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Part of the issue is that games tend to do warm fuzzy things to our brain chemistry, especially economic number-goes-up games. If you take a game that's basically a positive feedback loop and paint a really ugly historical theme on top of it the result is going to be pretty hosed up no matter how much you say "P.S. yeah this stuff was bad!" If a game is going to portray a historically fraught subject then at a minimum it should respect the subject matter by trying to bring some of that tension into the game. Twilight Struggle definitely glosses over a lot of nastiness but it's not really a Fun game. It's tense and nervewracking and punishing.
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Jun 17, 2020 18:26
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It strikes me as an incoherent position to say that a wargame where you can play as nazi germany, and the goal is to win, is somehow more tasteless than playing a game where the colonization is present, and the goal is to profit. l think representing colonization as what it was is preferable to the Puerto Rico style fig-leaf eupehemism. I am not arguing about the Colonization game that was brought up specifically: I haven't played it and can't make claims to it. But if you can get an understanding of the operating paradigm of the systems that created these immense moral evils through game play, which I think you can, and which does seem to be at least part of the premise of Wargames and COIN games, then that should not be off limits to other historical events. It might require a way of handling those subjects that we haven't seen yet explored in a game space, though.
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Jun 17, 2020 18:53
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I don't think the Colonization game actually got published? And yes wargame publishers have gotten away with a lot over the years. I don't necessarily want the games themselves to change, but they need to have information in the game rules pertaining to what was actually happening to the world and the civilians involved. 18xx has the same problem. There's never any mention of the people and companies stranded when you cause a company to either go bankrupt or lose all of its trains without true recourse to recover. I try to make sure I understand the history before playing historical games so that at least I have context.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:03
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Mayveena posted:I don't think the Colonization game actually got published? And yes wargame publishers have gotten away with a lot over the years. I don't necessarily want the games themselves to change, but they need to have information in the game rules pertaining to what was actually happening to the world and the civilians involved. Colonial got published, I have a copy of it. Like I say it's a pretty good game mechanically.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:22
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I guess I’m thinking of a different game. Thanks for the info.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:25
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Impermanent posted:It strikes me as an incoherent position to say that a wargame where you can play as nazi germany, and the goal is to win, is somehow more tasteless than playing a game where the colonization is present, and the goal is to profit. l think representing colonization as what it was is preferable to the Puerto Rico style fig-leaf eupehemism. I am not arguing about the Colonization game that was brought up specifically: I haven't played it and can't make claims to it. But if you can get an understanding of the operating paradigm of the systems that created these immense moral evils through game play, which I think you can, and which does seem to be at least part of the premise of Wargames and COIN games, then that should not be off limits to other historical events. It might require a way of handling those subjects that we haven't seen yet explored in a game space, though. I#m going to tell you right now this is pretty much just bullshit (no offence) really. Playing a game for fun with your friends is not teaching you about the great moral evils though game play. Mainly because there's no moral judgement, you get points for trading slave, points go up maybe you win maybe you lose but there's no presentation of moral judgement in any boardgame. Worse there is social pressure based on the social contract to be cool with it. That to make a fuss about things isn't cool because everyone is having fun so it's all good. What do we lose as a society for not publishing games where you buy and sell slaves? Nothing at all.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:26
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Mayveena posted:I guess I’m thinking of a different game. Thanks for the info. I think the name just got a bit mixed it, it's full name is Colonial: Europe's Empires Overseas, came out in 2011. I'm just noting this one because it's a pretty egregious example of the sort of thing I'm talking about.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:30
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Aramoro posted:Worse there is social pressure based on the social contract to be cool with it. That to make a fuss about things isn't cool because everyone is having fun so it's all good. What do we lose as a society for not publishing games where you buy and sell slaves? Nothing at all. if you're springing slavery: The board game on your friends and then giving everyone a "this is cool" look before you play then I agree you're probably not doing this in a sense that is going to really lead to any kind of unique, systems-driven learning. Also quote:Mainly because there's no moral judgement, you get points for trading slave, points go up maybe you win maybe you lose but there's no presentation of moral judgement in any boardgame. I don't understand this. Would it be okay if there was a bioshock-style GOOD END v BAD END if you did/didn't engage in war crimes? What's the age you're targeting for this?
