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Burns posted:My thinking is more along the lines of why would federation extremists run with suits so similar to those of their sworn enemies and people they basically want to enslave.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:47
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tsob posted:An enemy, because Kamille was never one to stand for Char's bullshit. It doesn't really matter how you rejigger Gyunei's role, it still requires Kamille be someone who is okay with killing millions, if not billions, to achieve something. Which, without Char labotomizing him, he's not going to be. And if Char did labotomize him, you'd end up with Kamille in name only. Which kind of defeats the purpose of having him there in the first place. Just convince him all of those people said his name is girly, and then he'll be perfectly fine with it.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:33
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tsob posted:An enemy, because Kamille was never one to stand for Char's bullshit. It doesn't really matter how you rejigger Gyunei's role, it still requires Kamille be someone who is okay with killing millions, if not billions, to achieve something. Which, without Char labotomizing him, he's not going to be. And if Char did labotomize him, you'd end up with Kamille in name only. Which kind of defeats the purpose of having him there in the first place. Yeah, Kamille respected Char and took him as a mentor, but he was also constantly calling Char on his bullshit. Which, of course, is part of why Char had such hope for him. Kamille was a better Newtype and the better person, and trusting in him was pretty much how Char kept himself from just jumping on the cyber newtype train before CCA. That said, while Kamille really hates war, he grudgingly accepts killing when it's the only way. He knows that the Titans need to be fought. He just wishes that he didn't have to fight, and chases after any way out he can find.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:35
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Burns posted:My thinking is more along the lines of why would federation extremists run with suits so similar to those of their sworn enemies and people they basically want to enslave. Same reason why NATO basically just put ex-Wehrmacht generals sentenced to hang at Nuremberg in charge of the West German Bundeswehr during the cold war: political expediency.
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Jun 13, 2020 03:10
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also ignoring characterization kamille is theoretically the one guy in uc who could beat CCA-era amuro since according to WOG he's the strongest newtype, right?
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Jun 13, 2020 04:17
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I thought the general line was that Kamille was the strongest newtype we see. So yeah, against Amuro he would probably have a good shot. Additionally if Amuro had to fight both Kamille and Char he would be in trouble.
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Jun 13, 2020 04:38
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Stairmaster posted:also ignoring characterization kamille is theoretically the one guy in uc who could beat CCA-era amuro since according to WOG he's the strongest newtype, right? Not really. He's a stronger Newtype, but Amuro's strong enough to keep Kamille from doing anything too fancy. It would come down to piloting, and the thing about Amuro is that he fights like an ace pilot who's also a newtype, while Kamille fights like a Newtype who's also a good pilot. When it's three on one in Zeta, Kamille's in trouble and needs to either get bailed out or do something clever. When it's three on one for Amuro, it's not even a road bump.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:03
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Cmon kids, good new type doesn’t directly translate to incredible pilot. It seemed like what’s his face from a (Gerard?) was a really powerful newtype, and did not seem to be an incredible of pilot, mostly just as strong as the main character needs to be in that respect.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:16
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chiasaur11 posted:Not really. He's a stronger Newtype, but Amuro's strong enough to keep Kamille from doing anything too fancy. It would come down to piloting, and the thing about Amuro is that he fights like an ace pilot who's also a newtype, while Kamille fights like a Newtype who's also a good pilot. When it's three on one in Zeta, Kamille's in trouble and needs to either get bailed out or do something clever. When it's three on one for Amuro, it's not even a road bump. yeah but zeta also has char not really doing anything amazing piloting wise so its hard to assesses
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Jun 13, 2020 05:23
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I'd like to think Kamille spent all of the time after ZZ spinning Fa around on that beach, and that by CCA he would be strong enough to simply wrestle Amuro out of the gundam.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:24
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Generally what it seems to be is that Amuro is the best pilot and a strong newtype, Judau is a strong newtype but an average pilot, and Kamille is a strong newtype and a good pilot. This seems backed up in-story too where Judau is pulling Kamille-level poo poo pretty regularly from fairly early on and the ZZ Gundam succeeds largely because Judau is such a crazy Newtype. In the end if Kamille or Judau can beat Amuro comes down to "can they pull a Newtype Bullshit out of their rear end before Amuro takes them down?"
