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Yeah, I don't think most people understand what social workers actually do and the government systems they operate in. That said, my mum was an overnight emergency room intake social worker at a medium sized urban general hospital and managed to defuse a lot of potentially dangerous situations including being threatened with a big shard of glass one time without shooting a single patient! Hell, she didn't even tase any. But yeah, if the function of maintaining a racialised caste system and surplus labor through state violence is just shifted onto these 'support' agencies then the whole 'reformation' will be just that, re-forming policing under the guise of social services. This is why its hard to have much patience for 'what about bandits?' types of questions because they clearly lack an understanding of the social relationships that actually produce the modern police state (hint: its not to protect you from bandits), hopefully if anything comes from this moment at least there is a broader understanding of what we mean when we say that the oppressive structure of the police is part and parcel with the rest of our society. Craig Kilborn supremacy.
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Jun 17, 2020 07:35
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Crumbskull posted:Yeah, I don't think most people understand what social workers actually do and the government systems they operate in. That said, my mum was an overnight emergency room intake social worker at a medium sized urban general hospital and managed to defuse a lot of potentially dangerous situations including being threatened with a big shard of glass one time without shooting a single patient! Hell, she didn't even tase any. But yeah, if the function of maintaining a racialised caste system and surplus labor through state violence is just shifted onto these 'support' agencies then the whole 'reformation' will be just that, re-forming policing under the guise of social services. This is why its hard to have much patience for 'what about bandits?' types of questions because they clearly lack an understanding of the social relationships that actually produce the modern police state (hint: its not to protect you from bandits), hopefully if anything comes from this moment at least there is a broader understanding of what we mean when we say that the oppressive structure of the police is part and parcel with the rest of our society. Being honest I'm not going to be as kind to the interpretation to "the left" either when it comes to those places. While everything was hosed up there, the biggest was the total lack of accountability and laxness of the kids there. I was going to type more but it's a bit off topic and have a feeling that I will end up with a can of worms situation.
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Jun 17, 2020 07:48
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Yeah, that sounds like an opinion best kept to yourself, if I'm interpreting you correctly.
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Jun 17, 2020 07:51
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Disturbing. Emotional. Courageous. All of these things. https://twitter.com/ResisterSis20/status/1272859959588532228
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Jun 17, 2020 11:34
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By the end of that video there are what, somewhere between 8 and 10 cop cars on the scene? At least a dozen officers, a couple of whom decided to pull out rifles for no good reason at all since the guy was already kneeling and compliant. Nevermind that two of them were fumbling with the rifles so much that I half expected them to drop one. There was absolutely no justification for that level of force nor that many cops to show up for one guy who wasn't a threat to anybody. They all just wanted an excuse to drive fast, flash the lights, and play with their new toys to break up the monotony of what was otherwise an uneventful shift.
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Jun 17, 2020 13:19
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Mat Cauthon posted:By the end of that video there are what, somewhere between 8 and 10 cop cars on the scene? At least a dozen officers, a couple of whom decided to pull out rifles for no good reason at all since the guy was already kneeling and compliant. Nevermind that two of them were fumbling with the rifles so much that I half expected them to drop one. There was absolutely no justification for that level of force nor that many cops to show up for one guy who wasn't a threat to anybody. They all just wanted an excuse to drive fast, flash the lights, and play with their new toys to break up the monotony of what was otherwise an uneventful shift. Agreed. The only thing I can figure that might be unexplained is that the suspect was "known to police" due to having a long rap sheet for violent crime. That still doesn't justify the cops behaving the way they did. An overhaul of police training is so badly needed.
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Jun 17, 2020 14:54
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It's already trained in and then they go get separately trained in private for more of this poo poo. They need to all be fired. Start over with fresh recruits and a fresh training program
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Jun 17, 2020 15:49
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Well, if by overhaul you mean every last officer is fired and the entire system of law enforcement rebuilt from scratch then yes.
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Jun 17, 2020 15:50
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We'll have to ban all the old cop shows. Can't have that culture creeping back in
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Jun 17, 2020 15:58
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I'm not necessarily sure you would need to ban them, if you abolished the cops I think they're the kind of thing that would just quietly not be shown any more.
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Jun 17, 2020 16:01
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"I don't hear thank you enough anymore." https://twitter.com/rabiasquared/status/1273274989320515584 Officer Stacey just made herself go viral!
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Jun 17, 2020 17:30
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Pustulio posted:Well, if by overhaul you mean every last officer is fired and the entire system of law enforcement rebuilt from scratch then yes. Rebuilt by who?
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Jun 17, 2020 18:55
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Is this actually a real question? It is possible it is and I am going to take out on you something you don't deserve, but like, these discussions get dominated by people just "asking questions" when they themselves are perfectly capable of coming up with answers using a bit of critical thinking. This for example, our current system was created with the express purpose of being oppressive, racism is built into it. It is dominated by white people, heavily supports the rich, and it's members are on average less educated than the average person delivering pizza for a living. If we accept those facts and want to build a new system, who would you choose to do so? Would there perhaps be a lot of people involved? None of whom are associated with the old system? That's a start, maybe most of the people involved should be fairly well educated? What do we want from the new system? If our goal is truly crime prevention and harm reduction we need people who can teach that, so would perhaps educators be helpful? Legal experts? Sociology and psychology teachers or professors? We'll need it to be multi racial and as free of bias as we can, so many or even most of those people will need to be from minority, especially black, communities and also include gender and sexual minorities as well. Who do you think should do it?