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Jun 17, 2020 19:44
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Impermanent posted:
Theres no way you come out of playing a boardgame with any more understanding that slavery is bad than you went into it with. There are scales falling from your eyes moments as you pick up a couple more black cubes and exchange them for coins. You don't make moral choices in boardgames because it doesn't matter, you make choices that advance your position in the game according to the game designers own morality. If you play High Frontier you better be happy that Communism is awful, no matter what you personally think about it.
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Jun 17, 2020 19:57
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Mayveena posted:18xx has the same problem. There's never any mention of the people and companies stranded when you cause a company to either go bankrupt or lose all of its trains without true recourse to recover. I try to make sure I understand the history before playing historical games so that at least I have context. And of course railroads back then were killing people at astonishing rates --- as many as 4,500 in a year -- during a time when the laws for the most part assumed that all accidents were the fault of the worker (and therefore got nothing for the injury or death).
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Jun 17, 2020 20:02
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Aramoro posted:Theres no way you come out of playing a boardgame with any more understanding that slavery is bad than you went into it with. There are scales falling from your eyes moments as you pick up a couple more black cubes and exchange them for coins. You don't make moral choices in boardgames because it doesn't matter, you make choices that advance your position in the game according to the game designers own morality. i think there's worth in engaging with a simulation of a thing to understand how decisions and choices are made within that ideological framework - I don't really need a game to inform my morality, but it can provide an experience where i understand the specific cost benefit analysis amoral actors use, even if just in a highly abstracted way.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:07
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Is there a game like 18xx but about the US air mail fuckery of the early XX century?
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Jun 17, 2020 20:09
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Impermanent posted:i think there's worth in engaging with a simulation of a thing to understand how decisions and choices are made within that ideological framework - I don't really need a game to inform my morality, but it can provide an experience where i understand the specific cost benefit analysis amoral actors use, even if just in a highly abstracted way. Boardgames are not simulations. Do you really need to play a game so you can workout the cost benfift of owning slaves? That's what you need as a teaching tool so you can finally understand the mysteries of it? Or is it more that it's way to excuse it? Pretend I posted the RainbowDashHolocaust.jpg here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 17, 2020 20:14
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Aramoro posted:Boardgames are not simulations. Do you really need to play a game so you can workout the cost benfift of owning slaves? That's what you need as a teaching tool so you can finally understand the mysteries of it? Or is it more that it's way to excuse it? what the gently caress dude
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Jun 17, 2020 20:17
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Pan-Am looks good but the dice roll to determine which player they buy routes from seems like a critical flaw? It seems like every game from Pros. Hall has to insert a die effect that kills the game. As to the current discussion I’ll paraphrase Bigny again: “I’m generally ok with WW2 games because society doesn’t have a real debate about the Nazis being good guys. Contrast that with the Civil War and a large part of America lionizing the confederates and I’m not ok with portraying or playing that.” The context matters, as does how the game presents the topic. This Guilty Land is a good example of a game that handles it well. Pax Ren is another that despite Phil’s intentions does show a pretty Bros world view of the time period. And no, not all game tables play games for mindless fun and happy go lucky atmosphere, we’ve definitely had serious plays of games that involved serious subject matter. I mentioned FitL, but An Infamous Traffic is another good example. It’s a ridiculous and silly game but a few turns in we were talking about what it represented and how dark and hosed that was. Boardgames are a broad enough hobby that just like movies can and should provide a variety of topics and experiences to engage with. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 20:17
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Bottom Liner posted:Pan-Am looks good but the dice roll to determine which player they buy routes from seems like a critical flaw? It seems like every game from Pros. Hall has to insert a die effect that kills the game. The die doesn't doesn't determine who gets bought from, it determines the direction and speed at which Pan Am expands from Miami. If you claim routes ahead of the expansion, you will eventually be bought out. You can also ignore the expansion if you want to.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:25
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We should probably try and approach discussions assuming good faith on all sides instead of assuming because someone is exploring a topic that they def. want to do a racism right now.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:25