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Jun 13, 2020 05:31
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Judau's piloting skills seem less average and more just ridiculously specialised for something like the ZZ.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:38
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Judau does way wilder newtype stuff on screen than Kamille does. Kamille does some extremely spooky poo poo(sword of rage, waverider crash, etc), but Judau breaks into outright telekinesis and powering the ZZ pretty much solely with his mind on several occasions. There's a scene in ZZ where Judau not only duplicates Kamille's hyper beam saber trick, he does it with a pretty much drained ZZ and the sword he produces is big and strong enough to bisect a colony cylinder.
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Jun 13, 2020 05:41
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Kanos posted:Judau does way wilder newtype stuff on screen than Kamille does. Kamille does some extremely spooky poo poo(sword of rage, waverider crash, etc), but Judau breaks into outright telekinesis and powering the ZZ pretty much solely with his mind on several occasions. Yeah, his baseline is end of Zeta Kamille (which makes sense because Z goes right into ZZ) and by the end of the series he's easily eclipsed anything Kamille has ever done in terms of weird Newtype poo poo. (Of course he also represents the point where Newtype Magic basically hit critical mass that eventually led us to stuff like Unicorn achieving apotheosis but such is the way of power bloat in any series.)
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Jun 13, 2020 05:51
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tbf CCA is not all that out there (until the end where it becomes the most out there but thats kind of the point).
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Jun 13, 2020 06:00
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CCA and Unicorn/Narrative both move away from individual newtype power levels and instead shift towards the idea that any newtype can be an epic level wizard if they have access to enough psycoframe.
Kanos fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 06:13
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Stairmaster posted:tbf CCA is not all that out there (until the end where it becomes the most out there but thats kind of the point). The Axis Shock is over-the-top in a good way. Amuro does something impossible as a thematic conclusion that still ties into the whole "Newtypes are people who can understand without words" thing. It's also treated as a miracle, something that can't be counted on and that might never happen again. Zeta starts with Newtype stuff that builds in an interesting way off of the original, and it keeps up for a while. Paptimus's charisma, Haman's presence, and Kamille's potential all feel like further steps along the same line as Amuro and Lalah. But then in the last act, people are basically wizard dueling with their psychic powers, and it continues into ZZ with Newtypes working less an examination of human failure to communicate, and more as, well... wizards. It's dumb. It even hurts how cool funnels are as an idea. The basic premise is that you have people whose power is that they can talk to each other and reach understanding... and the powers that be still find a way to weaponize it. Meanwhile, when Newtypes can kill people with brain bullets, they're basically weaponized from the get-go, and there's no interesting sin in using them further.
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Jun 13, 2020 06:43
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I maintain that Uso could take Amuro in a fight.
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Jun 13, 2020 08:18
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MonsieurChoc posted:I maintain that Uso could take Amuro in a fight. Uso needs to get bailed out by an unborn baby when fighting Fuala, and she's not exactly Haman Karn. He's creative, but he doesn't dominate the battlefield the way you see with late 0079 and on Amuro, not even with Haro playing copilot. What's more, Amuro faced established aces on a regular basis. Buran, for example was enough of a hotshot to take on Char and Kamille at once with confidence. Then Amuro came in with a cargo shuttle and kicked his rear end bad enough he had to go running. The Zanscare aces... well, Chronicle is one of their top pilots. Chronicle. To put things another way, you can tell a Zanscare ace by Uso being pushed to his limit. You can tell a Zeon or Titan ace by the fact they saw Amuro and lived. Speaking of Uso, finally watched the first episode of Victory. Even acknowledging it's out of order, it's not very good. Might try to put more thoughts together later, but it just feels like such a nothing compared to most Gundam first episodes. Even the bad ones. We get lots of characters, but very little in the way of characterization. Mech fights, but no feeling of emotional stakes. Horrific tragedy and war crimes, but without the impact that Gundam tends to manage with them. Even as a fourth episode, there's not much to recommend it. And unlike Turn A, the delay for the Gundam showing up... doesn't feel like it meant much to the story.
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Jun 13, 2020 12:21
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tsob posted:Which kind of defeats the purpose of having him there in the first place. Not if the purpose of having Kamille there and lobotomized was to show how monstrous Char was/had become.
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Jun 13, 2020 13:25
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a few days ago i learned my step-sister dated the dude who voiced dub Kamille back in high school, and it's such a random thing i had to share it with the thread. apparently he was a dick, so not much of a stretch there.
