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Claude blowing open Fodlan's Throat to launch an invasion earns a pretty clear response to me...
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Jun 14, 2020 14:23
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snoremac posted:Are the stats appearing for battalions (phys attack, hit etc.) influencing the character's stats or are they specific to the battalion? Another thing of not is that just like the stat bonuses are fixed to the battalion, so are the level up results. A specific level of alliance brawlers will always provide the same bonuses.
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Jun 14, 2020 14:40
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Cythereal posted:I disagree. We know from the beginning that Dimitri intended to enact major reforms in Faerghus the moment he returned home - that's what his father had tried to do, too. Dimitri, in my view, doesn't really change at the end of AM compared to how he was at the beginning. AM is about his descent into darkness and his return to the light, I don't think his journey made him better or wiser than he was at the beginning. We also know that Claude intended to shake things up from the beginning, too. And I think it's hard to say how resistant to such reforms Rhea might really be. She's laser focused on protecting her people and bringing back Sothis, and we know that under the right circumstances Sothis can give Rhea a hell of a wake-up call. Whether Dimitri's intended reforms and Claude's intended changes would have been perceived as a threat to Rhea to be stamped out is impossible to say in the context of the game, in my opinion. We don't know if things could have worked out peacefully because Edelgard - for VERY understandable reasons - doesn't give anyone a choice. Not only was Dimitri mentally unsound at the start of the story, but there's also the matter of how successful his intended reforms would be (as well as what exactly his reforms would be). You made a good comparison to his dad, but the thing you glossed over is that his dad got murdered for trying to implement his reforms, and there's no proof that Dimitri would have been any more successful/unmurdered without the whole "war-hero king" persona combined with how the Faerghus civil war let him get rid of some of the worst of the people in the Kingdom's upper ranks. Faerghus is constantly shown to be hyper-reactionary and noble-focused in the worst ways, with attempts to fix this internally being met with murder followed by scapegoat-genocide. And this is before considering the future Slytherin infiltration of the Kingdom a la Cornelia that Dimitiri would have had to deal with and his route shows that he's...um, not very good at that. Dimitri's peaceful reforms just flowing through without a hitch seems pretty unfounded given what we know of Faerghus, and even then there are limits to what Dimitri would be able/willing to do. Claude's plan to "shake things up" was to blow up a mountain-range and to start a continent-wide war, except this time with added Almyran participants. So acting like that's any better than Edelgard's plan to shake things up (also continent-wide war, but with less foreign intervention and the starting intent of also removing the Slytherins) is pretty weird. He was just planning on doing it later, so Edelgard beat him to starting the war first. Rhea (or at least the Church, and there's no reason to think that Rhea would have gone against the Church in this case) absolutely would have come into conflict with Claude's intended changes, given that opening Fodlan up to foreigners goes against the Church's teachings. And, you know, the whole "blow up the mountain range that stops us being overrun with Wyvern Riders". Rhea has had 1000 years of doing fuckall real reforms to Fodlan's messes, so I'm not inclined to give her any benefit of the doubt that "oh, I'm sure that she'll change her millenia-old tune and start helping fix her warped society any decade now". Rhea only gets her "wake up call" after spending five years being forced to live with any really significant consequences for the first time in hundreds of years, which probably plays some part in how ashamed she can turn out in the end. Without having her mistakes forced into her face and potentially getting dope-slapped by her mom, there's absolutely no sign Rhea was going to pursue any real reform. Like, there was that whole period in time where Rhea thought she'd lost her chance at Sothis' return (given the whole "Babyleth and crest stone are lost in fire" lie) but Rhea's response to that was not "well, mother might not be able to come back and fix things so I'll make a start in trying to fix society", it was to...keep doing the same things as she had been for the past 1000 years. No crest reforms, no nobility reforms, no foreign diplomacy, no tech relaxation, no nothing, just more doubling down. I'm pretty sure "just because X hasn't happened before, can you say X is impossible, or has it just not happened yet?" is a devil's proof and doesn't hold any real burden of proof weight. Sure, I can't prove that there aren't invisible, intangible devils everywhere on the planet but that isn't going to convince me that there are such devils. A "just because Rhea has been supporting the status quo for 1000 years doesn't mean that in year 1001 she isn't going to start working against said status quo" argument is about as convincing. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jun 14, 2020 |