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Jun 17, 2020 19:57
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Harold Fjord posted:We'll have to ban all the old cop shows. Can't have that culture creeping back in The gently caress is this poo poo?
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Jun 18, 2020 01:52
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Cops show are propaganda, basically. They create the impression that the cops solve crimes that need to be solved, which they mostly don't, they mostly don't solve those kinds of crimes and if they do they often don't do it properly, and most of their time is spent harassing people for no good reason.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:54
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OwlFancier posted:Cops show are propaganda, basically. They create the impression that the cops solve crimes that need to be solved, which they mostly don't, they mostly don't solve those kinds of crimes and if they do they often don't do it properly, and most of their time is spent harassing people for no good reason. I don't disagree with that. So we're moving from talking about abolishing police to now banning any show that portrays police in a way that we don't want? Sorry, is this the abolish police thread, or the tankie thread?
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Jun 18, 2020 01:56
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CocoaNuts posted:"I don't hear thank you enough anymore." She might not actually be a cop, funnily. https://twitter.com/chrismayf/status/1273392421888569344
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Jun 18, 2020 02:00
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't disagree with that. So we're moving from talking about abolishing police to now banning any show that portrays police in a way that we don't want? Would you suggest that perhaps if you were trying to tackle, say, racism, that you should perhaps want to avoid broadcasting, say, Birth of a Nation?
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Jun 18, 2020 02:01
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't disagree with that. So we're moving from talking about abolishing police to now banning any show that portrays police in a way that we don't want? We should move away from showing police in an inaccurate way to glorify them and justify their ridiculous budgets. Police shows and movies aren't real dude. Almost everything you're seeing is made up and feeds a bizarre idea white America has that police aren't a horribly broken and racist institution. quote:Sorry, is this the abolish police thread, or the tankie thread? I'm sorry we implied the police might be bad in the Abolish Police thread. Don't clutch the pearls too hard you might scratch them.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:04
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Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit. Tackle the actual propaganda in the news and poo poo, like parroting whatever BS the police provide and using the passive voice in every incident where a cop kills somebody.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:19
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Trapick posted:Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit. Tackle the actual propaganda in the news and poo poo, like parroting whatever BS the police provide and using the passive voice in every incident where a cop kills somebody. https://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/06/scalia-and-torture/227548/ Unless you're a US supreme court justice, who apparently thinks 24 was a documentary. If you don't think that movies and shows about cops are propaganda then you really do not understand the effect that films like dirty harry, death wish etc had on the perception of crime and the proper response to it.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:22
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Trapick posted:Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit. Actually people do, tons do, and it's been studied. Media influences people and that's hardly a controversial thing to say. I guarantee you that unless you work in medicine, there's a ton of things that are just completely made up that you believe are true about treating people. Unless you're a gun nut, odds are you believe silencers work way better than they do. I've shown a ton of people videos that apparently shock them on that subject. quote:Tackle the actual propaganda in the news and poo poo, like parroting whatever BS the police provide and using the passive voice in every incident where a cop kills somebody. Both of these things are propaganda.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:22
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The entire godawful narrative of the cowboy cop who breaks the rules but gets results or goes on insane vigilante rampages when the law won't touch the bad guys is ubiquitous in our media and I cannot imagine it doesn't have a corrosive effect on our law enforcement. Every cop grew up watching Dirty Harry.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:24
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OwlFancier posted:Would you suggest that perhaps if you were trying to tackle, say, racism, that you should perhaps want to avoid broadcasting, say, Birth of a Nation? Not broadcasting something is not the same as banning it, and you know that fully well. Jaxyon posted:We should move away from showing police in an inaccurate way to glorify them and justify their ridiculous budgets. This is not the same as banning them. Trapick posted:Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit. Tackle the actual propaganda in the news and poo poo, like parroting whatever BS the police provide and using the passive voice in every incident where a cop kills somebody. 100%. We shouldn't be banning lovely television shows because we feel it could influence culture in a way we don't like. If that's the case, then we should be banning poo poo for The West Wing because it portrays Republicans as people who can be reasoned with.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:24
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fool of sound posted:The entire godawful narrative of the cowboy cop who breaks the rules but gets results or goes on insane vigilante rampages when the law won't touch the bad guys is ubiquitous in our media and I cannot imagine it doesn't have a corrosive effect on our law enforcement. Every cop grew up watching Dirty Harry. Yeah, no doubt. That is not the same as saying, "no one should ever be allowed to watch Dirty Harry again, ever".