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SoftNum posted:We should probably try and approach discussions assuming good faith on all sides instead of assuming because someone is exploring a topic that they def. want to do a racism right now. I would say in a game like Archpeligo, Puerto Rico or Colonial you're not exploring a topic really. None of them are games about slavery, they are games which just have it as a mechanic. I'm not exploring the topic of tuk tuks playing Cinque Terre.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:36
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Pfister's made some good games but Maracaibo has some questionable stuff. And if you want to talk about a game ignoring colonialism, I don't see myself playing Mombasa again 
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Jun 17, 2020 20:41
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Aramoro posted:I would say in a game like Archpeligo, Puerto Rico or Colonial you're not exploring a topic really. None of them are games about slavery, they are games which just have it as a mechanic. I'm not exploring the topic of tuk tuks playing Cinque Terre. You definitely are exploring the topic of cold war era paranoia and domino theory playing TS, though. And more directly exploring COIN playing... COINs. And you never addressed the earlier times Meltwater was brought up, either.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:45
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Some Numbers posted:The die doesn't doesn't determine who gets bought from, it determines the direction and speed at which Pan Am expands from Miami. If you claim routes ahead of the expansion, you will eventually be bought out. Ah ok thanks for clarifying. I’ll keep it on my list to try.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:49
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Like I saw there are no hard and fast rules, you have to look at each game as it comes. I hope that publishers look more critically at themes in games to see if that the sort of thing they want to be promoting. I've not played Meltwater but I've heard great things about it. But is anyone really going to say they learnt anything about the world when they were suppressing the rebel natives in Archipelago?
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Jun 17, 2020 20:56
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Aramoro posted:I would say in a game like Archpeligo, Puerto Rico or Colonial you're not exploring a topic really. None of them are games about slavery, they are games which just have it as a mechanic. I'm not exploring the topic of tuk tuks playing Cinque Terre. I really like the traitor in Archipelago. I think it shows some sensitivity to a subject that in the past was too often simply railroaded through.
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Jun 17, 2020 20:59
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Aramoro posted:Like I saw there are no hard and fast rules, you have to look at each game as it comes. I hope that publishers look more critically at themes in games to see if that the sort of thing they want to be promoting. I've not played Meltwater but I've heard great things about it. But is anyone really going to say they learnt anything about the world when they were suppressing the rebel natives in Archipelago? sure - that's not my point. my point is there can be educational value if approached in the correct way. Arkwright implicitly has an understanding of the relationship of capital to labor in how the rush to reduce labor costs by automating factory processes also reduces demand by putting people out of work. Games can have this kind of systemic understanding of first and second order effects be made highly visible in a way that other mediums can't. Understanding systemic injustices - the broader kinds that brutalize a continent in the name of wealth - can be made easier if this kind of framework is used. I don't think that any of the examples you've listed (especially not puerto rico, which i think is the worst of the three in how it euphemizes the slave trade while still including it) do that, but I hold out the possibility that something could. edit: and I agree with Mayveena - I'm not sure Archipelago belongs in that category of obviously bad treatments. The artwork for the rebels in that game is rough but as a system its much more respectful, in its portrayal of the agency of the colonized people with a possible player-as-surrogate for them. Impermanent fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 21:02
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I think there's definitely teaching value in games that represent the economic advantages of slavery, colonialism, and exploitation of labor. A big problem with most people's understanding of racism is that they center it on individual belief rather than systems. I enjoy Brass as a game more than I enjoy Arkwright as a game, but I appreciate that Arkwright makes you--to some small degree--see how much suffering you caused to real human beings in order to win. We all agree that there are limits to how much you can learn about the real world from playing a game. I don't think the solution is to just ignore history as a topic or to not call for more thoughtful treatment. Edit: I'm a bit all over the place here, but I think Spirit Island is a great example of a game absolutely failing in its teaching intentions. Of course the creators wanted to counter the traditional boardgame approach of making the players the gleeful colonizers. But in Spirit Island, the players are not the invaded and colonized people, they are fantasy gods representing the abstract concept of land, and one of their tools for winning is exploiting and killing the actual people just as harshly as the colonizers do. CaptainRightful fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jun 17, 2020 |
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Jun 17, 2020 23:10
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I might be misremembering but I think R Eric Reuss addressed that in an interview and originally you did play the natives. I think he specifically said that the island starts with corruption specifically to show that they are humans exploiting the land too, but that they have a balance and understanding with the spirits protecting it which gets thrown off by the invaders.