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Jun 14, 2020 15:07
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Shinji117 posted:I'm pretty sure "just because X hasn't happened before, can you say X is impossible, or has it just not happened yet?" is a devil's proof and doesn't hold any real burden of proof weight. Sure, I can't prove that there aren't invisible, intangible devils everywhere on the planet but that isn't going to convince me that there are such devils. A "just because Rhea has been supporting the status quo for 1000 years doesn't mean that in year 1001 she isn't going to start working against said status quo" argument is just as convincing. The thing you're overlooking is Byleth, that Byleth not only genuinely is Sothis' reincarnation but has her in her head. I think Byleth is the factor that makes change and reform possible, not Edelgard's war. Remember that under the right circumstances, Sothis can berate Rhea so hard she devotes the rest of her life to undoing the evil she inflicted on the world. Rhea can, under sufficiently extreme circumstances, admit that she is wrong, that she has been wrong for a very long time, and try to set things right. Edelgard never once contemplates the possibility that her war was unjust. If Edelgard hadn't launched her war, I don't think it's unreasonable to postulate that Byleth's presence and role with Sothis could have changed things dramatically without getting shitloads of people killed and widespread suffering and terror in war. We don't know if that could have happened, no, because Edelgard never allows the possibility (a possibility she's not aware of), but I think the possibility shouldn't be discounted. If Edelgard and Byleth take opposing positions, the only person at Garreg Mach who will choose Edelgard over Byleth, if they both make appeals to them, is Hubert. Edelgard's working off incomplete and limited information, just like everyone else. I don't think it's in her nature to do anything but what she does, and how she does nothing but double down. It's why I think AM is the best ending, all things considered. It places both Edelgard and Rhea into the dustbin of history.
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Jun 14, 2020 15:18
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Azure Moon is definitively the worst ending. Crimson Flower lets Edelgard institute all her progressive reforms, and puts a definitive kibosh on both the Agartheans and the dragons. Various other character endings describe the slitherers resurfacing and being foiled again. Silver Snow and Verdant Wind end up with putting the preternaturally gregarious half-god homunculus you've been controlling in charge, so you can assume they'll lead in whatever way you think is most appropriate and the people love them for it. Azure Moon makes Dmitri the emperor, and he's a well-meaning lad who probably makes reasonable strides against racism and systemic crest bias, but he largely keeps things going as they were. He makes it very clear that he hasn't thought very hard about his position in the world. He spends the first half of his route trying his hardest to get himself and everyone under him killed, and everyone around him were more than willing to join in the mass suicide, because what else were they going to do, go against their king? Nobody saw any option beyond asking him nicely to relent and then go off to get killed when he said no. Two months after an innocent tries to kill him and his surrogate father dies to save him, he proceeds to chastise Edelgard for starting the war, on the grounds that if the people were treated as poorly as she claims, they'd have rebelled ages ago. Nobody questions his reasoning, and he does not consider this to be a problem. Edelgard, on the other hand, is justified in everything she does by virtue of her circumstances. At no point does she have any options other than declaring war on the continent or dying, because she has been in the clutches of the Agartheans her entire life. They want to use her as a figurehead, but make it very clear that they will bump her off if she steps out of line. She cannot prevent the war, so she instead makes it her own, and rallies her forces until she's able to make a move against the Slitherers. The only other possible move she could make was to be killed by the Slitherers and hope that Byleth magically manages to not get assassinated by them, provoke them into attacking her the way they do in Azure Moon, and convince Rhea to institute mass reforms. I wish the game didn't go quite so far to justify Edelgard's actions, and decide that Dmitri didn't need to answer any tough questions after his recovery, but it kind of does.
