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Hedgehog Pie posted:Triple H being the kind of man he is (wasn't his "B+ player" remark to Daniel Bryan an obscure reference to something Dave Meltzer had said about him literally over a decade earlier?), I can totally believe that he had been reading all sorts of comments throughout 2002 about how he was only a fraction of the wrestler he was before his quad injury, hence he would pitch all these ridiculous ideas like having a 20-minute barn-burner with 2003 Scott Steiner. On the same card that had Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit in their primes no less! There's an alternate universe somewhere where Trips is the co-runner of the empire, instead of Super Chico
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Jun 16, 2020 21:41
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Randaconda posted:the worst part was Cena not really improving for an entire loving decade Why improve when you're guaranteed to be on top anyway?
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Jun 16, 2020 21:43
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IIRC didn't they insist on Steiner wrestling despite badly needing surgery on his foot?
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Jun 16, 2020 22:00
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El Gallinero Gros posted:IIRC didn't they insist on Steiner wrestling despite badly needing surgery on his foot? yeah, he had drop foot syndrome or something
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Jun 16, 2020 22:01
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Randaconda posted:the worst part was Cena not really improving for an entire loving decade Yeah but Cena became amazing when he was winding down his career.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:06
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Randaconda posted:the worst part was Cena not really improving for an entire loving decade It's true he was fantastic from 2007 to 2017.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:22
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MassRafTer posted:It's true he was fantastic from 2007 to 2017. Yeah, when I think of Cena, I think of other fantastic wrestlers, like Flair, HBK, Kenta Kobashi, Bryan Danielson and Chris Benoit. Cena totally belongs there.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:33
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Randaconda posted:Yeah, when I think of Cena, I think of other fantastic wrestlers, like Flair, HBK, Kenta Kobashi, Bryan Danielson and Chris Benoit. Cena totally belongs there. I'd say Cena is on the tier with guys like Hogan and Savage and Chono (and CM Punk for that matter) - Hall of Famers but will never be in any reasonable greatest of all time conversation.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:37
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Lid posted:I'd say Cena is on the tier with guys like Hogan and Savage and Chono (and CM Punk for that matter) - Hall of Famers but will never be in any reasonable greatest of all time conversation. I was talking about strictly in-ring.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:41
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Randaconda posted:Yeah, when I think of Cena, I think of other fantastic wrestlers, like Flair, HBK, Kenta Kobashi, Bryan Danielson and Chris Benoit. Cena totally belongs there. He definitely belongs with HBK, maybe not quite the others. But please tell me how this bad wrestler had the great matches with Umaga, the 56 minute match with HBK (Bret Hart couldn't even pull off a match this good for that long), the AJ Styles matches, the CM Punk matches, the Lashley match a time where Lashley had never had a good match let alone a great one, the Lesnar matches, the Edge matches, that great blow off with JBL one of the worst wrestlers of the aughts, the Owens matches and I could go on and on and on.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:42
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Randaconda posted:Yeah, when I think of Cena, I think of other fantastic wrestlers, like Flair, HBK, Kenta Kobashi, Bryan Danielson and Chris Benoit. Cena totally belongs there. Cena belongs on that list more than Benoit. Like you could have named thousands of different wrestlers but you went with a murderer.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:42
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MassRafTer posted:He definitely belongs with HBK, maybe not quite the others. Hmmm yes, carried by much better workers, and managed to pull an average to decent match out of JBL and Lashley. Truly, the greatest of all time.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:44
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John Cena never improved was funny in 2008 it's just trolling now.Randaconda posted:Hmmm yes, carried by much better workers, and managed to pull an average to decent match out of JBL and Lashley. Truly, the greatest of all time. Sure buddy. Carried by the great 2007 Bobby Lashley.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:44
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MassRafTer posted:John Cena never improved was funny in 2008 it's just trolling now. Sorry for having a differing opinion 
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Jun 16, 2020 22:45