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Jun 18, 2020 00:00
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OK so over the weekend Vital Lacerda tweeted about his dismay about having the Christopher Columbus statue overturned. I had a conversation with him about this which I will keep private but the result was that I blocked him from my Facebook timeline where he'd been for a few years now. You folks know I'm anti-racist. And I just won't have people who have racist beliefs on my FB timeline. Mayveena fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 18, 2020 |
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Jun 18, 2020 00:11
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Bottom Liner posted:I really like Mark from SVWAG's take on TS in that he sees it as a complete satire and takedown of cold war politics and policies. I mean, it is. The way influence spread (to adjacent countries only) is literally built from Cold War Domino theory - which is heavily disputed. It's supposed to make you act like a US National Security Council Advisor by baking into the mindset of the game that the Soviets "Spread" from adjacent country to adjacent country -> And you're supposed to nip this in the bud by eradicating all soviet influence in a region before it takes off.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:47
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CaptainRightful posted:Edit: I'm a bit all over the place here, but I think Spirit Island is a great example of a game absolutely failing in its teaching intentions. Of course the creators wanted to counter the traditional boardgame approach of making the players the gleeful colonizers. But in Spirit Island, the players are not the invaded and colonized people, they are fantasy gods representing the abstract concept of land, and one of their tools for winning is exploiting and killing the actual people just as harshly as the colonizers do. What teaching intentions, exactly? Clearly SI intends to be subversive, but I've never seen it as educational or taking a strong moral stance one way or another.
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Jun 18, 2020 01:49
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Bottom Liner posted:I might be misremembering but I think R Eric Reuss addressed that in an interview and originally you did play the natives. I think he specifically said that the island starts with corruption specifically to show that they are humans exploiting the land too, but that they have a balance and understanding with the spirits protecting it which gets thrown off by the invaders. I don't know if it's changed from the original development but canonically the starting blight is supposed to represent the spirits' opening salvo when they panic and overreact to the humans. The event deck in Branch & Claw (which was very much an "intended as part of the game but told by the publisher to spin it off" expansion) does help since it allows the Dahan to act on their own, sometimes greatly to the detriment of the spirits. Although this does not exactly help engender feelings of cooperation and respect... I think the anti-colonial theme holds up OK if you think of it in terms of having two distinct populations native to the island (spirits and Dahan) which are both victims of colonization struggling against the colonizers in their own ways. Overall, yeah, it doesn't do the best job and it's not really first and foremost a game about anti-colonial viewpoints. It's a tough topic to do justice, though, because making a game about plucky natives fighting off numerically and technologically superior colonizers plays into imperialist Noble Savage bullshit; putting the players in the role of fantasy nature spirits sidesteps a lot of baggage.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:13
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tomdidiot posted:I mean, it is. The way influence spread (to adjacent countries only) is literally built from Cold War Domino theory - which is heavily disputed. I don't think there's really a way to make a good 2-player game about the Cold War without internalizing the Allen Dulles fever-dream fantasies of domino theory(the Soviet fever dream would be a VPG states of siege solitaire game).
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Jun 18, 2020 02:18
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Bottom Liner posted:I might be misremembering but I think R Eric Reuss addressed that in an interview and originally you did play the natives. I think he specifically said that the island starts with corruption specifically to show that they are humans exploiting the land too, but that they have a balance and understanding with the spirits protecting it which gets thrown off by the invaders. I mean this with utmost friendliness: “the natives” is a bit old fashioned these days, I think the most appropriate term would be indigenous (or even native peoples). Similar to “third world” being replaced with “developing world”
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Jun 18, 2020 02:23
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Panzeh posted:I don't think there's really a way to make a good 2-player game about the Cold War without internalizing the Allen Dulles fever-dream fantasies of domino theory(the Soviet fever dream would be a VPG states of siege solitaire game). I think there is value in presenting the fever dream and then saying 'okay having internalised that...do you think that was real or were these dudes insane?'