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Jun 13, 2020 13:51
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Burns posted:As a side, i take it there are no plans to do more of The Origin series in animated format? They've run out of prequel stuff to adapt and it doesn't seem like they ever want to remake 0079, so that's why they're moving on to stuff like Hathaway's Flash now.
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Jun 13, 2020 13:55
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chiasaur11 posted:
Victory is just mean. There is way too much circular nonsense early on, the out of order opening episodes aren't very good. I would have liked it better just building to the Gundam reveal as originally planned. I really was excited to watch Victory and well it's really only worthwhile for the hilarity of the hyper violence and deaths they throw out there. Otherwise most of it is kinda dumb, uncomfortable, gross, or poorly scripted/planned, to the point where the end game is just kinda like "well let's keep jumping sharks".
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Jun 13, 2020 16:03
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Stairmaster posted:also ignoring characterization kamille is theoretically the one guy in uc who could beat CCA-era amuro since according to WOG he's the strongest newtype, right? What's WOG? Kanos posted:Judau does way wilder newtype stuff on screen than Kamille does. Kamille does some extremely spooky poo poo(sword of rage, waverider crash, etc), but Judau breaks into outright telekinesis and powering the ZZ pretty much solely with his mind on several occasions. Kamille doesn't seem all that powerful as a Newtype without some technology specifically created to boost Newtype power in Zeta itself, but the loss of control/connection to his physical body at the end of Zeta appears to allow his mental power to flourish in ZZ, because he's an absurdly strong Newtype in that regard within ZZ. As in, he speaks to half a dozen people hundreds of miles apart in succession using telepathy and then guides Puru II through a battlefield with some degree of presience at one point. It's about the most singular instance of that type of power within the franchise, and the only thing I can even think of that's even close is Amuro guiding the White Base crew out of A Baoa Qu at the end of 0079. Which is all people within a much smaller area, for a start. Depending on how you read the finale of ZZ too, he may actually have interceded in Judau's fight against Haman to distract Haman for a few seconds while Judau got the ZZ back together. He only appears as a silent, unmoving image though, so it's hard to tell if he's supposed to be there or just something either Haman imagined etc. Kanos posted:CCA and Unicorn/Narrative both move away from individual newtype power levels and instead shift towards the idea that any newtype can be an epic level wizard if they have access to enough psycoframe. It's less "how much psycoframe do you have" and more "how much collective will do you have" in Char's Counterattack, which to be honest, is both a more interesting way to approach that kind of ridiculous power as well as creating enough of a barrier that it's not just something someone can whip out at a moment's notice and will generally feel less contrived. Amuro was doing something as the focal point of a few dozen pilots, with several ships worth of people watching on and hoping for the same thing at the very least. Some interpretations have it be the collective will of all Earthnoids/humanity; though that feels like bullshit to me, since no-one on the planet afterwards even seems aware of what had happened. I think Unicorn was originally trying for some degree of restraint, because it's only when Marida's ghost appears that the Unicorn goes "gently caress everything" mode and can do whatever it wants, but even then, the Neo Zeong's psycoshard could basically replicate that with none of the same constraint regardless. EthanSteele posted:Not if the purpose of having Kamille there and lobotomized was to show how monstrous Char was/had become. Yes, in a film where Char drops two seperate asteroids on to Earth with the express purpose of creating a nuclear winter and doesn't seem concerned when Amuro points out it'll kill lots of Earthnoids and where Char personally manipulates the admiration of a teenage girl that is reminiscent of the lover he can't get over, to turn her in to a weapon with no regret or even really recognition that what he was doing was bad in any way, the one thing we definitely needed was something more to show how monstrous Char was/had become.
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Jun 13, 2020 16:32
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tsob posted:asteroids on to Earth with the express purpose of creating a nuclear winter and doesn't seem concerned when Amuro points out it'll kill lots of Earthnoids and where Char personally manipulates the admiration of a teenage girl that is reminiscent of the lover he can't get over, to turn her in to a weapon with no regret or even really recognition that what he was doing was bad in any way, the one thing we definitely needed was something more to show how monstrous Char was/had become. Doing bad things to people you know personally is a different kind of evil than doing bad things to people you just met or only know in the abstract.