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MassRafTer posted:He definitely belongs with HBK, maybe not quite the others. Cena had chemistry with pretty much everyone, and his I Quit match with JBL should be proof enough he can bring it in the ring with anyone. My gripe (and I think most others') is that he was the same character forever, and there was never a reason to sympathize with him, or think he was going to lose. Instead, most of my favorite things about his career feature him losing or getting destroyed.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:47
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Cena had a great match with RVD in 2006 so he's at least as good as Jerry Lynn
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Jun 16, 2020 22:47
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tbf Jamal was a good wrestler he was just given a poo poo gimmick with Umaga
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Jun 16, 2020 22:48
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Red posted:Cena had chemistry with pretty much everyone, and his I Quit match with JBL should be proof enough he can bring it in the ring with anyone. search forums 2006 Ctrl + f OVERCOME THE ODDS
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Jun 16, 2020 22:48
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Randaconda posted:Hmmm yes, carried by much better workers, and managed to pull an average to decent match out of JBL and Lashley. Truly, the greatest of all time. It's easier to think of it like this: You probably didn't care for his wrestling style or moveset, but even then, I think we can all agree his matches are extremely entertaining, even if we don't like the result or the angle. I mean, I've hated his booking until recently, but he doesn't lean on restholds too much, he keeps his opponents at a high pace, his matches rarely lag, the crowds are always hot, and there's always a story to the match. I can't recall the last time I saw him botch anything, he sells for everyone, and I can't recall the last time he made his opponent job in seconds like Lesnar did Kofi. I think he should have put Barrett over, but he did put over Bryan, Punk, Van Dam, etc.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:52
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Red posted:It's easier to think of it like this: You probably didn't care for his wrestling style or moveset, but even then, I think we can all agree his matches are extremely entertaining, even if we don't like the result or the angle. I especially enjoy the part where he stops selling totally!
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Jun 16, 2020 22:54
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Randaconda posted:I especially enjoy the part where he stops selling totally! yeah dude I love Sting too
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Jun 16, 2020 22:54
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Cena issues were being perpetual booked as an underdog despite looking like Matt Damon on steroids alongside extremely patterned matches with the Five Moves of Doom And while this may seem not important to me it is - his finishers both looked loving horrible. Growing up seeing kneeling firemans carry takeovers by Fit Finlay that a standing one was so devestating made no sense. Then you took into account Death Valley Drivers it Samoan drivers and it was just "the Batista bomb us so much better". This is my rant to lead into Daniel Bryan should use Cattle Mutilation again.
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Jun 16, 2020 22:55
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Lid posted:Cena issues were being perpetual booked as an underdog despite looking like Matt Damon on steroids alongside extremely patterned matches with the Five Moves of Doom He should have just used the Death Valley Driver, it looks way better
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Jun 16, 2020 22:59
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gotta admit "John Cena is a better wrestler than Shawn Michaels" is not something I was expecting to read today
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Jun 16, 2020 23:05
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Julio Cruz posted:gotta admit "John Cena is a better wrestler than Shawn Michaels" is not something I was expecting to read today He's obviously the best of all time, we were fools not to see it 
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Jun 16, 2020 23:08
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Julio Cruz posted:gotta admit "John Cena is a better wrestler than Shawn Michaels" is not something I was expecting to read today As good as, but when I look at what Shawn Michaels theories on wrestling have done to NXT main events I might upgrade Cena to "better than Shawn Michaels."
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Jun 16, 2020 23:12
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Alaois posted:yeah dude I love Sting too There's a difference between Sting deliberately no-selling strikes to get a massive pop for being a huge badass, and what Cena did, where he would get destroyed for 20 minutes, hit the finishing sequence (or just an out of nowhere finisher) and win, before he got up like nothing happened and celebrated. It was never framed the way Sting did it, it was always meant to be that he was struggling to, and I'm gonna use a phrase you might have heard once or twice before, OVERCOME THE ODDS! Cena's a great storyteller who thrived in the WWE style and whose weaknesses never hindered him as much as they could have (he's always had extremely sloppy fundamentals and was constantly overexposed because children bought his merch) and he did improve over his career but anybody who thinks he's on the same level as Flair or anybody in that ballpark is delusional.