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Jun 18, 2020 02:24
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Mayveena posted:OK so over the weekend Vital Lacerda tweeted about his dismay about having the Christopher Columbus statue overturned. I had a conversation with him about this which I will keep private but the result was that I blocked him from my Facebook timeline where he'd been for a few years now. I get that many people aren't familiar with how awful Columbus was. I don't get people learning how awful he was and still defending his place in the American pantheon.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:13
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Lord Of Texas posted:What teaching intentions, exactly? Clearly SI intends to be subversive, but I've never seen it as educational or taking a strong moral stance one way or another. Don't know if you're arguing in good faith here, but SI is routinely held up as one of the few boardgames taking a strong moral stance against colonialism. I think one of the weirdest things about it is that the colonizers are named after real historical empires but the colonized are an invention. Straight White Shark posted:It's a tough topic to do justice, though, because making a game about plucky natives fighting off numerically and technologically superior colonizers plays into imperialist Noble Savage bullshit; putting the players in the role of fantasy nature spirits sidesteps a lot of baggage. Yeah, this gets to the heart of it. I personally prefer a game that accurately and honestly represents the historical reality of colonialism to a revenge fantasy. But I understand the appeal of the latter.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:16
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Bottom Liner posted:I might be misremembering but I think R Eric Reuss addressed that in an interview and originally you did play the natives. I think he specifically said that the island starts with corruption specifically to show that they are humans exploiting the land too, but that they have a balance and understanding with the spirits protecting it which gets thrown off by the invaders. I think this might be the interview? Haven't listened to it in some time. https://thethoughtfulgamer.com/2018/06/13/podcast-episode-33-a-conversation-with-eric-reuss/
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Jun 18, 2020 03:27
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Stickman posted:Pretty much every game that pretends to be “teaching” something about the economic forces driving slavery/colonialism/etc, also abstracts away all the misery and destruction that resulted from those systems. And the economic factors themselves to the point that there’s really not much applicable to real-world history or economics. Right, boardgames aren't great at emotional experiences full stop.* But by the same token, novels about colonialism aren't a good fit for data on, for instance, the number of people enslaved or killed by the colonisers. *Ultimately, I don't think rules can convey morality - that would rely on the just world fallacy - doing this relies on e.g. photos and background information, but that's not what you really engage with when you play.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:29
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Mayveena posted:OK so over the weekend Vital Lacerda tweeted about his dismay about having the Christopher Columbus statue overturned. I had a conversation with him about this which I will keep private but the result was that I blocked him from my Facebook timeline where he'd been for a few years now. It blows my mind that someone who is otherwise so smart could be so ignorant. Columbus's crimes are indisputable in this day and age. I'm of direct Spanish descent, but you're not going to see me complaining about pulling down statues of Hernan Cortes or Ponce De Leon for crying out loud.' Makes my decision to sell off his work in my collection a little easier, I suppose.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:32
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CaptainRightful posted:Yeah, this gets to the heart of it. I personally prefer a game that accurately and honestly represents the historical reality of colonialism to a revenge fantasy. But I understand the appeal of the latter. Boy, that game would be a hoot. Whoever gets genocided the least wins!
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Jun 18, 2020 03:50
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The only way I can see something like slavery working, in good conscience, in a game is if it were introduced with trade offs which represent the different dimensions of it as an institution and different people's reactions to it For a VERY quick example which I just pulled off the top of my head, historically there were anti-slavery marketing campaigns ("slavery-free sugar", eg) so suppose in Food Chain Magnate a restaurant owner could institute slavery, which means they doesn't have to pay their non-management staff, but if other players start an "ethics" marketing campaign, then they get a penalty in the distance/price calculation against non-slavery restaurants as consumers start thinking about travelling farther to avoid the ethical implications. and if the restaurant is not within enough tiles of a police station they get justifiably murdered by their staff and are eliminated from t he game Really to show some kind of in-game consequence for the decision to use slaves might be one way to go. Mind you then it just reduces the human element all to a cost-benefit analysis, which is the problem, but then that's what many games really are anyway - cost-benefit analysis puzzles. I'm not sure what the larger implications are of that. At least in this way some of those consequences can be represented in the language of the game instead of just as a note in the appendix that nobody reads.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:54
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