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Jun 13, 2020 17:20
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tsob posted:What's WOG? WOG in this context is Word of God I believe Midjack posted:Doing bad things to people you know personally is a different kind of evil than doing bad things to people you just met or only know in the abstract. Yeah, I would absolutely describe lobotomizing someone you previously worked very closely with as your protege and you considered the hope for humanity's future to get them to play along with your plans as a different kind of evil. But I guess they had the Correct Amount of Content as decided by tsob and anything else that adds to it in any way would be pointless.
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Jun 13, 2020 17:27
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EthanSteele posted:Yeah, I would absolutely describe lobotomizing someone you previously worked very closely with as your protege and you considered the hope for humanity's future to get them to play along with your plans as a different kind of evil. But I guess they had the Correct Amount of Content as decided by tsob and anything else that adds to it in any way would be pointless. Thanks for putting those words in my mouth. I do think that what it adds isn't worth what it costs though, regardless, because what it adds is so minor.
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Jun 13, 2020 17:31
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chiasaur11 posted:Uso needs to get bailed out by an unborn baby when fighting Fuala, and she's not exactly Haman Karn. He's creative, but he doesn't dominate the battlefield the way you see with late 0079 and on Amuro, not even with Haro playing copilot. No, Marbet needed to get bailed out by an unborn baby. Uso was surprisingly holding his own with the V2's Core fighter alone. And Chronicle is not really the barometer to measure Uso; it's Katejina, who was repeatedly stated to be abnormally naturally gifted at piloting and was a pretty strong newtype herself, and Uso was fighting them simultaneously a lot of the time.
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Jun 13, 2020 17:35
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https://twitter.com/WeebSimpsons/status/1271838538498260993
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Jun 13, 2020 17:38
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tsob posted:Thanks for putting those words in my mouth. I do think that what it adds isn't worth what it costs though, regardless, because what it adds is so minor. It has the potential for having a huge emotional impact because we know what Kamille was like before the lobotomizing.
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Jun 13, 2020 19:41
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MechaX posted:No, Marbet needed to get bailed out by an unborn baby. Uso was surprisingly holding his own with the V2's Core fighter alone. Also Uso is 13. By the time he's Amuro's age...
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Jun 13, 2020 21:25
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Uso's good but he's not even on Kamille's level let alone close to Amuro.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:37
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power levels
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Jun 13, 2020 22:40
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Would Uso have a high enough power level to fight Amuro if Victory Gundam had a bigger budget for fight scenes and stuff is the real question
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Jun 13, 2020 22:41
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MechaX posted:No, Marbet needed to get bailed out by an unborn baby. Uso was surprisingly holding his own with the V2's Core fighter alone. I just watched that fight before writing that post. Uso was on the ropes before Marbet came in, and he'd been forced down to the core fighter. It wasn't like he'd started the fight without legs. He'd just messed up and wound up flying a fighter in a Mobile Suit fight. Meanwhile, Chronicle is more a marker for Zanscare pilot quality in general (low, since he's the worst Char clone and he's still one of their best pilots) than an ultimate opponent. Katejina's talented, but she doesn't have anything close Char's record (enhanced by later manga and anime, admittedly), and Amuro's just stomping all over Char when they're in equivalent mobile suits. Uso shows a lot of unorthodox tactics, some pretty good, and he scores a lot of kills (thanks to, in the later episodes, having a show with Wing and SEED style walls of beams blowing up a billion guys at once while not taking damage from getting direct hits), but comparing him to Amuro, he's a rank amateur. And pretending there's some hypothetical later Uso who's better is basically making things up whole cloth. Just as easy to pretend the trauma finally catches up to him and he's a catatonic wreck for the rest of his life. From the fights I've seen, I'd honestly rate Mikazuki above him as a pilot, but that one I'm less certain on. It's hard to find the clips I'm looking for, and watching Victory Gundam for them means watching Victory Gundam. I've said some mean things in this thread about G-Reco, SEED, AGE, Wing, Endless Waltz, Thunderbolt, SEED Destiny, 08th MS team, 00 Gundam, Gundam X, F91, Narrative, SD Gundam, Unicorn, people's mothers, and for reasons I'm sure made sense at the time, the 1963 Prix Jean Vigo short film awards committee, but for them, I will now say this: They still aren't Victory Gundam. And that's something to be proud of. (The original Build Divers and IGLOO, I'm not going to be so quick to compliment.)