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Jun 18, 2020 02:25
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I don't think that it's worth fixating on specifically 'banning' the shows, CS.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:25
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CelestialScribe posted:100%. We shouldn't be banning lovely television shows because we feel it could influence culture in a way we don't like. Yeah we should. quote:If that's the case, then we should be banning poo poo for The West Wing because it portrays Republicans as people who can be reasoned with. I agree, we should it's done incredible amounts of harm to politically gullible people.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:26
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fool of sound posted:I don't think that it's worth fixating on specifically 'banning' the shows, CS. I mean what's likely to happen is they should be reduced heavily at the network level without involving the government but CS has now moved his goalposts from disagreeing to semantics.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:27
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CelestialScribe posted:Not broadcasting something is not the same as banning it, and you know that fully well. Uhm... banning something is a method of ensuring it is not broadcast... As I said I think if police abolition were to become popular then police shows would largely die out without requring any particular measure, as they would no longer reflect the public consciousness of policing and would thus likely not be the most profitable thing to spend money on, they would be relegated to being marketed to bitter old people, and after a time there would be no cultural reference for them and they would fall out of the cultural consciousness the way all old TV shows do. But I certainly don't object to the idea, if you can get them to be taken out of broadcast that would help dismantle the false perception of policing?
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Jun 18, 2020 02:28
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Jaxyon posted:I mean what's likely to happen is they should be reduced heavily at the network level without involving the government but CS has now moved his goalposts from disagreeing to semantics. I'm responding to the word "banned" as it was used specifically. How else should I be interpreting it? fool of sound posted:I don't think that it's worth fixating on specifically 'banning' the shows, CS. ...this was the specific word that was used. Should I interpret "banning" as something else? Jaxyon posted:Yeah we should. You're insane.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:28
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OwlFancier posted:Uhm... banning something is a method of ensuring it is not broadcast... Right now, I can jump on Amazon and buy a DVD of Birth of a Nation, if I want to. What you're suggesting is that no one, ever, should be allowed to do that with any cop show. Unless you mean something dramatically different by the word "ban".
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Jun 18, 2020 02:29
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Ok, let's do this instead: discuss the negative effects of lovely media on policing, not if they should specifically be outlawed by the government or not. That is not a useful conversation.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:31
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CelestialScribe posted:Right now, I can jump on Amazon and buy a DVD of Birth of a Nation, if I want to. What you're suggesting is that no one, ever, should be allowed to do that with any cop show. Unless you mean something dramatically different by the word "ban". Are you familiar with the concept that a ban can be situational. You don't need to send the army round to shoot everyone who has a copy to effective restrict access to a thing by limiting its availability. If you, by some method, actively restrict the broadcast of something on popular channels, by getting them to ban it, perhaps, you have effectively limited the visibility of the thing.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:31
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Jaxyon posted:I mean what's likely to happen is they should be reduced heavily at the network level without involving the government but CS has now moved his goalposts from disagreeing to semantics. Well, it and other kinds of 'bans' would need to happen that way if the government were to have no law enforcement arm.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:32
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OwlFancier posted:Are you familiar with the concept that a ban can be situational. You don't need to send the army round to shoot everyone who has a copy to effective restrict access to a thing by restricting its availability. So, what are you suggesting then? That television networks can't broadcast it? That it can't be sold? That people can't have it? You need to be more specific with the word "ban" and not rely on people to understand the particular nuance of what you mean.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:33
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CelestialScribe posted:So, what are you suggesting then? That television networks can't broadcast it? That it can't be sold? That people can't have it? You need to be more specific with the word "ban" and not rely on people to understand the particular nuance of what you mean. Get TV networks to agree to not show blatant cop propaganda. It doesn't have to be a government decree. The point is, what they are showing now is propaganda, and is damaging.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:35
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CelestialScribe posted:So, what are you suggesting then? That television networks can't broadcast it? That it can't be sold? That people can't have it? You need to be more specific with the word "ban" and not rely on people to understand the particular nuance of what you mean. Again I have no particular interest in it, I think it would happen anyway, you already see plenty of outlets restricting their content because they can see which way the wind is blowing and performative wokeness is a good marketing strategy nowadays. I also don't think that state censorship would happen before individual providers decided to do it of their own volition either, because law enforcement is the arm of the state and the state are the last people who want to get rid of it, they certainly won't pass a law to abolish its propaganda before they abolish it. But if somehow you could magic such a law into effect I certainly wouldn't object to it. And if you can successfully lobby individual carriers to remove the content, that may be helpful.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:36
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CelestialScribe posted:So, what are you suggesting then? That television networks can't broadcast it? That it can't be sold? That people can't have it? You need to be more specific with the word "ban" and not rely on people to understand the particular nuance of what you mean. It seems a little paradoxical to me to say that law enforcement is not a necessary government function and then in the same breath call for unpopular bans.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:38
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silence_kit posted:It seems a little paradoxical to me to say that law enforcement is not a necessary government function and then in the same breath call for unpopular bans. Who's arguing against law enforcement in this thread?
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Jun 18, 2020 02:39
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Law enforcement against individuals is not a necessary government function, law enforcement against capitalist organizations, however, I am quite in favour of 
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