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Jun 16, 2020 23:14
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TriffTshngo posted:There's a difference between Sting deliberately no-selling strikes to get a massive pop for being a huge badass, and what Cena did, where he would get destroyed for 20 minutes, hit the finishing sequence (or just an out of nowhere finisher) and win, before he got up like nothing happened and celebrated. It was never framed the way Sting did it, it was always meant to be that he was struggling to, and I'm gonna use a phrase you might have heard once or twice before, OVERCOME THE ODDS! *names the less than ten really good matches he's had to disprove your point* 
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Jun 16, 2020 23:16
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Randaconda posted:*names the less than ten really good matches he's had to disprove your point* It's one thing to lie about the fact that John Cena is a great wrestler and call it an opinion, it's another to lie about my list of 20 matches and say it is just ten.
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Jun 16, 2020 23:17
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Julio Cruz posted:gotta admit "John Cena is a better wrestler than Shawn Michaels" is not something I was expecting to read today You know, if you asked me, I'd probably say Bret's my all time favorite, but he just kind of gave up in WCW, and he really never clicked with some guys. Shawn pulled gold out of most anybody, with the only person he didn't seem to mesh with being Hennig. One of my favorite matches ever is that Shawn/Diesel fight with the fake leg, and if that isn't high praise for Shawn, I don't know what is. Cena is very good, but I don't think he can do the kinds of things Shawn did.
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Jun 16, 2020 23:32
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imagine complaining about “stops selling” when that’s been a staple of the babyface playbook for a lot longer than any of us has been alive
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Jun 17, 2020 00:24
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jesus WEP posted:imagine complaining about “stops selling” when that’s been a staple of the babyface playbook for a lot longer than any of us has been alive Theres a right and a wrong way not to comment on Cena here but think about when for example Seth Rollins stops selling. It doesnt come across as a fiery comeback as much as it might not have ever happened. I think their issue was Sting was fighting spirit whereas Cena was "time to make my comeback".
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Jun 17, 2020 00:29
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I think the biggest case for Cena being a really good worker is how bad the WWE main event scene has become since they moved on from Cena cause he's too old Like everything everybody says was bad about Cena's run is still in the current scene it's just way way worse
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Jun 17, 2020 00:32
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SatoshiMiwa posted:I think the biggest case for Cena being a really good worker is how bad the WWE main event scene has become since they moved on from Cena cause he's too old Yes but we can point to they put every egg in the Roman Reigns basket without developing foils or rivals of equal footing to Roman because MAKE ROMAN LOOK STRONG. I think everyone can agree Cena wasnt worthwhile until he got Edge.
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Jun 17, 2020 00:35
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The thing is, I don't think that's a Cena choice so much as WWE has a weird conception of when selling is OK. Think about how folk will take a massive beating in a gimmick match, be legit hurt, but do their entrance the next night selling none of it. The end of Cena/Bryan at Summerslam turns into a Korakuen hall main event, complete with stiff-rear end slaps to each other and fighting spirit and it's loving great, Cena could absolutely have worked that style had he been asked to, but WWE match formula is what it is.
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Jun 17, 2020 00:47
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It’s not Cena’s fault he was stronger and more resilient than all his chump rear end contemporaries
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Jun 17, 2020 01:15
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Gaz-L posted:WWE match formula is what it is. yeah, bad
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Jun 17, 2020 01:22
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Lid posted:I think everyone can agree Cena wasnt worthwhile until he got Edge. This, and they had him destroy guys people liked (Jericho, Christian) to the point where the crowd got behind Chris Masters and Carlito Caribbean Cool Colon.
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Jun 17, 2020 01:31
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John Cena.....is good
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Jun 17, 2020 01:35
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John Cena is Albanian
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Jun 17, 2020 02:37
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