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Jun 13, 2020 23:10
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Meh, Jean Vigo is overrated anyways.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:38
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chiasaur11 posted:I just watched that fight before writing that post. Uso was on the ropes before Marbet came in, and he'd been forced down to the core fighter. It wasn't like he'd started the fight without legs. He'd just messed up and wound up flying a fighter in a Mobile Suit fight. Uso did a dumb by ejecting his boots against Fuala, but fighting probably the most advanced Zanscare suit with a core fighter and not dying immediately shouldn't be a slight against him. But yeah, Marbet kinda came to the assist harder with the distraction from the beam cannon, and then giving Uso the Victory's boots/hangar. Chronicle is an interesting case because he started to pilot a lot less as the series went on and as he gradually got more promotions to heading the Motorad Fleet. Uso was fighting pilots like Lupe, Fuala, weirdos in bikes or dragon mobile armors, or most frequently Katejina (and by the end of the series, Katejina was firmly out of everyone's league except Uso, and it took newtype fuckery by the Angel Halo, ghosts, and V2's full powered wings of light to sink her mobile suit). And even though most here are kinda comparing Uso to end of CCA Amuro with over a decade of mobile suit experience, and more than half a decade of combat experience (I know you mentioned end of 0079 and I think that Uso is at least on that level by the end of Victory), we can't discount that Uso's parents were weird and either constantly made him engage in combat training because they thought/wished he was a newtype, or forced him to just use MS simulators forever.
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Jun 14, 2020 03:27
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chiasaur11 posted:Uso needs to get bailed out by an unborn baby when fighting Fuala poo poo i guess i need to watch victory gundam
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Jun 14, 2020 09:55
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MechaX posted:Uso did a dumb by ejecting his boots against Fuala, but fighting probably the most advanced Zanscare suit with a core fighter and not dying immediately shouldn't be a slight against him. But yeah, Marbet kinda came to the assist harder with the distraction from the beam cannon, and then giving Uso the Victory's boots/hangar. You know that Katz managed to survive a similar length of time against Yazan in a core fighter, right? Katz. And unlike Uso, Katz didn't get tagged until he'd crashed into an asteroid. If Uso had standard core fighter durability, he'd have been killed, or at least taken serious damage to his ship, when Fuala scored a direct hit. As it was, he was still out of control and an easy target. If he hadn't been bailed out, he didn't have many options. Amuro (and some other Gundam protagonists, to a less extent) is a nightmare, even for other aces. He sets the terms of engagement, he keeps the enemy pressured, and even when he's not in charge, he's moving to reset the fight. I assumed from how people talked about him that Uso would be the same, but watching his fights, he's regularly surprised, and when he's bailed out it's not just a momentary save, but an extended reset where he has to withdraw and return. Also, whenever a pilot requires his attention rather than just getting vaporized by his superior Mobile Suit (and I do mean superior. The V2's probably the best suit in the show, unlike all of Amuro's rides between the original Gundam and the Nu.), Uso tends to need to actually fight the guy, rather than an offhand kill like Amuro got good at. Comparing to a different devil for wider context, Mikazuki's put on the backfoot several times, but is never shown to be definitely doomed if the fight kept going without interruption, and usually that half second interruption is enough for him to turn the tables. I never would have thought I'd say it before watching a bunch of Victory fights, but I'm pretty sure I'd call Mika the better pilot. Uso's better than anyone else in the show, but the gap's not like Amuro, where even the other great pilots are left in awe. He's just good enough that he can win against them if (and explicitly only if) he's at the top of his game. Add in Victory being a setting with very few good pilots to begin with, and Uso's not even a patch on the 0063 classic model. ninjewtsu posted:poo poo i guess i need to watch victory gundam I'm not sure I'd recommend that course of action, but it's certainly... something. The thing that really got to me about the baby scenes was how amazed everyone was by the concept of the baby existing. Like, I'm all for babies, even unborn ones. As a wise man once said, they look delicious, like ham. But everyone's treating babies as this crazy idea that inspires either awe or terror. Like fighting for saving all life on Earth, or even protecting the toddler your military unit adopted? That's not important. What matter is that, get this. Two people hosed, and somehow a baby happened. The villain freaking out about pregnancy had at least gone full newtype insane. The protagonist pilots making the speeches are harder to understand.
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Jun 14, 2020 11:54
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Is Gundam 00 any good if I enjoyed G Gundam and Gundam Wing?
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Jun 14, 2020 18:40
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