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Jun 14, 2020 15:58
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Cythereal posted:The thing you're overlooking is Byleth, that Byleth not only genuinely is Sothis' reincarnation but has her in her head. I think Byleth is the factor that makes change and reform possible, not Edelgard's war. Remember that under the right circumstances, Sothis can berate Rhea so hard she devotes the rest of her life to undoing the evil she inflicted on the world. Rhea can, under sufficiently extreme circumstances, admit that she is wrong, that she has been wrong for a very long time, and try to set things right. Edelgard never once contemplates the possibility that her war was unjust. AM is probably the worst overall ending because no one really deals with the Slitherers, or even really learns about them, and Dimitri is by far the most conservative and reactionary of the potential rulers of Fodlan. The one benefit it has over SS and VW is that at least it isn't an overt theocracy based on something our main characters explicitly know is a pile of lies. And honestly if Dimitri had abdicated it probably would have been a really good ending. But goddamn you do not put someone who acted like Azure Moon Dimitri in charge of anything, ever. Zore fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Jun 14, 2020 |
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Jun 14, 2020 16:24
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Zore posted:AM is probably the worst overall ending because no one really deals with the Slitherers, or even really learns about them, and Dimitri is by far the most conservative and reactionary of the potential rulers of Fodlan. If you've played the other routes, you can see that Dimitri crushes the Slitherers without even realizing they were there.  He kills Thales without even knowing he was an Agarthan, though he does realize that something is seriously off about him.Dimitri is also hugely progressive, he's just focused on things besides the Crest system - which he readily admits is unjust (and Dimitri doesn't even believe in the Church's teachings to boot). He's much more concerned with race relations, helping the poor (it's one of his advice letters in part two), and helping all the victims of the war. And he does it without being an autocrat like Edelgard.
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Jun 14, 2020 16:35
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Cythereal posted:If you've played the other routes, you can see that Dimitri crushes the Slitherers without even realizing they were there. Dimitri is a hereditary autocrat who secures his family's grip on the entirety of a continent, 2/3 of which he obtains through conquest. Really struggling to see the 'not an autocrat' angle here even if he does some positive reforms later in life. Like we get a fairly decent look at how non-traumatized Dimitri acts in CF... and it all sets up that he entered into a political marriage and had a quick child to secure the inheritance. Hereditary monarchy is a scourge even if you have a 'good' monarch 
Zore fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jun 14, 2020 |
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Jun 14, 2020 16:42
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Edit: You know what, this is going to accomplish exactly what every previous 'discussion' about the subject does: jack poo poo.
Cythereal fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jun 14, 2020 |
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Jun 14, 2020 16:43
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Cythereal posted:He maintains a system of nobility who don't owe their positions to his and only his say so, the Church continues to exist as another check on him, and he didn't start the war to begin with. Right because he doesn't seriously want to upend Fodlan despite the massive systemic changes he is supposedly aware of. Like I'm always reminded of the Twain quote about the Reign of Terror, “THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.” Like especially with the DLC we see how Rhea and the Church have done horrific things over the millennia they were running Fodlan. But Edelgard is the one people always have to look to because she started a war (that partially accomplished her goals and reformed society to a greater or lesser extent on every route). Like the game's pretty clear that the war needed to happen, things absolutely could not continue as they were. Dimitri's just shoving the actually problem down another few generations once one of his descendants isn't a good person
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Jun 14, 2020 16:50
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The Church and nobles of Fearghus have been definitively shown to be more willing to die than act as a check on Dmitri's authority. He's an autocrat, whether he wants to be or not.
