anarcho-syndicalist then it looks a bit brief?
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Jun 12, 2020 22:08
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communism bitch posted:I got banned for saying mean words about cops and I can't remember what that website is that stores old avatars You can reverse-engineer the way the forums store the avs to get old ones, let me have a dig.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:11
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Apraxin posted:
"if we go right wing the actual right won't accuse us of being lefties anyway!" The libs go back to stepping on the same rake again
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Jun 12, 2020 22:12
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Communist Thoughts posted:"if we go right wing the actual right won't accuse us of being lefties anyway!" Then the right wing drag it towards their side, and the libs step forward onto it again, and repeat.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:17
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Beefeater1980 posted:That's sensible, but what are we comparing it with? If I compare it with any group of human beings that isn't anarcho-syndicalist then it looks a bit brief? "You can do everything right (i.e. marshal all available strengths to their best positions) and still lose." is a completely coherent (although depressing) analysis of a situation because all you're saying is that material circumstances were always going to lead to your defeat, it's a defense of the principles and the historical strategy. What separates it from obsolete philisophies and strategies is pointing out why material circumstances are significantly different this time around, meaning the same playbook can be used without the shadow of history dooming it from the start again. If someone can't offer that then it's fair to discard their philosophy. Socialists point to things like Project Cybersyn and Walmart for why mass planned economies already exist well within human tolerances and can also be repurposed to be made even better and simply want to claim the power to do so, anarchists seem to focus more around the increased ability to decentralise communications and some production for why their theories of revolution are sound.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:19
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Beefeater1980 posted:That's sensible, but what are we comparing it with? If I compare it with any group of human beings that isn't anarcho-syndicalist then it looks a bit brief? It indicates that anarchists have hitherto struggled to attract the numbers of more centralized methods of organization, but we live, i think, in a more decentralized society than before. Our work, our entertainment, our communications are all far less centralized. If I was going to offer a critique of the 2019 (and 2017) labour manifestos for example, I think there was a general desire to get people to go back to older models of work. No zero hours contracts etc, and sort of a general hostility to the notion of the gig economy, on the basis that it is insecure for workers. But, as someone who's on one, I actually don't want to work in a dedicated building with strict hours. I want a more secure life, yes, but I don't dislike the way my job works. I value the independence of my work and the flexibility. If it's a nice day I don't have to go to work that day, I can work later in the week, or I can work in the evening. That's very valuable to me. I like not being told what to do every second by someone else, and I feel like trying to solve labour problems by pushing people back into a more traditional work structure isn't actually gonna be that popular. Which is why I want things like UBI. I think there's probably a lot of people who are much more used to living outside of rigid hierarchies in work nowadays, and I also think that many forms of entertainment and social media are the same. I don't think the people I watch on youtube and whatever are better than me because most of them are just people like me making stuff as a hobby. It's a major part of why I like the platform, it's far more personal, it's not some big studio drip feeding you whatever product it's designed for you to consume today. It's much more social. Also why I like games because a big part of them is talking to other people who like them and sharing experiences, again it's far more egalitarian, I think, than everyone sitting in front of the TV and just consuming. I dunno, I feel like a lot of the low level hierarchies in life are breaking down. And I think that's a good thing. I also think a lot of the people rebelling against lovely social customs are doing so in a very anti-hierarchical manner, and are consciously aware that those rules really serve to create a pecking order. So I dunno, I feel like if we are on course for a left resurgence then a surprising amount of people are going to be on the anti hierarchical side of it, compared to previous points in history.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:20
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It may well be that material conditions prevailing in 1930s Spain or 1910-20s Ukraine made anarchism impossible and that material conditions prevailing today make it viable. Just look at Owly's post there, he highlights very well how many things are changing and it's certainly possible, though by no means certain, that the impact of Covid will be to really boost in the long term the presence of the Internet, decentralization, and more personal flexibility in daily life. Does that in itself translate to anything except a slightly less lovely work environment, well, no, but if it's also serving to erode the old hierarchies and lines of demarcation then it may play a part in some more significant and radical changes down the line. Of course whether all that actually results in anarchism or any specific flavor thereof rather than any of the trillion other possibilities even on the left is another matter entirely. As is so often the case, leftist theory does an extremely good job of offering diagnoses of existing structures and problems, and then insists its own flavor of solution is not only best but inevitable and historical conditions can lead to no other outcome.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:35
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Prince John posted:I think it's potentially a little misleading, if you want to draw conclusions about the lot of the average boomer vs the average member of a different generation from it. I think the point is more about where all the wealth is concentrated, and how massively that's weighted towards boomers as a group that's the thing about economic policy, if you get it wrong all the wealth ends up pooling in one place. Younger generations are seeing more and more of their wealth captured, through things like having to pay rent to the people who own housing, and budgets and austerity measures hitting people with less wealth while protecting or even benefitting those with a lot more
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