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Jun 14, 2020 17:12
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Cythereal posted:If you've played the other routes, you can see that Dimitri crushes the Slitherers without even realizing they were there. I've played the other routes, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but organisations are greater than just their ingame-portrait'd leaders. Thales was not some absolute keystone whose death causes all the Slytherins to disintegrate into nothingness. Dimitri never finds Shambala or any of the other Slytherin bases (outside of maaaaaaybe the Hapi paired ending, which is the only one where he works out the Slytherins exist at all). The Slytherins can just wait out a couple decades in their underground vaults, choose a new boss and start their face stealing all over again, just even more effectively as the crest system is still in place, except it'll be even easier after the wait as natural crests die out and more nobles are desperate for Slytherin-provided crests no matter the price. And I wouldn't call an absolute monarch who says "well, there are good and bad points to our caste system" ("Still, there is always a reason for why such customs stand the test of time. Imagine what this world would be like if no one placed any stock in Crests... Bloodlines that carry Crests would dwindle. The metaphorical blade used to oppose threats would eventually rest.") and supports hereditary nobility to be "hugely progressive" (for the talk about his concern with race relations, IIRC Duscur doesn't actually get much focus in AM endgame/epilogues so eeeehhhh), especially when compared to the alternatives of "end all racism" (though marks down for aiming for a monarchy of his own) or "down with crests+nobles". Out of the Lords, he's only really hugely progressive compared to Rhea, which is not especially hard. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Jun 14, 2020 |
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Jun 14, 2020 17:41
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Cythereal posted:Edit: You know what, this is going to accomplish exactly what every previous 'discussion' about the subject does: jack poo poo.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:03
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Edelgard is number 1 kiss girl and also my wife
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Jun 14, 2020 18:18
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I think Dimitri is just not a abstract thinker. He's the opposite of Edelgard the revolutionary in that respect; Edelgard sees the price of a status quo and decides it'd be abhorrent to allow it to continue. Dimitri sees the price of war and thinks it's murder to start one. He's really explicit about this; that's why he goes around murdering soldiers, he thinks war itself is a crime perpetrated against innocents and those who commit that crime deserve death. I don't know if he's right or wrong. War is really bad. For what it's worth I think a Dimitri surrounded by reformists would be happy to return his own power to the people; he never really seeks power and doesn't seem particularly attached to having it. Indeed he pretty much throws away the power of being king in order to go around stabbing Empire soldiers. Unfortunately there's no reason to think the people around him would actually suggest reforms like this. And of course, to be honest, the game isn't well written (or translated?) enough to really consider this question; these are the questions the Edelgard and Dimitri conversation in AM is supposed to explore but it really doesn't. Anyway Azure Moon owns because it's great to see a Fire Emblem story that's just a character piece. There should be more fire emblems like this. Radiant Dawn should have just been Azure Moon with Micaiah playing Dimitri and Sothe playing Dedue.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:25
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I like Claude.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:26
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I like Claude too, but his route makes no sense and isn’t actually about him. You don’t even go to Almyra!
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Jun 14, 2020 18:28
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what, did you think they had enough budget left over to actually depict places outside of fodlan?
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Jun 14, 2020 18:30
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Radiant Dawn would have been a lot better if Sothe grew into a terse, gentle man mountain and Micaiah was struggling with PTSD, that is true.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:31
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nrook posted:Edelgard the revolutionary This is the weirdest take which pops up pretty often. An emperor who starts a war to consolidate power and attacks two neighbouring countries is not a revolutionary
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Jun 14, 2020 18:31
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It's mostly a semantic point, but Edelgard doesn't declare war to invade either country; she declares war on Rhea and the Church. She does eventually invade Leicester depending on the route, but Fearghus immediately joins the Church against her. I'm not sure how the story where she takes out Rhea and Thales without anyone else interfering plays out, but I don't think it's a given she'd take over the continent.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:36
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:It's mostly a semantic point, but Edelgard doesn't declare war to invade either country; she declares war on Rhea and the Church. She does eventually invade Leicester depending on the route, but Fearghus immediately joins the Church against her. I'm not sure how the story where she takes out Rhea and Thales without anyone else interfering plays out, but I don't think it's a given she'd take over the continent. I think it is, if only because no country('s nobility) would ever willingly cede the crest system since it forms the basis of their supposed legitimacy to rule. And Edelgard is too much of a nice, kind person to let any oppressed suffer, even if they're from another country 
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Jun 14, 2020 18:43
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nrook posted:Anyway Azure Moon owns because it's great to see a Fire Emblem story that's just a character piece. There should be more fire emblems like this. Radiant Dawn should have just been Azure Moon with Micaiah playing Dimitri and Sothe playing Dedue. Dimitri would have punched Izuka's head off the first time he caught him experimenting on Laguz, so yes, that would have been an improvement.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:00
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Edelgard should've just taken a few pages out of Claude's book: restart the war with Dagda and let them win, they don't give a poo poo about crests over there. Bonus: she gets to be as gay as she wants afterwards.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:02
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All the options are dumb. Viva la revolution. To the barricades.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:07
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Oh boy, back to the CIA days Is there anywhere in the game that elaborates on how magic works? I think its mentioned that Faith is Goddess Powered, but Reason is ??? If someone thinks hard enough, then a fireball appears?
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Jun 14, 2020 19:09
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Oh boy, back to the CIA days It's just the typical fantasy trope Faith v. Intelligence/Wizdom/Reason differentiation. 
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Jun 14, 2020 19:33
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I don't think Three Houses specifically goes into it, but I think the series generally imply or at least don't contradict that Anima/Black Magic involves communing with nature spirits in the way Light/White Magic involves invoking a saint or goddess. Dark Magic does vary between settings, either drawing directly from evil dragons or gods, or invoking primeval forces that predate humanity. Three Houses probably falls into the latter grouping, given that everyone who learns Dark Magic is Agarthean, a victim of Agarthean experiments, or Hubert.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:34
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Zore posted:
To be fair to Dimitri the other 2/3rds started it. lol at Edelgard being a 'revolutionary' when she already owns half the continent and doesn't actually reform the system when she takes over! Sure the Crests might be gone, and the peasants might be more educated, but she's still big on nepotism and all it takes is for her successor to go 'you know what my child should be in charge' before they're back to where they started! Real change, I tell you what.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:40
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Airspace posted:To be fair to Dimitri the other 2/3rds started it. They're all turds and in each ending it's obvious things will go down the shitter pretty fast.
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Jun 14, 2020 19:52
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not a bot posted:They're all turds and in each ending it's obvious things will go down the shitter pretty fast. True. I bet if they make a sequel that'll be how they reconcile all of the branches. "There was a giant war hundreds of years ago. Who won? No one cares, everything's terrible right now."
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Jun 14, 2020 19:56
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I don't think Three Houses specifically goes into it, but I think the series generally imply or at least don't contradict that Anima/Black Magic involves communing with nature spirits in the way Light/White Magic involves invoking a saint or goddess. Dark Magic does vary between settings, either drawing directly from evil dragons or gods, or invoking primeval forces that predate humanity. Three Houses probably falls into the latter grouping, given that everyone who learns Dark Magic is Agarthean, a victim of Agarthean experiments, or Hubert. The biggest question about spells in Fodlan should be: how the hell can spells have weight when nobody carries a tome into battle?
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Jun 14, 2020 21:39
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Did you picture the weight of tomes in previous games as mages carrying literal 50 kg doorstoppers? That's amazing. I've always thought of the "weight" as being more of a mental tax type when it comes to spells.
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Jun 14, 2020 21:59
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Light magic is heavier than anima in fe7 because nobody's going to cut out the irrelevant parts from Scripture
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Jun 14, 2020 22:23
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Airspace posted:To be fair to Dimitri the other 2/3rds started it. She's annihilating the hereditary system of power that's been running continually in Fodland for a thousand plus years with a non-hereditary one based on ability, including a public education system and government service examinations. That's a pretty big change! Trying to write it off with "LOL, someone could ignore all the changes (including the ones presumably put in play to prevent removing the new system)" is basically the same as saying that none of it matters because Fodland was annihilated by the STMC five minutes after the last epilogue played out. Sure, there's nothing in the game saying that it can't happen, but it's another devil's proof. El also, despite having a hereditary position, starts with very little actual power due to both Rhea and the Slithers. She also launches an assault against the central church, the one group accepted as being more powerful than the empire. A noble going against more powerful nobles can be a revolutionary, after all. Just ask Gilbert du Motier.
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Jun 14, 2020 22:24
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Amppelix posted:Did you picture the weight of tomes in previous games as mages carrying literal 50 kg doorstoppers? Yes? Dark magic is a literal rock
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Jun 14, 2020 22:39
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Amppelix posted:Did you picture the weight of tomes in previous games as mages carrying literal 50 kg doorstoppers? That's amazing. I've always thought of the "weight" as being more of a mental tax type when it comes to spells. No, but I will now. FE4 fire mages are clearly trying to get swole to impress the ladies. Only reason they would wield those tomes.
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Jun 14, 2020 22:43
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Amppelix posted:Did you picture the weight of tomes in previous games as mages carrying literal 50 kg doorstoppers? That's amazing. I've always thought of the "weight" as being more of a mental tax type when it comes to spells. Absolutely? After all, in the Tellius games weight is offset by str, so naturally it’s about lifting those books. (RIP PoR Soren’s noodle arms...)
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Jun 14, 2020 22:47
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nrook posted:I think Dimitri is just not a abstract thinker. He's the opposite of Edelgard the revolutionary in that respect; Edelgard sees the price of a status quo and decides it'd be abhorrent to allow it to continue. Dimitri sees the price of war and thinks it's murder to start one. He's really explicit about this; that's why he goes around murdering soldiers, he thinks war itself is a crime perpetrated against innocents and those who commit that crime deserve death. I'm not exactly a Dmitri Partisan or anything, I don't think there's a particularly definitive "good" ending but. It's pretty much text that Dmitri does devolve a decent amount of power to the people. "After his coronation, Dimitri spent his life reforming and ruling justly over Fódlan. He focused particularly on improving living situations for orphans and improving foreign relations. He was known for listening intently to the voices of all, and for instituting a new form of government in which the people were free to be active participants. He lived for his people and alongside them, and was thusly dubbed the Savior King." I mean that sounds a lot like constitutional monarchy or something to me. It's not like Dmitri is sweeping away all the old aristocratic privileges by any means, but I think sometimes people - not saying you specifically OP, just generally - understate how much he is open to inviting the participation of commoners into the government. It's far from perfect but its a substantially more meaningful change than happens on about half the routes.
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Jun 14, 2020 22:51
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Three Houses Dark Magic is extremely heavily implied to be Agarthan Techno-Wizardry. Everyone who has it is either an unholy creation of it (Edelgard and Lysithea) is explicitly receiving tech from them (Hubert and Jeritza) or a Slitherer themselves. The animations also have a lot of "glitchy" pixel stuff which really goes with the whole ancient technology thing. I also think people are mistakenly blaming Edelgard for starting the war. The public is meant to think that. But remember Edelgard is a prisoner of the Slitherers. They've been setting up this war for eons and created her specifically to be their Sword of the Creator adapter. She's merely trying to use the inevitable war for her own ends and betray her masters. You even see this in how different the war works in CF vs the other routes. Byleth is her key to freedom, and with them on her side she is able to start the war on completely different terms with a different justification. When Byleth doesn't join her she has no way to get out from the slithers thumb and launches the war with Slither troops (Including Monsters) a justification of revanchism, and Unprovoked invasions of foreign nations. Conversely on CF she undermines the Slithers by publishing and spreading a big political manifesto and more narrowly targeting the Church. And only really fights the other countries when despite her revealing the whole Dragon Conspiracy they side with the Church anyway.
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Jun 14, 2020 23:14
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